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The error here is the customer is largely unaffected by the store policies. The developers are impacted tho, and unless they don’t want to make money they have to swallow their pride and develop for iOS users.
Has anyone had a conversation with these folks to let them know that… they don’t HAVE to be developers? There’s a WORLD of other professions out there that don’t require any developer level engagements with Apple. Or, do they really think, “I simply must be an iOS developer OR, I’ll just die!”?

There are things about raising livestock that I don’t like, that’s one of the reasons why I have made the conscious decision NOT to raise livestock.
 
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On MacOs it is possible to install anything and Apple doesn’t collect any fees when sales are made outside AppStore. Why iOS or iPadOS should be any different?
Because Apple wants it to be different. Not everything needs to be the same. Apple saw what they perceived to be flaws in the old model, so they chose a different model. The decision has been wildly successful.
 
It's clear many developers (and regulators in government) feel entitled to access to Apple's customer base without realizing or understanding (or maybe caring) that a large part of the reason Apple has a large, wealthy, and attractive customer base is BECAUSE of Apple's rules - not in spite of them.
Yes however the difference is these rules and regulations setup by said company has not changed with society as a whole since they were introduced and times have changed it’s not the early 2000’s anymore and some of these rules no longer fit into today’s society
 
On MacOs it is possible to install anything and Apple doesn’t collect any fees when sales are made outside AppStore. Why iOS or iPadOS should be any different? If consumer wants to stay in AppStore, that’s their choice. If the consumer wants to install other app, this should be possible without Apple charging for it, jusl like MacOS.

I let my nine-year-old walk down a busy street to his friends' house without supervision, why should it be any different with my three-year-old?

What's good for one isn't necessarily good for the other. MacOS and iOS are different platforms built in different eras, and were designed with different assumptions and different user bases (an exploit that impacted only 5% of iOS users would be equivalent to an exploit that impacted half of all Macs worldwide?). iOS was even designed after learning lessons from the Mac! The platforms serve different roles and audiences. The Mac is a workstation; the iPhone is a global communications hub. You design those with very different threat models.
 
On MacOs it is possible to install anything and Apple doesn’t collect any fees when sales are made outside AppStore. Why iOS or iPadOS should be any different? If consumer wants to stay in AppStore, that’s their choice. If the consumer wants to install other app, this should be possible without Apple charging for it, jusl like MacOS.
Because they make them and that’s what they want them to be? It really doesn’t have to go any deeper than that. They don’t want to make a food processor either, and they don’t. BUT, if they wanted to make a food processor and charge folks to pay for apps to run on that food processor, they’re free to do so.

And folks are free to not buy it. (Even though they may FEEL like they’re forced to buy it)
 
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Why stop at just the device?

This transaction took place connected to Comcast WiFi, so Comcast gets a cut. Goodbye net neutrality. Oh you charged your iPhone using PG&E power? Transaction wouldn't have been possible without those electrons, so PG&E gets a cut. If developers don't like it they can just sell their software to customers on other power platforms. Oh, you were sitting in an Aeron chair when you renewed your Netflix account? Well customers that are comfortable are more likely to spend more money, so that was an instrumental part of the transaction. Better be sending a check to Herman Miller.
 
Exactly. We are grown-ups and not kids. Let us decide what kind of risks we are willing to take.
You already can. No one forces you to buy an iPhone. Just because you don't want to use Android doesn't justify government interference in the free market - interference that will ABSOLUTELY lead to worse outcomes for a significant number of iOS users.
 
Yes however the difference is these rules and regulations setup by said company has not changed with society as a whole since they were introduced and times have changed it’s not the early 2000’s anymore and some of these rules no longer fit into today’s society
That's just not true. They have changed. They've gotten more permissive over time, charge smaller developers less, charge subscriptions less, etc.

And "times have changed" cuts both ways. The online world is far more interconnected and hostile now than when the App Store launched. There’s a reason Android is moving toward requiring developer registration for sideloaded and third-party store apps, the risks are real and multiplying.

If anything, the change in society strengthens Apple’s rationale for keeping a tighter ecosystem. To borrow my kid analogy above, you don’t loosen the rules when the playground gets more dangerous.
 
Maybe this will get Apple to lower their cut from app developers even more.
They’ll lower the cut to zero and start charging $2,000 a year to be a developer, plus $130/hr when someone needs to consult with an Apple developer. LOL

I mean, probably not, but there’s no law that says developers must only pay $99 a year regardless of how large they are or how often they contact Apple.
 
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You already can. No one forces you to buy an iPhone. Just because you don't want to use Android doesn't justify government interference in the free market - interference that will ABSOLUTELY lead to worse outcomes for a significant number of iOS users.
There is no real choice. If we had a third established open platform that was not owned by Google or Apple, I would agree with you. But that's unfortunately not the world we're living in.
 
