Apple Again Hits Back at Nokia in Patent Dispute

[Vmaatta]

And I'm sure the object of scorn being Finnish in this case has nothing to do with it.

I'm an iPhone user and ridicule Nokia myself .

 

[Vmaatta]

1. Declare Finland a terrorist state
2. Send in troops
3. Bomb them into stone age
4. "Rebuild" using US companies ONLY

Problem solved!!!!

Not really. This approach has never worked for the US. In the end, you guys are always surprised that not everybody wants to live in Disneyland, eat Donuts and be a worker-slave without rights for one Dollar per hour during daytime.

I'm not so sure it'd work either. Last time I checked it was freezing outside and it's us finns who've trained US army about winter warfare... something like 40 years ago. The tactics have changed a bit .

 

[robbyx]

None of that has anything to do with the lawsuits, even if it were true. I'm an iPhone user but not everyone want's such a phone. That kind of phones just aren't "the market". And Nokia trying to get into US market is a running joke. But there's more than the US and nothing removes the fact that Nokia are still the leading mobile phone company.

I never said everyone wanted an iPhone, although I think it's safe to say that the iPhone has radically changed the public's perception of what a mobile phone can be. Ultimately, I think everyone does want a "smart phone" (ie: mini computer). And even if they don't today, they will in the next few years as the product category matures.

As for Nokia, the writing is on the wall. They have a terrible UI and there's nothing "cool" about their brand. Their marketshare will continue to erode around the world until they deliver better products. All this patent litigation wreaks of a company that would rather litigate than innovate. As I clearly stated in my earlier post, I have no opinion on the validity of their claims. I do think, however, that if they spend more time making better products and less time acting like the Microsoft of the mobile phone world, they might find increased success.

 

[ChazUK]

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None of that has anything to do with the lawsuits, even if it were true. I'm an iPhone user but not everyone want's such a phone. That kind of phones just aren't "the market". And Nokia trying to get into US market is a running joke. But there's more than the US and nothing removes the fact that Nokia are still the leading mobile phone company.

I never said everyone wanted an iPhone, although I think it's safe to say that the iPhone has radically changed the public's perception of what a mobile phone can be. Ultimately, I think everyone does want a "smart phone" (ie: mini computer). And even if they don't today, they will in the next few years as the product category matures.

As for Nokia, the writing is on the wall. They have a terrible UI and there's nothing "cool" about their brand. Their marketshare will continue to erode around the world until they deliver better products. All this patent litigation wreaks of a company that would rather litigate than innovate. As I clearly stated in my earlier post, I have no opinion on the validity of their claims. I do think, however, that if they spend more time making better products and less time acting like the Microsoft of the mobile phone world, they might find increased success.

I'm sorry but you can't innovate your way out of a situation where someone has used your technology without paying for it.

What do you expect Nokia to do with Apple? Let them get away with it?

 

[rikesh]

I'm inclined to believe that Nokia is asking something Apple deems unfair

Nokia is losing marketshare. They aren't making products that people want to buy. They may have a case against Apple, and Apple may have a case against them. I don't know. But I do know that Nokia's products just aren't "cool"...

Or in this case, try to thwart a competitor with superior products...because you can't come up with any compelling products of your own.

And so on...

These kinds of comments are predictable on an Apple fan forum. But, as some posters before me have already pointed out: try not to be blinded by your love for Apple. Consider the possibility that they haven't come up with every single innovation since the beginning of time.

Got to Finnish (no pun intended) with this one:

I'm and iPhone user and ridicule Nokia myself .

I'm an iPhone user and I ridicule you.

But let's not get childish like Nokia and Apple!

 

[Lara F]

The world is not the US. Nokia devoted their whole CES keynote on bringing phones to developing countries. Which might not benefit me, but I do respect it. Their marketshare here sucks for good reasons but that doesn't equal a failing company. Not everyone needs a smartphone and I've heard Symbian said to be the best non smartphone UI (which coming from Verizon I can well imagine).

