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Basic background please ...

Pardon my ignorance, but I'd like to know:

This processor ...

(1) how does it relate to Apple's anti-"MHz Myth" claims concerning
number and length of data "pipes" and the superior efficiency of the current,
slower chips ?

(2) will the faster processor have synergy with OS X so as to make it better than
Windows 2000 in a dramatic way ?

(3) will there be any compatability issues (re-write Jaguar, peripherals,
back-compatible app's etc.) with my current FP iMac 800 MHz ?

(4) what do you see as the most exciting benefit of the switch ?

Thanx in advance,

---gooddog

**********
 
Re: HyperTransport

Originally posted by Frobozz
There's no way Apple is moving to x86 chips, unless perhaps AMD's new Claw Hammer 64 bit chip is a possiblitity. But, overall, I just don't see it. I've already written a exhausively long essay on these boards about how I don't see Apple essentially throwing out it's marketing campaigns for the past 5 years on a whim when such promising IBM chips are on the horizon. Also, it doesn't make sense to require developers to recompile just to run on a new machine. It's one thing to require a recompile for faster performace or 64 bit compilance. It's another thing entirely to render all existing apps either useless or severely speed hit.

at last! someone with some sense. Thank you
 
I know little of PowerPC lincensing issues, but why could not it be that AMD would be thinking on building a PowerPC-compatible non-x86 processor?

BTW, wasn't there a rumor that Motorola might be thinking of selling its desktop processor business?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: AMD vs Microsoft

Originally posted by Cappy


Your comments are nice to hear for Apple fanatics but lets get real. Linux obscure? Are you still stuck in the mid-90's? Linux on the desktop? Who said anything about that?

MS has the desktop office market locked up and it'll be awhile before that can possibly ever change. The Opteron is initially targetted at the server market which is what I was referring to and is MS's only real interest in the cpu. The home market doesn't need 64 bit now or even for awhile and MS knows this.

Quite frankly MS really isn't all that worried about Macs. A few departments within MS might be because of the markets they want to dominate that the Mac is in but overall, they care more about what happens on the Linux front. Together they could be quite formidible but the Mac alone does not even come close to having Bill scared.

Microsoft makes a loss on servers, people just don't see Windows as a server OS - that's what AIX, Solaris and Linux are for.

The Office market is locked up by Microsoft but Licensing 6.0 has made business think again. Currently Linux is the only possibility but isn't very user friendly. Apple has little business credibility now but a move to AMD would change that. Suddenly offices want Macs, and in turn XServes. Perhaps even open office on X.

MS needs the Windows/Office monopoly, it's the only area where they make money. They will defend it vigorously against any threat or percieved threat. Apple on AMD is one.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AMD vs Microsoft

Originally posted by Blackcat


Microsoft makes a loss on servers, people just don't see Windows as a server OS

What the hell are you talking about? IIS for W2K Server is one of the most common webservers out there... There are TONS of W2K server in the world...
 
OSX servers

I thought that the main reason for not getting a mac server was because of the fact you can only use IDE drives and SCSI arrays are seen to be more reliable.

Or am I sadly mistaken...?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AMD vs Microsoft

Originally posted by Blackcat


Microsoft makes a loss on servers, people just don't see Windows as a server OS - that's what AIX, Solaris and Linux are for.

The Office market is locked up by Microsoft but Licensing 6.0 has made business think again. Currently Linux is the only possibility but isn't very user friendly. Apple has little business credibility now but a move to AMD would change that. Suddenly offices want Macs, and in turn XServes. Perhaps even open office on X.

MS needs the Windows/Office monopoly, it's the only area where they make money. They will defend it vigorously against any threat or percieved threat. Apple on AMD is one.

ERRR. thank you for playing. Have you ever looked at the Microsoft Licensing scheme? Ever heard of a Client Access License (CAL). MS makes a fortune from all these huge companies where every desk is accessing a MS server. Not just for Win2k server, but also for every exchange user, SQL user.

And back to Apple, I don't believe that apps that do not try to directly access the hardware will have any problems running on an AMD based system. We all know that Apple already has the OS ported. I bet you didn't know that one person did the port, and it didn't take a heck of a lot of time. Darwin has been out for x86 for a long time.

I think Apple would be smart not to bet the farm that Motorola will continue to be a strategic partner. That looks like it is dying already. Then they would have IBM as the sole chip supplier.... Why not make sure you have a backup plan that works. Why not have PowerMac G4s and PowerMac AMDs or whatever. If they can use the best chip from either company, and everything is flawless from the customers point of view, for application compatibility, do it. It is not like Apple is going to sell Mac OS X that will run on a Crapway computer.

As for your previous comment about porting OS X to every platform that Linux runs on, that is just a really stupid comment. Linux is written by people who are volunteering their time. Mac OS X is written by a company that needs to make a profit. We are not going to see Mac OS X on an XBox (that would be great to see though). It won't run on my Tivo. (though apple really needs to make their own tivo, and I am not talking about a stupid eyetv thing.)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AMD vs Microsoft

Originally posted by Blackcat


Er, hello?

