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Apple and Nike?
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jelloshotsrule said:
Agreed. I think the area of disagreement is one of whether or not boycotting Nike will improve the plight of those children in the sweatshops. If the boycott improves working conditions without losing jobs in the factory then I certainly agree with that. Of course, if paying more increases costs and causes Nike to lose market share and thus fire those kids, then it's arguable that their lives haven't been improved. But I don't see anything wrong with working to improve conditions.
Note also that a lot of non-third world people work for Nike as well, and boycotting the company might cost those people their jobs as well. Better to work with them than against them.
This is so vague as to be meaningless.Daschund said:
And what do workers who make $200 sneakers have to do with someone flipping $1 burgers?
And since when has McDonalds been the paragon of corporate responsibility?
Really? What did these people do before Nike blessed them with "jobs"?Daschund said:
jsw said:
I'm heartened to learn that you wouldn't stand in the way of improving their conditions. You're quite a guy!
jelloshotsrule said:
One man's "greed" is another's "ambition". Without greed/ambition, we'd still be living in caves. Greed/ambition drives innovation, drives the economy, and improves lives through better product quality and choice.
Unchecked greed without empathy is, of course, bad. But I still don't count Nike selling shoes for $129 as proof the Devil walks among us.
Do you negotiate for the lowest possible wage from your employer, the minimum amount you can accept to survive? Doubtful, given that you can email. Some greed is good. Calling it "greed" brands it as bad, when it isn't necessarily so.
bar italia said:
Thank you. I didn't know you cared.
Of course I'd like their conditions to improve. I'm only arguing about whether boycotting Nike, or, by extension, Apple, will help.
ha ha ha, funny guy
my 'sole means,' come on man, you don't know me from any of the other geeks on this ridiculous board. how do you know what i am doing to help stop the abuse of sweatshops? come on man, i laugh at you.
send them money - great, so it is a sink, a constant need and a constant dollar from me. rather than from the overpaid executives of nike, or how about tiger woods or mia hamm or one of the other over paid athletes getting millions for endorsements. distribute. yes. i will do what i can, and i will tackle the sweatshop issue in ways that I feel i can to make a true difference, including, but not limited to, your bandaid suggestions.
stop sitting in front of your computer - ha ha ha....ha ha ha. i laugh at you again. i am at work, taking a break from what i was doing because someone sent me a message about this sick campaign and so i checked it out, i saw your foolish response and had to say something.
ha ha ha.
my 'sole means,' come on man, you don't know me from any of the other geeks on this ridiculous board. how do you know what i am doing to help stop the abuse of sweatshops? come on man, i laugh at you.
send them money - great, so it is a sink, a constant need and a constant dollar from me. rather than from the overpaid executives of nike, or how about tiger woods or mia hamm or one of the other over paid athletes getting millions for endorsements. distribute. yes. i will do what i can, and i will tackle the sweatshop issue in ways that I feel i can to make a true difference, including, but not limited to, your bandaid suggestions.
stop sitting in front of your computer - ha ha ha....ha ha ha. i laugh at you again. i am at work, taking a break from what i was doing because someone sent me a message about this sick campaign and so i checked it out, i saw your foolish response and had to say something.
ha ha ha.
jsw said:
jsw said:
Do you know what "greed" means? It is by definition a negative term.
"An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth: Many... attach to competition the stigma of selfish greed.
I suppose it's easier to base your personal beliefs on "Wall Street" than open a ***** book.
I don't like Nike shoes, not for political reasons, but just the shoes themselves. Still though, this is another good move for Apple. They are finnaly getting the right idea when it comes to winning market share. Putting your name everywhere, being recognized as a major player. How can someone call Apple an insignifigant company when it is teamed up with America's biggest fast food chain, second largest soda company and most popular shoes? It may not persuade the more savvy computer users, but the general public (Sales machine) are swayed by things like that.
PS- Vans is the only shoe you will see my feet in
PS- Vans is the only shoe you will see my feet in
for the love of sweatshops
it is not simply about a low wage, in fact, it has very llittle to do withthat. and likewise, little, if anything, to do with outsourcing jobs.
it has to do with torture and murder of employees for trying to organize labor. something recognized as a fundamental human right. it has to do with being forced to bleed on the factory floor because your supervisor won't let you take a break when you are having your period. it is about 8 year old children ruining their hands to make your shoes because the wage that their mother and father make is not enough to feed their family. it is about the government taking the land from these people once used to farm and provide food and an existence for them before nike's big money came in. it is about nike burning shoe rubber at the end of each day, polluting the air and water and causing increases in disease and cancer. it is about the rape of workers.
come on man, open your eyes. it is not about american jobs. it is not about low wages. it is about corporate domination and the lack of accountability. not everyone benefits from capitalism, and certainly not everyone benefits from nike.
come out of your cave.
it is not simply about a low wage, in fact, it has very llittle to do withthat. and likewise, little, if anything, to do with outsourcing jobs.