 

[macduke]

Do you really believe this nonsense or do you create it at your weekly fanboy meetings? Nokia sold 113 million phones in the 1st quarter of 2009 alone. And Apple has sold how many since 2007???? And please, don't rant on about "profit share" (Which means a company is selling fewer items but making more money because they are overcharging consumers) or "Mindshare" (what economics class is that taught in???)...

Corporations aim to sell a lot of widgets and make a lot of profit. "Being Cool" is important to fanboys I suppose, but corporations who strive for it only exists in your little twisted reality.

Nothing you said is based on fact...

Holy crap you noobs are annoying!! Actually no, it's just based on plain sales figures. Do I have to conduct an entire research project to fill you guys in? You would know all this if you ever read MacRumors or AppleInsider!

NEW YORK TIMES, 10-16-09:

BERLIN — Nokia, the world’s largest cellphone maker, reported a $1.36 billion loss in the third quarter on Thursday as it wrote down the value of its wireless networks venture by $1.35 billion and global sales declined 20 percent.

The company said that its leading share of the global cellphone market remained unchanged at 38 percent. But it acknowledged that its lead in smartphones, the fastest-growing segment of the market, had fallen to 35 percent, from 41 percent, losing ground to Apple’s iPhone and Research in Motion’s BlackBerry devices.

Nokia’s quarterly loss was in contrast to a profit of $1.63 billion a year earlier.

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/16/technology/companies/16nokia.html

From AppleInsider:

As Nokia has lost market share to competitors Apple and Research in Motion, the market leader has fought back and hopes to maintain its position atop the cell phone business. This week, Rick Simonson, Nokia's executive vice president, spoke with India's The Economic Times and said his company hopes to be "at par" with Apple and RIM in smartphone sales by 2011.

"Not only we draw level with them," he said, "we will also win the war because, in addition to email, we will be adding content, chat, music, entertainment and several other features, which will soon become very critical for success of any company in this space."

Link: http://www.appleinsider.com/article...uses_apple_of_multiple_patent_violations.html

Wow Nokia, you're just now figuring out email? Even my grandma beat you to that!!

With just 3 percent of the global cell phone market, smartphone makers Apple and Research in Motion command an estimated 35 percent of total worldwide operating revenue -- and their share is expected to grow even more.

Link: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/07/20/apple_rim_profit_margins_far_exceed_market_share.html

In a brief press release Friday, Apple announced its countersuit as a "response" to Nokia's own legal action.

"Other companies must compete with us by inventing their own technologies, not just by stealing ours," said Bruce Sewell, Apple's General Counsel and senior vice president.

Update: In its defense, Apple has argued that Nokia's patents are all related to standards, which means they have been committed to be licensed freely and without discrimination by Nokia. Nokia's own complaint seeks special licensing terms from Apple, and access to the company's own patents.

Apple has alleged that Nokia is attempting to obtain more money from it than other companies, plus rights to Apple's intellectual property -- all after the Finnish company has committed itself to nondiscriminatory licensing.

"In dealing with Apple, Nokia has sought to gain an unjust competitive advantage over Apple by charging unwarranted fees to use patents that allegedly cover industry compatibility standards and by seeking to obtain access to Apple's intellectual property," the suit reads. "Nokia needs access to Apple's intellectual property because Nokia has copied and is now using that patented technology."

Link: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/12/11/apple_files_countersuit_against_nokia.html

I also wrote this whole post and did the research on my Apple iPhone. YOU'RE WELCOME.

Did I miss anything you whiny Nokia fans? Who looks like the fanboy now? It's not like I just pull this stuff out of my butt. I've been reading about it for months now. You'd know if you were actually paying attention!! Damn you annoy me. Don't complain if you have no concrete evidence to back it up.

How does it feel to be totally and completely owned by someone posting from an iPhone? I bet it doesn't feel as good as someone using an iPhone to totally and completely destroy a Nokia fanboy's statements about their aging, failing platform!

 

[tatonka]

I really is always hillarious to read legal discussions in internet forums .. it becomes better when basically nothing is known about the deals offered or denied.
Apple Fans: Those ____ at Nokia are trying to rip poor Steve off
The Rest: Those arogant _____ at Apple think they are something better.

Objection your honor .. pure speculation!