IIS gets maybe 30%, the rest are Apache and others. Don't take my word for it, look here http://www.netcraft.com/survey/

er, hello, do you know how many servers 30% of the web server market represents? even if only 10% of them have been paid for that is a bucketload of money in MS pockets.

35,114,328 sites. If 30% are IIS that would be around 10.5 million (catch that, MILLION) IIS web servers (half of them probably have been compromised and are also warez servers ;-) So, 10% of that would be 1 million, and MS charges what, about 500-1000 dollars per copy. That would be a half a billion to a billion dollars in sales. Still alot of money (and stupid people for running an IIS server).

I am not sticking up for MS, I am going off topic though. So I'll just say "Apple and AMD, yeah ;-)"
 
Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
This might be real bad, if Apple comes out with these x86 boxes this winter, it means that in a few months software wise there will be no new development for the PowerPC because they will want you to switch over, meaning the machines people are buying right now will be junk in a few months.

Talk about pissed off people....I will be one...at least Windows sticks with x86 and that makes it easy for their customers, Apple switching all over on chips will make it real tough, because if they go x86 32 bit and then a few months later go x86 64 then they will have year old PowerPCs that are no longer supported, and a few month old 32bit x86's that are not...what a mess...if this all happens kiss them goodbye, they might as well load Xp on it

It would never happen that fast, and if it did, I have ZERO doubt that there would be a compatibility layer built in somewhere.

Remember, Apple HAS done this before, and quite successfully.

TL
 
Re: If anything, it'll be the chipset.

Originally posted by sturm375
My bet is that if AMD and Apple are going to do anything, it will be a chip-set, not a processor. Apple has already decided on the DDR ram, and again others have already stated the Hypertransport stuff.

AMD and Producing PPC Chips:

I doubt it. AMD is a bigger Processor (non embeded) producer than Moto, however they are still not big enough to support that many lines of CPUs.

They might be able to put PPC emulation on there x86-64 chip (Hammer), as they've alway emulated the CISC/x86 anyway. (Little known fact: AMD produces RISC chips with a front end CISC emulater/translater). That's still a long-shot, as it would still require 2 seperate runs/lines of processors.

Of cource this still doesn't stop me from hoping Apple will just adopt the x86-64 as is. I know it's a long-shot, but I am a Cubs fan after all. I am used to dissappointment:D

Good bark, wrong tree.

AMD has been clear that it does NOT want to be in the chipset business.

They don't even want to design their OWN chipsets, even though theirs was the best on the market.

No, it's not about Chipsets. There's something else...

TL
 
Re: I dont GET you PEOPLE!!

Originally posted by agreenster
Why all this b*tching and moaning about Apple switching to a "PC" processor? Are you all idiots? It isnt the HARDWARE that necessarily makes Apple superior to Windows machines--its the SOFTWARE! Its the Windows SOFTWARE that crashes.

Why dont you people who claim to be Apple supporters actually SUPPORT Apple when they *might* be deciding to switch processors? DOnt you think they have researched ways to make this transition smoothly?

I mean c'mon, hardly any of us here at Macrumors have the slightest clue how computers work compared to the technicians who get paid the big bucks to figure this stuff out on their own!

Point is, if Apple decides to put AMD chips in their computers, they will do it correctly and with the least amount of headache possible for the consumer. They arent stupid.

The real reason we should be upset isnt because Apple is supposedly switching, but that it has taken them THIS long to figure out how much SLOWER their G4 processors are compared to the super-fast and efficient AMD chip.

Furthermore, the people who are complaining about the switch right now are probably the same people who complain about the speeds of their boxes all the other 50 weeks of the year.

I give congrats to Apple if they are making such a bold move.

Absolutely agreed.

One thing is for sure. If this does happen, it will bring the true, hard-core Apple Zealots out of the woodwork like spilled sugar.

The rest of us who understand what computing is all about will sit back and enjoy the show :)

TL
 
Re: AMD vs Microsoft

Originally posted by Blackcat
If AMD started working with Apple on MacOS X x86, Microsoft would suddenly stop XP running on IA64. This would kill AMD faster than Apple could save it, unless Apple bought AMD which would use the whole $5bn.

Make no mistake, Microsoft sees MacOS X as a threat. It only made profit on Windows and Office last quarter so won't stand anything eroding that, and an AMD/Apple CPU partnership might.

So I think there more important reasons why this won't happen. It's not like MS was particular scared by it's run in with the law.

Yeah, an 85% profit margin if I remember correctly.

Microsoft has a lot more to be worried about than Apple, formost being how badly they are pissing off their customers right now with all their shenanigans.

TL
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AMD vs Microsoft

Originally posted by peterjhill


er, hello, do you know how many servers 30% of the web server market represents? even if only 10% of them have been paid for that is a bucketload of money in MS pockets.