There is no real choice. If we had a third established open platform that was not owned by Google or Apple, I would agree with you. But that's unfortunately not the world we're living in.
Just because you don't like the choice doesn't mean the choice doesn't exist. If you want an open ecosystem you have that choice; and you're supporting taking away the choice of a closed ecosystem from everyone because you find something distasteful about Android.

I also suspect a third platform would also have similar compromises people would find unacceptable and we'd just end up back in the same place of power users saying "I want to use iOS but I want the freedom of Android/ImaginaryOS - government make Apple do it" and the tiny but vocal subset of developers saying "It doesn't matter that Android/ImaginaryOS are open, the customers who actually spend money are on iOS so government needs to force Apple open."
 
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The problem is using the word “payments”. Apple isn’t taking 30% for payment processing. They’re taking 30% because they think they own you and the customer relationship and they think that’s worth 30%. But then I have to ask should cellular providers and ISPs get a cut of every Apple hardware sale because without them Apple’s hardware would be kinda worthless?
AT&T did get a cut of Apple revenue for a time. AND was exclusive to AT&T so they couldn’t even sell through another carrier. When they wanted to sell on another US carrier, they had to go back to AT&T and renegotiatel. I guess they COULD have complained to the government that they signed an agreement that they no longer like, but, for whatever reason, they didn’t.

If cellular providers and/or ISP’s think they can get a cut of every Apple hardware sale, they’re free to meet with Apple and try to get that deal done. There’s nothing stopping them from doing so.
 
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Just because you don't like the choice doesn't mean the choice doesn't exist. If you want an open ecosystem you have that choice; and you're supporting taking away the choice of a closed ecosystem from everyone because you find something distasteful about Android.

I also suspect a third platform would also have similar compromises people would find unacceptable and we'd just end up back in the same place of power users saying "I want to use iOS but I want the freedom of Android/ImaginaryOS - government make Apple do it" and the tiny but vocal subset of developers saying "It doesn't matter that Android/ImaginaryOS are open, the customers who actually spend money are on iOS so government needs to force Apple open."
There’s a choice but I don’t like the choice so I want choice but only if the choice is the choice I want to choose as a choice. Otherwise I’m choiceless!
 
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That's a false dichotomy. Developers don't have to choose between not making money and the App Store. They can also choose to make money on other platforms.

All the Apple naysayers who think Apple should be forced to open The App Store don’t like this argument because it represents an inconvenient truth for them.

And that’s the fact that the average iPhone user generates almost 4x the revenue as the average Android user.

If you want to make money as a mobile developer you NEED to be on iPhones.

Must be difficult for the anti-Apple crowd to know their best argument for opening up The App Store requires admitting Apple is the best. 😉
 
In the interest of good faith discourse, would it be too much to ask folks to not use the laugh emoji on these topics?

It’s really rather disrespectful.

If you have a counterpoint to make can we use text please?
 
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Like I said before: As long as I’m not forced to install a third-party App Store (or if I can disable the option to sideload), I’ll be fine. Apple’s App Store is all I need.
If allowed, you will be. Companies seem to be unable to avoid encrapifying themselves. Given the opportunity to force you to use their own App Store instead of Apple’s they’ll do it and tell you it’s a great idea at the same time. Then, when they end up leaking your financial details, they’ll get a slap on the wrist and just keep on rolling.
 
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I mean, probably not, but there’s no law that says developers must only pay $99 a year regardless of how large they are or how often they contact Apple.

Sure, let's go back to 1990 when an MPW C and Object Pascal bundle from APDA cost the equivalent of $1300 in today's dollars. For a mere $430 (today's dollars) more you could add on a beta C++ compiler. Just think of the value –– $1730 for a couple of primitive-programming-language compilers, access to ⅒th the function available in libraries, no semantic highlighting, no code completion, no simulators, no interactive debugging, no integrated versioning/source control/project model. It was just an expensive thin veneer between you and the bits.
 
I mean, the app literally won't function without using Apple's property. How can you honestly argue it isn't using Apple's property?
“I can’t run my Windows application, unmodified, on an Apple iPhone. That is an anticompetitive act by Apple! The Mac had BootCamp at one point, so Apple should be able to offer that same feature on iPhones! I should not need anything from Apple in order to run non-Apple code on Apple devices! I mean, except the framework from Apple they’d need to create to allow that to happen.. wait, APPLE SHOULD BE FORCED TO USE i86! That is the only thing that’s fair, it worked for Macs!!”
 
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That's just not true. They have changed. They've gotten more permissive over time, charge smaller developers less, charge subscriptions less, etc.

