Apple and Epic Games Return to Court to Fight Over App Store Rules

[bastoshaq]

I liked when the judge said "the anti trust law is to protect costumers, not competitors" - basically saying that the costumer are not complaining, it is the competitors.

And also the part where Apple was saying the the Epic's CEO uses and iPhone due to its protection and security which would be compromised if apps were to be installed into the system without review.

 

[Ethosik]

Apple can appeal all it likes, but sooner or later it will be forced to allow side loading, it’s just a matter of time. The direction is clear, only a fool would pretend not to see it.

I highly doubt it. The same law would need to apply to Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo. As a developer I can’t bypass their costs.

 

[cocky jeremy]

Well, you probably don't play games, and don't know how many of the better Apple iOS Games relies on Unreal Engine.

Soon Epic will be able to have their Game Launcher on iOS anyway, I will have no problem installing it to get the better games.

If I want to play games, I'll hop on my gaming PC. No need or care for that on iOS in the slightest bit.

 

[TayIsTay]

said by someone who clearly is ignorant of the fact that percentage makes up loads of things including handling taxes, hosting, bandwidth, advertising, payment fees, support costs, development tools

Profit margin of 78% though.

See https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-had-78-profit-margin-in-2019-testimony-shows

 

[HiVolt]

Also it is not very secure to give your credit card details to every single website.

How do you buy other things from the Internet by not providing payment information to "every single website"?

Yeah there's Paypal, which can still be a part of these developers if they choose it, or not.

They can also choose to use Apple Pay, which is secure, and knowing that the people buying are Apple users, the chance of using Apple Pay is high, and probably for far less percentage cut than 15-30%.

 

[deevey]

Very true. Let me find another way to sell my iOS app… Oh that’s right, there aren’t any!

Good luck selling your amazing app outside the store unless it's extremely "must-have", already have user trust, and have massive budget for marketing and SEO. This aside from global distribution, accounting etc..

 

[kepgnar]

Is it so wrong to just want to play Fortnite on a Mac? Epic is really screwing over some customers over this. There must be dozens of us!

 

[Wildkraut]

Good luck selling your amazing app outside the store unless it's extremely "must-have", already have user trust, and have massive budget for marketing and SEO. This aside from global distribution, accounting etc..

Ohh don’t underestimate that! Due to the Apple restrictions, there exist many market gaps of “must have” iOS Apps, just waiting to be filled.
From Firewalls to decent FileManagers, IDE’s, full featured Terminals, Development Pipeline Automation, etc. just to name a few.

 

[ackmondual]

App Store is fair. Don't like it? Don't build for it. It's very simple.

But yet, when Apple needs to comply with another country's laws, they hem and haw that they shouldn't have to deal with them, crying "innovation" or something like that. They've had the same opportunities to leave those markets.

 

[Wildkraut]

Anyway, when is the next hearing?
Is there even another hearing?

 

[Ethosik]

Very true. Let me find another way to sell my iOS app… Oh that’s right, there aren’t any!

This logic makes no sense. You can’t make the market this narrow just to fit your narrative. As a developer, if I want to make a game (PS5 game to play by these rules of making up markets), I have no choice but to go through Sony. I can’t just grab Visual Studio make my game and direct PS5 owners to my website without paying Sony developer costs.

But that argument makes no sense like iOS apps. You have a choice to develop for Android. Just like I have a choice to develop for Windows, which I am doing.

 

[JKAussieSkater]

This logic makes no sense. You can’t make the market this narrow just to fit your narrative. As a developer, if I want to make a game (PS5 game to play by these rules of making up markets), I have no choice but to go through Sony. I can’t just grab Visual Studio make my game and direct PS5 owners to my website without paying Sony developer costs.

But that argument makes no sense like iOS apps. You have a choice to develop for Android. Just like I have a choice to develop for Windows, which I am doing.

Is Sony’s Playstation a general purpose computer? Is Nintendo’s Switch? Is Microsoft’s Xbox?

No. No. No.

Are tablets and smartphones general purpose computers? Yes.

Is the iPad (and let’s include iPhones here) restricted from competitive in-app-purchase prices? Yes.

Is this a problem? The courts will decide.

 

[Ethosik]

Is Sony’s Playstation a general purpose computer? Is Nintendo’s Switch? Is Microsoft’s Xbox?

No. No. No.

Are tablets and smartphones general purpose computers? Yes.

Is the iPad (and let’s include iPhones here) restricted from competitive in-app-purchase prices? Yes.

Is this a problem? The courts will decide.

That still doesn’t make sense. The market isn’t iOS apps. It’s mobile apps. You have Android to create your app.

And actually to a degree, yes consoles are more general purpose now than ever. It’s the only box I have on one tv. Allows me to watch Blu Ray, Netflix, listen to music and play games.

 

[strongy]

How do you buy other things from the Internet by not providing payment information to "every single website"?