T.

 

[MorphingDragon]

And so on...

These kinds of comments are predictable on an Apple fan forum. But, as some posters before me have already pointed out: try not to be blinded by your love for Apple. Consider the possibility that they haven't come up with every single innovation since the beginning of time.

Got to Finnish (no pun intended) with this one:



I'm an iPhone user and I ridicule you.

But let's not get childish like Nokia and Apple!

I said it because Apple has shown that it will engage in cross-licensing agree and will pay royalties etc.

I didn't say that last quote, I don't use Thwart or compel for a start.

BTW, my true fan-ship is with Linux. I own a N97. It is in-fact you who is making presumptions and bias.

 

[Vmaatta]

I never said everyone wanted an iPhone, although I think it's safe to say that the iPhone has radically changed the public's perception of what a mobile phone can be. Ultimately, I think everyone does want a "smart phone" (ie: mini computer). And even if they don't today, they will in the next few years as the product category matures.

As for Nokia, the writing is on the wall. They have a terrible UI and there's nothing "cool" about their brand. Their marketshare will continue to erode around the world until they deliver better products. All this patent litigation wreaks of a company that would rather litigate than innovate. As I clearly stated in my earlier post, I have no opinion on the validity of their claims. I do think, however, that if they spend more time making better products and less time acting like the Microsoft of the mobile phone world, they might find increased success.

You’ve got some good points. And I agree that Nokia really needs to step up and do some proper phones if they aim to be in the game this decade. But so many seem to think that this thing about licensing would have started only after Apple started eating into Nokia’s share or after Nokia saw Apple having a successful phone. And it didn’t.

On a side note.. A couple years ago I thought Nokia started looking like the Microsoft of mobile phones. And the last couple of years certainly haven’t changed that opinion. I’m really disappointed at Maemo for example. In this case though I’m inclined to believe it has gone childish on both sides a long time ago. Nokia and Apple should just settle and both concentrate on making some proper products.

 

[scroto]

It's threads like these that makes me think that some Apple fans have a form of mental illness.

How can people seriously get worked at a company claiming it's patents have been infringed by Apple?

Jeesh, some of you are worse than Born Again Christians.

I know, it's pathetic

 

[Terminal.app]

Not really. This approach has never worked for the US. In the end, you guys are always surprised that not everybody wants to live in Disneyland, eat Donuts and be a worker-slave without rights for one Dollar per hour during daytime.

That post was a joke. lrn2sarcasm.

Charming stereotype, by the way.

 

[Vmaatta]

Got to Finnish (no pun intended) with this one:

I'm an iPhone user and I ridicule you.

But let's not get childish like Nokia and Apple!

Caught me before I fixed it .. the secretary is out and so on..

 

[Clown Boy]

The Apple name - stolen from Apple Corps

The iPhone name - stolen from Cisco

Says it all about them really...

 

[MorphingDragon]

Jeesh, some of you are worse than Born Again Christians.

Saying things like that, makes you somehow more superior.

You're no better.

The Apple name - stolen from Apple Corps

Read iWoz.

The iPhone name - stolen from Cisco

It wasn't directly stolen,

iNoun is a naming pretense for Apple.

 

[dejo]

Apple says that Nokia did offer money only compensation terms to Apple for licenses in 2007....

Which paragraphs of pages 40 and 41 state this? Cuz I see that paragraph 79 states:

Throughout the negotiations, Apple made clear to Nokia that, except for one specific family of patents, Apple would not agree to cross-license to Nokia any of its patents (in particular those relating to iPhone technology) that were not essential to relevant industry standards, such as...

 

[jav6454]

I found this funny. Courtesy of Gizmodo

even though Nokia isn't a patent troll per say, I hold them as if thy were. Trying to ban iPods is way beyond what Nokia ever R&D'd.

 

[rikesh]

I didn't say that last quote, I don't use Thwart or compel for a start.

I do apologise, put the wrong username in that quote. Have corrected it now.

BTW, my true fan-ship is with Linux. I own a N97. It is in-fact you who is making presumptions and bias.