And "times have changed" cuts both ways. The online world is far more interconnected and hostile now than when the App Store launched. There’s a reason Android is moving toward requiring developer registration for sideloaded and third-party store apps, the risks are real and multiplying.

If anything, the change in society strengthens Apple’s rationale for keeping a tighter ecosystem. To borrow my kid analogy above, you don’t loosen the rules when the playground gets more dangerous.
times have changed since 2010 in relation to smartphones & how they are used for individuals daily lives and the rules and regulations that this company setup has not changed to reflect today’s reality
Now this company can accept it and change or it will be forced to change
 
“I can’t run my Windows application, unmodified, on an Apple iPhone. That is an anticompetitive act by Apple! The Mac had BootCamp at one point, so Apple should be able to offer that same feature on iPhones! I should not need anything from Apple in order to run non-Apple code on Apple devices! I mean, except the framework from Apple that would need to create to allow that to happen.. wait, APPLE SHOULD BE FORCED TO USE i86! That is the only thing that’s fair, it worked for Macs!!”
yeah I’m pretty sure epic hasn’t said it’s not fair I can’t run my windows application on my iPhone let’s sue apple for that.
 
That's a false dichotomy. Developers don't have to choose between not making money and the App Store. They can also choose to make money on other platforms.
They can chose between making less or more money, and I want to increase their opportunity to make money by allowing other stores and delivery methods to compete for the developers money and user traffic.
The irony of this statement is overwhelming.


They do. They charge $99 PLUS a commission subject to terms.


I disagree. Free OS updates started when the App Store opened.


As usual, you're pretending that the only value that Apple provides to developers is a store. You are well aware that's not true. The main value that Apple provides is the platform (which third-party stores do not.)
Is it ironic? The fee can increase or decrease or even use revenue sharing. The developer fee is adequate 1€ or 1.000.000.€ a year

iOS he free updates before the AppStore launched. Console had free updates, Linux had free updates and many more had it. Same with apps through the store as well. Developers bring equal value to apples platform.
Your error is assuming developers are entitled to use Apple's IP to make money. They're not.

If you are using someone else's property to make money, and they ask to be compensated for use of that property, then you need to pay them for that use or not use it. It doesn't matter that someone else gets it for free, or that you'd make less money. If you don't agree with their terms, then you need to decide what is more important to you and act accordingly.


They're not mandated to only sell in the mall. They can sell in the mall across the street, at the store next door, or online. But if they want access to the mall's customers, using the mall's property, then they need to pay the mall if the mall asks. They're not entitled to use the mall's property just because that's where most people in the town shop.
It’s not the malls customers. The customers happens to use the mall and can’t use any other mall nor acces any deals without an obligatory 30% service fee ontop. The property is the users

And I agree developers aren’t entitled, they pay the 99€ fee and can then include it in the app, or write their own code that runs on users devices and interact with their copy.
That’s like saying your $60 Costco membership means you can walk out with a TV for free. "I paid to walk into the store, so I don't see paying for the products in the store as a valid enforcement measure to collect revenue when its lopsided."

The $99 fee gets you access to the platform, not unlimited rights to monetize it however you want without sharing revenue.


I mean, the app literally won't function without using Apple's property. How can you honestly argue it isn't using Apple's property?
That Costco meiscto enter the store as a customer… you can still pay a fee to be in the store and then pay the commission for sales done from the store, then anything outside of it unless they opted for it. I have nonissue with fees in the store, only outside it.

Currently you can access the platform with unlimited right to monetize and use the Ip. Only exception if said app informs you of possible purchases or you conduct some special purchases.

If you enter money through some other means you are suddenly freecto purchase anything for free🤷‍♂️. Drive it by adds or usexthe browser but consume it in the app and it’s fine
Has anyone had a conversation with these folks to let them know that… they don’t HAVE to be developers? There’s a WORLD of other professions out there that don’t require any developer level engagements with Apple. Or, do they really think, “I simply must be an iOS developer OR, I’ll just die!”?

There are things about raising livestock that I don’t like, that’s one of the reasons why I have made the conscious decision NOT to raise livestock.
Have you thought about making it even easier for them? If they have great ideas I would prefer it’s as easy for them to profit off it and provide it to be in the best way possible. Why should someone who wants to raise livestock or develop apps have it harder for no reason but being in the way?
If allowed, you will be. Companies seem to be unable to avoid encrapifying themselves. Given the opportunity to force you to use their own App Store instead of Apple’s they’ll do it and tell you it’s a great idea at the same time. Then, when they end up leaking your financial details, they’ll get a slap on the wrist and just keep on rolling.
Not a single company can force any of you into using a store as long as you can use alternative option your device.
This is a good thing for customers like me.

I need Apple to work as as shield against developers. I don't want anything from them except their apps and services.
Then continue with only their store
 
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