Apple Apologizes Over 'Small Number' of Users Who Continue to Have Issues With Third-Generation MacBook Keyboards

[farewelwilliams]

Are you claiming that others do not enjoy their work.

No. You said I was excited because I had limited experience. I said I'm excited because I enjoyed the work. No where did I say or even suggest close to "others do not enjoy their work". Why would you even think that?

Incorrect, you made the claim that maybe I do not have the energy to work in front of a computer 20+ hours. Why would I want to waste my time doing that, I have better things to do with my hours that I prefer allowing to my work. Thats right I prioritize

You're mixing up conversations now. You were saying that that the "high" is associated primarily with drug users. I'm saying it's not. This part of the conversation has very little to do of me suggesting that you may or may not be able to handle it.

Claiming that just because one is in their 20's does not necessary mean their have energy, which in itself is subjective. What are you comparing your energy level, that you can work 20+ hours in front of a computer. Give me a break, I have the energy to work over 24 hours, does that mean I want to do it, nope. Priorities, plus are you claiming working 20+ hours without rest is health, are you a medical doctor. Even the science states that lack of sleep if detrimental to ones health. Cliche referred to your claim of running X amount of miles, where did you get that from a marketing poster.

I was simply pointing out you were contradicting yourself in that paragraph. This part of the conversation has nothing to do with whether you could or could not pull off a 20 hour night.

You're sounding very defensive for some reason.

What is occasional? All I need to know about your diet is that if you claim to be working 20+ hours, that leave 4 hours in that day for sleep, eating, drinking, washroom breaks and however long your run take. Colour me skeptical to your claim.

You first say that you could work 20+ hours if you wanted to, now you're skeptical that I ever did a 20+ hour work day? Are you kidding me?

Sounds like that invincible complex being revealed.

Simply using your words:
"I don't want to sit 20 hours in front of a computer it is my choice."
-by code-m

Why would anyone want to watch a movie of you typing code 20 hours a day for several day to even make the first space flight to the moon possible? Even Oscar winning movies only briefly mention this, you know why, its booorrring. Who cares how much money you made or saved, you are making it sound like its impossible. If you saved a life that was in danger, I want to hear about that, loosing/gaining $75 seed funding that multiplied X folds tells me that only one thing is important to you.

"The Social Network" has nothing to do with space flight or saving lives that were in danger. Turned out to be a nice movie. My stories relate well with that movie.

Thanks for bragging about how much money you were able to multiple once, clearly signs of a complex.

I was simply conveying a crazy story that I experienced.

Anyways, let's look at the things you wrote so far:
=====================================
" I have been doing this common sense practice since I began receiving any form of monetary compensation."
"I get compensated very well, by comparison I work less than your 20+ hours a day in front of a computer and make a comparable salary"
"Actually I have a lot of passion doing my job, am compensated very well"
"I work less than your 20+ hours a day in front of a computer and make a comparable salary"
=====================================
Not once did I ask about your compensation but you mentioned it four times. I mentioned money (not even my compensation) only once this entire conversation. Sounds like you're the one with a complex.

I'm not going to read anymore of your post. You seem to be getting very defensive and bringing up things that are either attacking me or bragging about something I didn't really ask about.

Feel free to reply, but I'm not going to read anymore replies from you.

 

[toptekjon]

The butterfly keyboard design completely took the joy out of typing on my MacBook Pro away from me. Used to be effortless and accurate on old designs. Typing is now a chore.

Sorry to hear that. I seem to be in the minority, but I absolutely love my 2018 MacBook keyboard. It’s actually my favorite keyboard that I have ever typed on. Extremely fast and accurate and I just love the way it feels.

 

[thunderburp]

I have questions related to KB replacement on a 2017 MBP that I am about to send for repair.

Is there any point?
Is the replacement actually a modified version of what's already in a 2017?
Is the the same as the 2018? (Which is also problematic.)

My point is that I am wondering if it is even worth bothering (and not having my computer for 10+ days). I have cans of compressed air, which may be the only needed "fix".

I've been through this ordeal three times now.
Twice with a 2017 non-touchbar MBP and recently with a touchbar 2018.

• Your mac will be gone for at least 2 weeks each time and come back
wiped clean, so don't forget your backup.

Some tidbits I was told over coffee by my 2nd apple repair shop:

• They are flooded with broken keyboards.
Apple no longer allows them to swap the expensive top-case right away.
Instead they are required to replace individual keycaps first. You only get the
new topcase after you bring in the machine a 2nd or third time.

• In his experience the keycap fix rarely lasts. He says the same machines
come back usually only weeks later.

• Every single MBP with this keyboard design will eventually be affected unless you store it in a drawer and never use it.

• Even when the topcase is replaced you get the same keyboard type that you sent in.
Send a non-membrane version and you get the same back.