Please quote one presumption or bias I have made! All I have done is challenge the general opinion on this topic that Nokia are in the wrong. One poster has even gone to the extent of insulting the whole nation of Finland:

1. Declare Finland a terrorist state
2. Send in troops
3. Bomb them into stone age
4. "Rebuild" using US companies ONLY

Problem solved!!!!

The reality is that Apple will never be banned from importing products into the US (or any country) because this wouldn't be in the interest of anyone (even Nokia, believe it or not). Same applies vice versa.

 

[MadIvan]

I salute you sir .

You folks must be reading a different thread than i am. Aside from one obvious troll post about Nokia, I have mostly seen Apple haters and Nokia Fanboys posting nonsense. Where are the Apple fanboys you people claim exist? I don't see them.

My guess as to the outcome of all this: There will be a small exchange of money to Nokia plus a big cross licensing deal that will clear the way for Apple to use pretty much all of Nokia's IP. In five years, Nokia will have been bought out by another company and will linger on only as a brand-name if at all, ala Compaq under HP. This is a pattern that has occured many times in the tech business when a company that used to be on the top has seen the market move on without them.

 

[Vmaatta]

Holy crap you noobs are annoying!! Actually no, it's just based on plain sales figures. Do I have to conduct an entire research project to fill you guys in? You would know all this if you ever read MacRumors or AppleInsider!

NEW YORK TIMES, 10-16-09:




Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/16/technology/companies/16nokia.html

From AppleInsider:



Link: http://www.appleinsider.com/article...uses_apple_of_multiple_patent_violations.html

Wow Nokia, you're just now figuring out email? Even my grandma beat you to that!!



Link: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/07/20/apple_rim_profit_margins_far_exceed_market_share.html



Link: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/12/11/apple_files_countersuit_against_nokia.html

I also wrote this whole post and did the research on my Apple iPhone. YOU'RE WELCOME.

Did I miss anything you whiny Nokia fans? Who looks like the fanboy now? It's not like I just pull this stuff out of my butt. I've been reading about it for months now. You'd know if you were actually paying attention!! Damn you annoy me. Don't complain if you have no concrete evidence to back it up.

How does it feel to be totally and completely owned by someone posting from an iPhone? I bet it doesn't feel as good as someone using an iPhone to totally and completely destroy a Nokia fanboy's statements about their aging, failing platform!

Well, I thought it was pretty well known that Nokia has been unfair with Apple when it comes to licensing Nokia's GSM technology from the 1980s which is used in most every phone in the world. They have been wanting higher fees from Apple than anyone else and were also wanting access to Apple's intellectual property as part of the deal so that they can make a carbon copy clone of the iPhone without actually doing any real, innovative work.

Essentially Nokia's profts have been tumbling, in part at the expense of new-comer Apple, so they are trying to survive at this point. Pathetic. Remember when Nokia was cool? Everyone has them and that stupid ringtone. Not anymore! If anything though, they should go after the Asian manufacturing companies like Samsung and LG who probably cut into their profits even more. But they already pay fair-priced licensing fees, so they can't. Apple just wants the same terms all the other companies get, but Nokia is being a little you-know-what.

Nothing you said is based on fact...

I knew kinda that comment was gonna haunt me.. oh well.

I thought it was pretty well known that Nokia has been unfair with Apple when it comes to licensing...

No it’s not “well known”. It’s just forum posters deciding such things.

...Nokia's GSM technology from the 1980s which is used in most every phone in the world.

Used in many phones from many manufacturers but the patents are not some old hacks from 80s like you suggest. How could a patent like "deactivating the touch screen during phone calls so that information is not accidentally inputted via the touch screen when the phone is pressed against the ear” be from the 80s.

They have been wanting higher fees from Apple than anyone else and were also wanting access to Apple's intellectual property as part of the deal so that they can make a carbon copy clone of the iPhone without actually doing any real, innovative work.

Yeah well no one still hasn’t provided something like a link to a court filing or quote from Apple saying that Nokia want’s more from them than others. And yeah I guess they’d really like a cross licensing deal but it has been said that both, money, licenses and combination has been proposed. I don’t know, and I don’t presume to know what is exactly true about the discussions between Apple and Nokia.

