Apple Again Hits Back at Nokia in Patent Dispute

[MacRumors]

Bloomberg reports that Apple has struck back at Nokia again in the growing patent dispute between the two companies, filing a complaint with the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) seeking to prevent the import of mobile phones from Nokia. The move counters a similar request made to the ITC earlier this month by Nokia seeking to ban the import of "virtually all" Apple products.

"Nokia will study the complaint when it is received and continue to defend itself vigorously," Nokia spokesman Mark Durrant said by text message today. "However this does not alter the fact that Apple has failed to agree appropriate terms for using Nokia technology and has been seeking a free ride on Nokia's innovation since it shipped the first iPhone in 2007."

The dispute between the two companies began in October 2009 when Nokia filed a lawsuit against Apple charging infringement of a number of its patents by the iPhone. Apple filed a countersuit in December alleging both that Nokia itself was infringing on Apple patents with its products and that Nokia was in effect holding Apple hostage in negotiations over the Nokia patents, demanding the right to iPhone-related intellectual property not deemed "essential" to industry standards.

Article Link: Apple Again Hits Back at Nokia in Patent Dispute

 

[appleguy123]

What usually happens in these cases? Is it really realistic that we won' have anymore Apple/Nokia products?

 

[*LTD*]

What usually happens in these cases? Is it really realistic that we won' have anymore Apple/Nokia products?

No, it isn't realistic at all. It's likely they'll settle, worst case. This is how Apple tends to operate, regardless. Apple is hit with a patent suit, then Apple hits back with several more. It can get pretty vicious but dollars-to-donuts Apple already knows the likely outcome and is ready for it, whether positive or negative.

I wouldn't be too worried.

 

[appleguy123]

No, it isn't realistic at all. It's likely they'll settle, worst case. This is how Apple tends to operate, regardless. Apple is hit with a patent suit, then Apple hits back with several more. It can get pretty vicious but dollars-to-donuts Apple already knows the likely outcome and is ready for it, whether positive or negative.

I wouldn't be too worried.

Is it known what patents Nokia wants from Apple?

 

[jav6454]

Nokia is making an awful loads of noise. I hope they are prepared to deal with the huge bang of the gavels in court when they are told to find someone else to troll.

 

[rikesh]

Nokia is making an awful loads of noise. I hope they are prepared to deal with the huge bang of the gavels in court when they are told to find someone else to troll.

What makes you think they are 'trolling'?

 

[BrianMojo]

What makes you think they are 'trolling'?

Yeah, exactly. It's pretty likely both companies are actually infringing on patents but have simply been unwilling to come to a compromise that suits them both financially.

 

[Revelation78]

What makes you think they are 'trolling'?

The fact the Apple claims it has no problem paying "fair" royalties to use Nokia patents. Nokia wants cross-licensing, not just "fair" monetary compensation from Apple.

Apple refuses to license Apple tech to Nokia, so Nokia throws a fit in court. That's my understanding of things - I could be wrong.

If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck...

 

[rrandyy]

Nokia is not a troll, by definition. Patent trolls generally do not utilize the patents they own.

What Apple is doing is called "mutually assured destruction." Most tech companies file patents as a protection mechanism in addition to the traditional reasons. That way, when someone sues them they can dig up their own patents that are potentially being infringed and counter sue. This gives the initiating party (Nokia, in this case) an incentive to settle.

At the same time, both Apple and Nokia will be working on potential work-arounds for the patents they are being sued for. If an injunction is handed down, they can move to this work-around as a backup plan. It's unlikely that either company has a patent so fundamental that a work-around cannot be constructed.

 

[SeattleMoose]

Let's Settle This NOW!!!

1. Declare Finland a terrorist state
2. Send in troops
3. Bomb them into stone age
4. "Rebuild" using US companies ONLY

Problem solved!!!!

 

[rrandyy]

The fact the Apple claims it has no problem paying "fair" royalties to use Nokia patents. Nokia wants cross-licensing, not just "fair" monetary compensation from Apple.

Apple refuses to license Apple tech to Nokia, so Nokia throws a fit in court. That's my understanding of things - I could be wrong.

If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck...