it has to do with torture and murder of employees for trying to organize labor. something recognized as a fundamental human right. it has to do with being forced to bleed on the factory floor because your supervisor won't let you take a break when you are having your period. it is about 8 year old children ruining their hands to make your shoes because the wage that their mother and father make is not enough to feed their family. it is about the government taking the land from these people once used to farm and provide food and an existence for them before nike's big money came in. it is about nike burning shoe rubber at the end of each day, polluting the air and water and causing increases in disease and cancer. it is about the rape of workers.
come on man, open your eyes. it is not about american jobs. it is not about low wages. it is about corporate domination and the lack of accountability. not everyone benefits from capitalism, and certainly not everyone benefits from nike.
come out of your cave.
If you want to change the world, you have to have a bit of power. Little Apple of today seem for the most part to have a healthy attitude to business, and to be honest, if they sleep with the enemy at times to get to the top so they can do basically a good job for lots more people, then I wouldnt disagree with their alliances. It is a really dirty world of trade out there, I know first hand, and even with good motives, being a totally good guy gets you nowhere. If Apple's basic premise is profit-making through making a positive difference to everyone touched by one of their computers, then fine. If not and they stamp on everyone every which way from hereon in, then they would deserve to be screwed royally.
Those of you saying boycott Nike etc to help poor people in the Third World are also terribly naive. Again it is not a nice fair world out there, but the kids I have met in my involvements with development work would be far better off working for peanuts making you nice trainers rather than sniffing petrol before walking the streets prostituting themselves. Write to Nike and get your friends to write to Nike and shout at them and make them really uncomfortable and shame them into changing whatever it is they do that you dont like. Or better still, make a big difference yourselves and send your spare cash to projects in towns in the Third World that are promoting self help enterprise schemes. Or get off your ass and take a skill abroad and offer it for nothing for a year. It might even make your CV shine and in the long run you can reap the rewards of learning the hard way about the real world outside your comfy back yards.
Time to put on my Nike trainers and jog off for a big mac
Those of you saying boycott Nike etc to help poor people in the Third World are also terribly naive. Again it is not a nice fair world out there, but the kids I have met in my involvements with development work would be far better off working for peanuts making you nice trainers rather than sniffing petrol before walking the streets prostituting themselves. Write to Nike and get your friends to write to Nike and shout at them and make them really uncomfortable and shame them into changing whatever it is they do that you dont like. Or better still, make a big difference yourselves and send your spare cash to projects in towns in the Third World that are promoting self help enterprise schemes. Or get off your ass and take a skill abroad and offer it for nothing for a year. It might even make your CV shine and in the long run you can reap the rewards of learning the hard way about the real world outside your comfy back yards.
Time to put on my Nike trainers and jog off for a big mac
bar italia said:
My point was simply that calling something "greed" gives it a negative connotation, even though it might not, in fact, be negative.
And thank you for the assertion that my vocabulary comes from Michael Douglas movies.
ha ha ha #2
it is not about helping the poor people (directly) either. it is about not supporting the evil that nike is responsible for, and all of those that give them money and support their efforts are responsible for. the people still have to prostitute themselves because they can't feed their families. what more, they are raped at work by their NIKE bosses. i agree, not all sweatshops are equal, and not all low wage labor is a bad thing, but this is nike, and this is a story of rape and abuse of people.
if you looked at the link i posted, nikewages.org is about helping the people, about educating, and about making a change. they have approached phil knight, they offered to work in a sweatshop, they also went and lived witht he poor villagers doing nike's dirty work....so yeah, i am a part of that.
get off my ass - i love it. you make me laugh too. ha ha ha. i laugh. comfy back yards, ha ha ha. i will continue to despite nike. and will do what i can to work for justice. and then laugh because you make me.
it is not about helping the poor people (directly) either. it is about not supporting the evil that nike is responsible for, and all of those that give them money and support their efforts are responsible for. the people still have to prostitute themselves because they can't feed their families. what more, they are raped at work by their NIKE bosses. i agree, not all sweatshops are equal, and not all low wage labor is a bad thing, but this is nike, and this is a story of rape and abuse of people.
if you looked at the link i posted, nikewages.org is about helping the people, about educating, and about making a change. they have approached phil knight, they offered to work in a sweatshop, they also went and lived witht he poor villagers doing nike's dirty work....so yeah, i am a part of that.
get off my ass - i love it. you make me laugh too. ha ha ha. i laugh. comfy back yards, ha ha ha. i will continue to despite nike. and will do what i can to work for justice. and then laugh because you make me.
billyboy said:
gelbin said:
Once again, if you think that boycotting Nike will improve the conditions in those factories, as opposed to simply having Nike pull out and having the factory produce goods for another corporation, then power to you.
I'm not pro-torture. I simply believe - naively perhaps - that boycotting Nike won't improve things.