• Apple doesn't acknowledge that the membrane was an attempt to fix the sticky key problem
because that would open them to legal liability.

• In addition to the widely known sticky keys problems he has seen devices
where the keycaps had literally fallen off (the super flimsy clips broke).

My personal lesson...

So I'm on my 2nd topcase in this new mbp now and it's already failing again (after 2 months).

I'm making do with an app called Unshaky (https://github.com/aahung/Unshaky)
which keeps it usable so far.

When that stops working, too, I'll send it for a last repair and then sell it on Ebay.

I will most certainly not buy a Macbook with this keyboard type again.

 

[retta283]

The current MacBook line is ruined by this keyboard issue. If they simply would reuse the retina design they would have a fine laptop.

 

[jdag]

I've been through this ordeal three times now.
Twice with a 2017 non-touchbar MBP and recently with a touchbar 2018.

• Your mac will be gone for at least 2 weeks each time and come back
wiped clean, so don't forget your backup.

Some tidbits I was told over coffee by my 2nd apple repair shop:

• They are flooded with broken keyboards.
Apple no longer allows them to swap the expensive top-case right away.
Instead they are required to replace individual keycaps first. You only get the
new topcase after you bring in the machine a 2nd or third time.

• In his experience the keycap fix rarely lasts. He says the same machines
come back usually only weeks later.

• Every single MBP with this keyboard design will eventually be affected unless you store it in a drawer and never use it.

• Even when the topcase is replaced you get the same keyboard type that you sent in.
Send a non-membrane version and you get the same back.

• Apple doesn't acknowledge that the membrane was an attempt to fix the sticky key problem
because that would open them to legal liability.

• In addition to the widely known sticky keys problems he has seen devices
where the keycaps had literally fallen off (the super flimsy clips broke).

My personal lesson...

So I'm on my 2nd topcase in this new mbp now and it's already failing again (after 2 months).

View attachment 829883

I'm making do with an app called Unshaky (https://github.com/aahung/Unshaky)
which keeps it usable so far.

When that stops working, too, I'll send it for a last repair and then sell it on Ebay.

I will most certainly not buy a Macbook with this keyboard type again.

Thanks for the info. I rec'd the box to ship the laptop back, but I have several business trips coming in the next few weeks so I cannot send the machine out.

 

[LordVic]

The ThinkPad X1 Carbon keyboard is so much better. I'd trade my Terrible Touch Bar MBP for the X1 in an instant if it ran macOS.

@ Apple, I work in IT, people ask me for computer recommendations. For the first time in a long time I cannot recommennd (sic, keyboard) your product.

As someone in IT, I had to stop recommending Apple when they started soldering storage onto their computers.

The numer one failure on almost all computers that I have supported, not just work, but friends and family are failing storage. SSD's are not immune to this by any stretch of the imagination. I've personally experienced a dying SSD. My father's computer recently had it's SSD give up. We have had computers at work with SSD's also go.

First: SSD's are cheap, even NVME based drives. they're generally easy to replace. There's no excuse for requiring a complete system board change for a failed storage drive. End of story.

 

[dyt1983]

Sorry to hear that. I seem to be in the minority, but I absolutely love my 2018 MacBook keyboard. It’s actually my favorite keyboard that I have ever typed on. Extremely fast and accurate and I just love the way it feels.

I like the feel as well, I find it to be much better for typing than the previous non-touchbar retina. The pre-butterfly keyboard has something about it (too much space between flat top keys?) that makes it unfriendly to my fingers, where on my desktops I use keyboards that have significant travel and sculpted tops. Even on iPad keyboards I can type better because of the lack of space between keys.

However, the keyboards are clearly unreliable, and that is the main problem.

I've been through this ordeal three times now.
Twice with a 2017 non-touchbar MBP and recently with a touchbar 2018.

• Your mac will be gone for at least 2 weeks each time and come back
wiped clean, so don't forget your backup.

That's unfortunate that you had such an experience. I brought my 2018 MBP15 in because of two sticky keys (well one was broken because I tried to clean it). It was taken on a Wednesday morning, shipped to Texas from California, top case replaced and the machine was back on my doorstep by 10:30am Friday. It would have been shipped out Tuesday except I wanted to do an image backup, but I failed at that and did a slow Time Machine full backup. It was all for naught as the system came back with all information intact, I just had to reenable the firmware password.

 

[toptekjon]

I like the feel as well, I find it to be much better for typing than the previous non-touchbar retina. The pre-butterfly keyboard has something about it (too much space between flat top keys?) that makes it unfriendly to my fingers, where on my desktops I use keyboards that have significant travel and sculpted tops. Even on iPad keyboards I can type better because of the lack of space between keys.