Yeah there's Paypal, which can still be a part of these developers if they choose it, or not.

They can also choose to use Apple Pay, which is secure, and knowing that the people buying are Apple users, the chance of using Apple Pay is high, and probably for far less percentage cut than 15-30%.

can't believe there's still people assuming that 15-30% is only for one thing you would think people would know better

 

[JKAussieSkater]

That still doesn’t make sense. The market isn’t iOS apps. It’s mobile apps. You have Android to create your app.

And actually to a degree, yes consoles are more general purpose now than ever. It’s the only box I have on one tv. Allows me to watch Blu Ray, Netflix, listen to music and play games.

This whole court case is about iOS apps, not “mobile apps”…

And as for “the market”, that hasn’t even been properly defined in the court case (in the video, the judge discusses if the case needs to return to the district court to establish what the relevant market is). So even if it’s obvious to you what “the market” is, the decision on that is still pending in reality.

But as for the consoles being general purpose computers, I disagree. Capable? Sure! But in practice, no, not really. They’re quite specialised for gaming. I don’t think I could edit a movie or photo with a gaming console, let alone upload it to Twitter… Or type out documents and print them. Consoles are not general purpose, in my opinion.

 

[strongy]

Ohh don’t underestimate that! Due to the Apple restrictions, there exist many market gaps of “must have” iOS Apps, just waiting to be filled.
From Firewalls to decent FileManagers, IDE’s, full featured Terminals, Development Pipeline Automation, etc. just to name a few.

wow stuff for the .1% of people lol

 

[Wildkraut]

wow stuff for the .1% of people lol

A firewall? I don’t think so, this will become #1 App to be sideloaded on iOS. To stop Apple spying on customers, just like LittleSnitch.

 

[Bawstun]

said by someone who clearly is ignorant of the fact that percentage makes up loads of things including handling taxes, hosting, bandwidth, advertising, payment fees, support costs, development tools

said by someone who clearly is ignorant of the fact that percentage makes up loads of things including handling taxes, hosting, bandwidth, advertising, payment fees, support costs, development tools

I understand all of that but a third is still much too high. It’s almost preventative, in that some talented developers don’t even want to take the time on the platform knowing they will ultimately be sacrificing a third of their efforts.

 

[geartau]

Very true. Let me find another way to sell my iOS app… Oh that’s right, there aren’t any!

or...develop an android app. this shouldn't be hard to figure out.

 

[geartau]

But yet, when Apple needs to comply with another country's laws, they hem and haw that they shouldn't have to deal with them, crying "innovation" or something like that. They've had the same opportunities to leave those markets.

"but yet" what? Is Apple suing the country?

 

[duffman9000]

Ohh don’t underestimate that! Due to the Apple restrictions, there exist many market gaps of “must have” iOS Apps, just waiting to be filled.
From Firewalls to decent FileManagers, IDE’s, full featured Terminals, Development Pipeline Automation, etc. just to name a few.

Filemanagers? Probably the most funny thing I’ve read in a good while. Never have I ever wanted a file manager on iOS.

 

[quarkysg]

Filemanagers? Probably the most funny thing I’ve read in a good while. Never have I ever wanted a file manager on iOS.

Hehe ... seems like for a minority of folks here their problems have been always nails and they want all their tools to be hammers .... but I digress ...

 

[duffman9000]

Hehe ... seems like for a minority of folks here their problems have been always nails and they want all their tools to be hammers .... but I digress ...

I could have also mentioned Terminals. I’ve used a terminal practically every day for the last 15 years. I downloaded a terminal app for iOS and used it exactly one time.

 

[deevey]

How do you buy other things from the Internet by not providing payment information to "every single website"?

Yeah there's Paypal, which can still be a part of these developers if they choose it, or not.

They can also choose to use Apple Pay, which is secure, and knowing that the people buying are Apple users, the chance of using Apple Pay is high, and probably for far less percentage cut than 15-30%.

Apple have already valued the payment processing part of apps as 3% to dutch regulators and 27% for everything else they provide, hosting, reviewing, app store placement, API's etc ...

 

[deevey]

I understand all of that but a third is still much too high. It’s almost preventative, in that some talented developers don’t even want to take the time on the platform

But it's not preventetive, if anything it means that anyone with an idea, and basic coding skills, can instantly build a company for $99 and a price of a single Mac. Virtually no other infrastructure costs required. No accountants, multi currency systems, global tax issues, servers, hosting, or even a website.

knowing they will ultimately be sacrificing a third of their efforts.

Only if they sell non-tangible items via IAP's. If its good software sold via subscription, they get to keep 85% after one year.

If their business model relies on persons making multiple purchases e.g. Epics' Vbucks I have no sympathy for the developer as they already set the decided "exchange rate" for those items in the first place and know what Apples' commission is.