Clearly, this is a religious issue. My opinion is that, if this alliance improves Apple's sales, then that's good. Otherwise, it's bad. I think that almost any global manufacturer violates rights or allows them to be violated or doesn't bother to ensure that that aren't violated. However, I can't lead a life without buying globally-produced products unless I want to severely limit my standard of living and that of my family.
So, I will buy Nike products. You won't. Fine by me. I'll buy Macs even if Apple aligns with Nike. Presumably, you won't.
I just think it's wrong to argue that I'm completely blind to some horrible evil when, clearly, there's a variety of opinion to be had here as to the best way to proceed.
gelbin said:
Granted. Likewise.
gelbin said:
Granted. Likewise. You chose sweatshops, I choose other things. We all have our causes.
gelbin said:
Well, yes, agreed, it'd be better to provide them with a means to provide for themselves. However, that's a tall order.
gelbin said:
Presumably, you are not overpaid. Atheletes get millions because they bring in millions. It's worth the money, else companies wouldn't pay them. Overpaid executives? Yes. Of course, that's true nearly everywhere. Yes, true, they could donate money as well. Although it seems like you're arguing against donating money to them.
gelbin said:
I'm not arguing that they're good suggestions. Frankly, I doubt you can make much of a change in their lives no matter what you do, unless you can organize a large enough group to effect change. Perhaps you can.
gelbin said:
Ah, so you are overpaid.
I apologize for anything I said - here or before - which was insulting. If what I wrote was offensive, I am sorry. However, it wasn't that fun to be told that I made you sick. Sorry if I overreacted.
I still think that boycotting Nike won't change anything. However, I will look at the links.
ha ha ha #3
just kidding, jsw.
i at least appreciate your level-headedness about this.
yeah, i have my causes, but they don't stop at sweatshops.
and i don't buy nike, and i don't eat meat, and i try to limit supporting things that i don't agree with fundamentally, and that has not changed my life that dramatically, or my standard of living as you would say. i think that is a bit of a cop out, on yours, or anyone's part that would offer that thought.
yes. i am overpaid. and i understand that. and i distribute my income. which, by the way, i was not saying not to donate, but i was saying that donation is not a solution. for example, i take homeless people to dinner with me. it is not a solution. on the other hand, it is better than handing them crack money. and it is a maintenance step while i work toward a more level distribution of wealth.
just kidding, jsw.
i at least appreciate your level-headedness about this.
yeah, i have my causes, but they don't stop at sweatshops.
and i don't buy nike, and i don't eat meat, and i try to limit supporting things that i don't agree with fundamentally, and that has not changed my life that dramatically, or my standard of living as you would say. i think that is a bit of a cop out, on yours, or anyone's part that would offer that thought.
yes. i am overpaid. and i understand that. and i distribute my income. which, by the way, i was not saying not to donate, but i was saying that donation is not a solution. for example, i take homeless people to dinner with me. it is not a solution. on the other hand, it is better than handing them crack money. and it is a maintenance step while i work toward a more level distribution of wealth.
jelloshotsrule said:
i like to think we're in iraq so it can be safe for me to go on a plane again, not to get fancy discounts
one last thing jsw
i don't know you. as you don't know me. but i know what you said. and i attacked that. you, on the other hand, attacked beyond what i said, implying or assuming that i was not fighting for anything, not doing anything to improve the world, not working to end sweatshops (other than a 'boycott' of nike or banter on macrumors).
i don't know you. as you don't know me. but i know what you said. and i attacked that. you, on the other hand, attacked beyond what i said, implying or assuming that i was not fighting for anything, not doing anything to improve the world, not working to end sweatshops (other than a 'boycott' of nike or banter on macrumors).
Wonder Boy said:
how did you reach that conclusion?
i'm glad you "like to think" that.. unfortunately, i like to think that you are far from the truth in terms of our real reason for being there, or even that it will have the results you think it will
but, let's save that for the political forum
gelbin- jsw did in fact apologize if he offended you, no?
ha ha ha #4?
gelbin said:
In all fairness, man, you said:
"sweatshops sicken me...jsw, and the likes of you who claim that wanting to avoid sweatshops is about ignorance, you sicken me too."
That's pretty direct. Not "your opinions sicken me" - "you sicken me". hence my reaction. Not defending it. Just trying to explain it. I was put out by it.
gelbin said:
Damn, this is disconcerting. I actually agree with you, gelbin. What is the world coming to? Had Apple aligned with Halliburton, say, we'd even have been on the same side this entire thread. Frightening.
Yeah, I think it's bad policy to get your allies to hate you. Not generally one of the top ten ways to succeed. Nor do I feel any safer. I feel duped. I also know someone who was killed over there, so I'd have to say it'd be pretty hard to justify it to me. On the other hand, I support, to a large degree, actions in Afghanistan.
I suppose now I need to stop eating meat and start taking the homeless out to dinner.
Actually, I volunteer at a soup kitchen/homeless shelter, so I guess that counts.- Status