Couldn't you say the same thing about Apple then? Nokia is refusing to license Nokia technology to Apple, and Apple is throwing a fit in court.

 

[pdjudd]

Nokia is not a troll, by definition. Patent trolls generally do not utilize the patents they own.

Saying “by definition” is pretty absolute, yet you already qualify that with the word “generally”. Which is it?

 

[macduke]

What makes you think they are 'trolling'?

Well, I thought it was pretty well known that Nokia has been unfair with Apple when it comes to licensing Nokia's GSM technology from the 1980s which is used in most every phone in the world. They have been wanting higher fees from Apple than anyone else and were also wanting access to Apple's intellectual property as part of the deal so that they can make a carbon copy clone of the iPhone without actually doing any real, innovative work.

Essentially Nokia's profts have been tumbling, in part at the expense of new-comer Apple, so they are trying to survive at this point. Pathetic. Remember when Nokia was cool? Everyone has them and that stupid ringtone. Not anymore! If anything though, they should go after the Asian manufacturing companies like Samsung and LG who probably cut into their profits even more. But they already pay fair-priced licensing fees, so they can't. Apple just wants the same terms all the other companies get, but Nokia is being a little you-know-what.

 

[cmaier]

No, it isn't realistic at all. It's likely they'll settle, worst case. This is how Apple tends to operate, regardless. Apple is hit with a patent suit, then Apple hits back with several more. It can get pretty vicious but dollars-to-donuts Apple already knows the likely outcome and is ready for it, whether positive or negative.

I wouldn't be too worried.

This should be fun. ITC cases go very fast (about 12 months) and the plaintiff often wins. Discovery will come very soon (in the next couple of months), so I would expect a settlement around early April. If not, then little likelihood of a settlement prior to a ruling.

 

[GoodWatch]

How dare anyone, anyone on God's given earth file a complaint against Apple? How dare they! What will be next? Bill Gates becoming CIO at Apple?

 

[kiljoy616]

Lawsuit is a good thing

To me this lawsuit is a good thing. Most companies don't sue each other because even though they may have patents there are other companies that have patents on what they have, kind of the Cold War.

Mutual destruction so everyone either just looks the other way and moves on with making products people want to buy, or the just get really cheap licenses between each other.

That said Nokia is been a real dick, over one phone. No matter what anyone is saying, in the end Apple Corp. really has only one dam phone, and is rimming Nokia with 100's of models. Maybe Nokia needs to have less models and make just better phones people want to use.

I for one rather have less but higher quality and usefulness.

Either way its going to get a lot worse so sooner or later these types of Patents are going to be a burden on society. Can't wait till that day to come.

 

[rikesh]

The fact the Apple claims it has no problem paying "fair" royalties to use Nokia patents. Nokia wants cross-licensing, not just "fair" monetary compensation from Apple.

Here is my understanding:

Nokia holds the patents for GSM, UMTS and WLAN standards.

Apple released iPhone in 2007 containing these technologies - without paying for the licence (as all other manufacturers have done in the past).

Apple claims it has no problem paying 'fair' royalties. Knowing Apple's idea of a 'fair' pricing structure, this is probably the equivalent of five magic beans.

Nokia (legally) has the right to set its terms of licensing - not Apple. So, Nokia takes Apple to court.

And from then on it becomes childish with these counter-lawsuits, until both companies realise they are both infringing each other and agree to settle.

Correct?

 

[jav6454]

What makes you think they are 'trolling'?

The fact that not only are they going after the only real product that can really infringe a Nokia patent (iPhone). They are going after all Apple products, of which none of those have to do with the cellphone business Nokia is in. Also, not only that, but Nokia goes as far as to trying to prevent Apple from selling their non-cellphone related products (ie Macs) in the US.

That's trolling beyond any measure. I would not say anything if Nokia would go after the iPhone's GSM tech, but, no. They go after all of Apple (including the iPod shuffles which I am sure has no wireless capabilities).

 

[Matti]

Nokia wants cross-licensing, not just "fair" monetary compensation from Apple.

Even Apple itself doesn't claim that. That's totally made up by american media. Read pages 40 and 41 from Apple's countersuit papers. Link Apple says that Nokia did offer money only compensation terms to Apple for licenses in 2007 and 2009. Nokia also says in their court papers that money, cross licensing and combination of both were offered.