The point was that MS has most of the webserver market. It doesn't, it has 30%. It makes no profit on server stuff, check the SEC filings.
 
Apple bought AMD. And if they didn't, they should. How great would it be for Apple to be there own PPC-manufacturer - No more bottlenecks. ;)
 
Originally posted by sturm375


P4 2.8GHz @ $385
Athlon 2700 XP (333 FSB) @ $352
G4 ????

How much does it cost to buy just a G4 processor? The prices above are from www.pricewatch.com, and I am sure that big OEMs get better pricing then the above.

http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,1035_747_23,00.html

Suggested retail pricing for the MPC7445 at 800 MHz is $125 in 10k quantities. Suggested retail pricing for the MPC7455 at 1 GHz is $295 in 10k quantities

Circa 28-Jan-2002.

Add in costs for L3 and the custom daughterboard and the final price for finished product will go up.
 
Re: OSX servers

Originally posted by flashfil
I thought that the main reason for not getting a mac server was because of the fact you can only use IDE drives and SCSI arrays are seen to be more reliable.

Or am I sadly mistaken...?

Very sadly mistaken.
 
Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
This is all going to get so messy I might just get a PC, I don't want to deal with all these compatibility issues.

Want to deal with compatibility issues? Get a PC! Every member of my wifes family who got a pc had to take it back at least twice to get one that worked! Then they want my help!
All this for what? $700 spent and the only thing that I can see that is faster is the printer, which is usb, so I could have bought a $29 card for their Macs and then they could use usb.
I sat down at their new super pcs, which they use for e-mail and word processing, and guess what? online speed is still the same,limited by their crappy phone line!
Go ahead get a pc, but other than getting rid of some cash what is accomplished?
Daniel
 
FROM AMDZONE.com:

Since the summer of 2000 when I was introduced to Mac OSX, I have been extremely excited about Apple's newest operating system. I have always been a x86 PC user subjected to using "Macs". When I learned that OSX was to be based on the BSD platform, my thoughts were that Apple was going to move away from the hardware market and directly into competition with good old Redmond. One would be led to think that this may be an easy step, but it is not just porting software to a new CPU. Apple would have to develop all their tools to compete with Microsoft, if certain products were discontinued for the OSX platform. Since the introduction of OSX, Apple has developed an application base that could compete with Microsoft.

That stance may have changed, if comments made by CEO Steve Jobs at the company's quarterly earnings confab. Asked whether Apple is now mooting a move to x86 chips, Jobs noted that that couldn't happen until the vast majority of its users and - more importantly - its developers have migrated to the UNIX-based Mac OSX. That won't have happened until the end of this year, he added.

Developers, users, as well as hardware vendors would need to be able to supply Apple at launch with quantity parts and software. Unlike the launch of the Athlon MP, AMD would need to have a flawless launch with quantity parts available for Tier 1 OEMs. After seeing the Sledgehammer 1.4ghz running at the Microprocessor Forum earlier this month, one can believe that the final product is ready and they are now in the process of creating a supply of processors, and speed grades for a January launch with multiple Tier 1 OEMs. Since Dresden still produces the performance Athlon XPs, an explanation of why we have not seen quantity of this product (XP 2600 & 2800) is simple. The majority of the production is geared up for Opteron product and what is left for XP product is being retooled to the Barton core for a mid-4th quarter launch. Many Opteron motherboards are almost ready to ship and should be ready to go through validation shortly with AMD.

With Apple looking for a 64-bit solution as well as needing to compete with other OEMs, there are very few choices. These include the Itanium 2, Opteron, and the PowerPC 64. The only two that are cost effective for the common user would be the PowerPC 64 and the Opteron. We know that the Opteron (clawhammer) will be priced combatively against other current multiprocessor solutions. One can assume that

Apple's "continued technical disadvantage" -- which we assume means the race for computer processing speed -- against Intel is expected to force it to adopt x86 technology by the end of 2003, according to a new report by Giga Information Group Inc., a global technology advisory firm.

Apple has the choice to use the new PowerPC 64 in their next generation of systems, but has yet to make an announcement of doing so which makes one think that they are evaluating their other options more seriously. For years Apple has stuck to a proprietary hardware solution until the last few years, in which they have adopted the more common PCI and AGP standards with their additional modifications.

But while that may be easy enough for a dedicated 64-bit microprocessor without native 32-bit support, like AMD's Hammer is likely to have, what happens to all the old OS9 apps and third party OSX apps?

POWER chips do have a 32-bit subset and so can run the old gear, a la Hammer.

The core of MacOSX is extremely portable, he said, and as NeXTSTEP and OPENSTEP has run on SPARC, HP-PA/RISC, PowerPC, x86, and he said, perhaps the Alpha processor too.

I guess for now we will have to wait a couple more months until MacWorld, San Francisco, to see how Apple plays their cards. I hope that with the popularity of Linux and BSD, that a GUI like OSX will gain a strong foothold in the x86 market.

---

Sorry if this was posted already.
 
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