And seriously. If Nokia were making “carbon copies” of iPhones then the phones might actually be good don’t you think.

Essentially Nokia's profts have been tumbling, in part at the expense of new-comer Apple, so they are trying to survive at this point. Pathetic.

Yeah, their profits have been tumbling. And partly at the expense of Apple. But they’re not exactly going under. I was wrong, something was actually based on fact and not just heated rambling.

Everyone has them and that stupid ringtone. Not anymore!

In the US Nokia has never been all that popular I guess but here most people still have Nokia phones and that stupid ringtone.

Apple just wants the same terms all the other companies get, but Nokia is being a little you-know-what.

Maybe. Or maybe Apple is being childish and doesn’t want to pay. I have no idea .

How does it feel to be totally and completely owned by someone posting from an iPhone? I bet it doesn't feel as good as someone using an iPhone to totally and completely destroy a Nokia fanboy's statements about their aging, failing platform!

I don’t know, hasn’t happened yet. I’ll just let my iPhone have it’s rest in the cradle and use a keyboard to type. I’m not a Nokia fanboy and presuming so just shows your own bias perhaps.

The Engadget analysis about this is quite good: http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/29/nokia-vs-apple-the-in-depth-analysis/

And a couple other links:
http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/files/nokia_apple_itc.pdf
http://podcasts.aolcdn.com/engadget/files/21458614-Nokia-vs-Apple-Complaint.pdf

 

[TeamDNA]

Do you really believe this nonsense or do you create it at your weekly fanboy meetings? Nokia sold 113 million phones in the 1st quarter of 2009 alone. And Apple has sold how many since 2007???? And please, don't rant on about "profit share" (Which means a company is selling fewer items but making more money because they are overcharging consumers) or "Mindshare" (what economics class is that taught in???)...

Corporations aim to sell a lot of widgets and make a lot of profit. "Being Cool" is important to fanboys I suppose, but corporations who strive for it only exists in your little twisted reality.

Ok how many different phones does nokia sell vs how many phones apple sells. How many different price varients are there on nokia phones vs apple. It's not fair to say nokia sold more. And apple is a company all these others envy.

 

[Vmaatta]

Please quote one presumption or bias I have made! All I have done is challenge the general opinion on this topic that Nokia are in the wrong. One poster has even gone to the extent of insulting the whole nation of Finland...

Before this gets out of hand let it be said that it was sarcasm. As a Finnish reader I took it as humor and I had no doubt it was such.

You folks must be reading a different thread than i am. Aside from one obvious troll post about Nokia, I have mostly seen Apple haters and Nokia Fanboys posting nonsense. Where are the Apple fanboys you people claim exist? I don't see them.

My guess as to the outcome of all this: There will be a small exchange of money to Nokia plus a big cross licensing deal that will clear the way for Apple to use pretty much all of Nokia's IP. In five years, Nokia will have been bought out by another company and will linger on only as a brand-name if at all, ala Compaq under HP. This is a pattern that has occured many times in the tech business when a company that used to be on the top has seen the market move on without them.

There has been less extreme Apple fanboy-ism in this thread than the other ones I’ve seen.. to the rest, oh boy..

 

[LeoNobilis]

That's almost touching - so evidently baby-like!

I gave it a positive (because O'm with Apple here), but is it not becoming ridiculously childish - alternately poking one another with the same stick!

Even if (just suppose) Apple did infringe Nokia patents, Apple's implementation would differ so much (read: be so much more refined) from Nokia's that no one but Nokia's Treasury Department would manage to find a common ground!

 

[donlab]

In five years, Nokia will have been bought out by another company and will linger on only as a brand-name if at all, ala Compaq under HP. This is a pattern that has occured many times in the tech business when a company that used to be on the top has seen the market move on without them.

umm.... No.

 

[Nuvi]

1. Declare Finland a terrorist state
2. Send in troops
3. Bomb them into stone age
4. "Rebuild" using US companies ONLY

Problem solved!!!!

...and wonder why so many Europeans think Americans are uneducated hillbilly idiots...