2007 and late 2009 Nokia offered purely monetary deal.

2008 and early 2009 Nokia was offering combination of cross licensing and money payment. ( 2008-Mostly patents + small payment, early 2009 mostly money plus few select patent licenses.)


What Nokia and Apple disagree on is whetever Nokia asked too high price for those licenses. Neither's court document offer enough information to say which one is right. We'll have to wait and see what comes up in court.

 

[NetScheduler]

Utter Nonsense

Essentially Nokia's profts have been tumbling, in part at the expense of new-comer Apple, so they are trying to survive at this point. Pathetic. Remember when Nokia was cool?

Do you really believe this nonsense or do you create it at your weekly fanboy meetings? Nokia sold 113 million phones in the 1st quarter of 2009 alone. And Apple has sold how many since 2007???? And please, don't rant on about "profit share" (Which means a company is selling fewer items but making more money because they are overcharging consumers) or "Mindshare" (what economics class is that taught in???)...

Corporations aim to sell a lot of widgets and make a lot of profit. "Being Cool" is important to fanboys I suppose, but corporations who strive for it only exists in your little twisted reality.

 

[Erwin-Br]

They have been wanting higher fees from Apple than anyone else

Could you point me to an official source that states that Nokia wants higher fees from Apple?

Because as I understand it, Nokia wants the same fee as all the other GSM companies are paying, and Apple simply refused it and pays less.

 

[twilson]

Bit of a stretch!?!

However this does not alter the fact that Apple has failed to agree appropriate terms for using Nokia technology and has been seeking a free ride on Nokia's innovation since it shipped the first iPhone in 2007.

Apple is hardly seeking a "free ride". They agree they have to pay, but want to pay the same that every other licensee is paying.

Nokia seems to think that they can charge what they like to each licensee and require cross patent licensing deals, something they gave up the right to do when they included their own patents in the GSM Standard. This is same with any patented technology that goes into a standard.

Nokia is just pissed that Apple is all over their ass, stealing their customers away, plain and simple.

 

[SwingSwords]

Here is my understanding:

Nokia holds the patents for GSM, UMTS and WLAN standards.

Apple released iPhone in 2007 containing these technologies - without paying for the licence (as all other manufacturers have done in the past).

Apple claims it has no problem paying 'fair' royalties. Knowing Apple's idea of a 'fair' pricing structure, this is probably the equivalent of five magic beans.

Nokia (legally) has the right to set its terms of licensing - not Apple. So, Nokia takes Apple to court.

And from then on it becomes childish with these counter-lawsuits, until both companies realise they are both infringing each other and agree to settle.

Correct?

While they own the patents in question they also submitted them to a universal standard, as in the gsm standard. When they did this they agreed to charge the same fee to all companies. So no they do not have the rights to set the terms for the licensing as the terms have already been agreed to when it became a standard.

 

[cmaier]

Here is my understanding:

Nokia holds the patents for GSM, UMTS and WLAN standards.

Nokia holds patents which it claims (and many agree) are necessary for GSM and UMTS. Nokia holds patents that it claims are necessary for WLAN - I'm actually familiar with those patents and with the 802.11 spec, and I disagree about the last part. I also know that most companies disagree on that last point and haven't paid license fees to Nokia.

Probably doesn't add anything to the conversation, but let's be clear that you can't get a patent on a standard, you can get a patent on a technology and that technology may or may not be necessary as part of a given standard.

While they own the patents in question they also submitted them to a universal standard, as in the gsm standard. When they did this they agreed to charge the same fee to all companies.

Not exactly. They agree to license on a fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory basis. That's not the same as charging the same fee to all companies.

 

[SwingSwords]

Could you point me to an official source that states that Nokia wants higher fees from Apple?

Because as I understand it, Nokia wants the same fee as all the other GSM companies are paying, and Apple simply refused it and pays less.

Plenty of people have given excerpts from both Apple's and Nokia's suits and both sides have shown that Nokia has asked for cross-licensing in all their requests for licensing the gsm patents to apple.