However, the keyboards are clearly unreliable, and that is the main problem.



That's unfortunate that you had such an experience. I brought my 2018 MBP15 in because of two sticky keys (well one was broken because I tried to clean it). It was taken on a Wednesday morning, shipped to Texas from California, top case replaced and the machine was back on my doorstep by 10:30am Friday. It would have been shipped out Tuesday except I wanted to do an image backup, but I failed at that and did a slow Time Machine full backup. It was all for naught as the system came back with all information intact, I just had to reenable the firmware password.

Absolutely, the reliability issue needs to be resolved! Apple needs to make sure their customers continue to trust them and their products. I just hope it doesn’t mean the feel of the keyboard has to change significantly in order to accomplish that.

 

[31 Flavas]

Some tidbits I was told over coffee by my 2nd apple repair shop:

• They are flooded with broken keyboards.
Apple no longer allows them to swap the expensive top-case right away.
Instead they are required to replace individual keycaps first. You only get the
new topcase after you bring in the machine a 2nd or third time.

• In his experience the keycap fix rarely lasts. He says the same machines
come back usually only weeks later.

Apple is greedy, right? They want mountains and mountains of money. Why would Apple provide very expensive essentially perpetual (near) whole system replaces across multiple models and generations. I mean, ego for the butterfly keyboard is one thing - but to support that ego they'll spend all that money they've lifted from customers to work around their own engineered non-repairability of the laptops? Not just once, but twice, three times, four times? They're so dedicated to their greed at the point of sale that they'll spend everything and more in replacement support to keep the butterfly keyboard?

The logic to this doesn't make sense.

• Every single MBP with this keyboard design will eventually be affected unless you store it in a drawer and never use it.

So I am just the equivalent to a single ticket single winner of a $1 Billion dollar Powerball lottery drawing when I purchased my 2016 15" retina touchbar MBP with it's butterfly keyboard that fails twice as frequently as older models? It's been in use: outside of a drawer, traveled across the country, in and out of my backpack, it's even been on the same table as crumbly food. It's also been used to video game - World of Warcraft, Diablo III, Starcraft II. So it's been heated repeatedly and left in the cold. Still functions without any problem and without any repairs. So when is this supposed to happen - because from what I read it is just straight up dust that's supposed to cause this. Not being a dumbass and chewing crackers overtop of the laptop keyboard.

 

[Damtoft]

So I am just the equivalent to a single ticket single winner of a $1 Billion dollar Powerball lottery drawing when I purchased my 2016 15" retina touchbar MBP with it's butterfly keyboard that fails twice as frequently as older models? It's been in use: outside of a drawer, traveled across the country, in and out of my backpack, it's even been on the same table as crumbly food. It's also been used to video game - World of Warcraft, Diablo III, Starcraft II. So it's been heated repeatedly and left in the cold. Still functions without any problem and without any repairs. So when is this supposed to happen - because from what I read it is just straight up dust that's supposed to cause this. Not being a dumbass and chewing crackers overtop of the laptop keyboard.

Then you have been extremely lucky. I have had issues with around 12 individual keycaps since I got my macbook in 2017.

 

[cool11]

Let me ask you something, especially mbp owners who like to take a more special care for their machines:
do third-party manufacturers, like moshi etc, still sell good keyboard/skin covers on the market, for use with the latest mbp models with these butterfly keyboards?

I have one in my current late 2013 15' model, from moshi (clearguard), and it is really a product that protects my keyboard from everything.

Of course there is no excuse by apple's side to use faulty keyboards. But I do take my own precautions too, as a user.
I want to be able to have such an option when I will buy a new mbp.

 

[BigMcGuire]

Let me ask you something, especially mbp owners who like to take a more special care for their machines:
do third-party manufacturers, like moshi etc, still sell good keyboard/skin covers on the market, for use with the latest mbp models with these butterfly keyboards?

I have one in my current late 2013 15' model, from moshi (clearguard), and it is really a product that protects my keyboard from everything.

Of course there is no excuse by apple's side to use faulty keyboards. But I do take my own precautions too, as a user.
I want to be able to have such an option when I will buy a new mbp.

The keyboard vents a lot of heat during cpu intensive tasks. Also the keyboard is way too low profile to use a keyboard skin. Wife and I have used our 2017 MBP for over a year now every day without issue. My wife is getting a PhD so she is a heavy user.

I used a moshi on my 2015 MBA for a month but it yellowed bad. The 2016 keyboard is way too low profile to use a skin comfortably. IMO.

 

[Baymowe335]

Y’all have definitely overreacted to this. If you have an issue, take it to Apple and make them fix it.

Apple sold 18M Macs in 2018, a majority laptops. You think they have a design flaw and the only made minor changes in 2019? You’re dreaming.

 

[Dave245]

Y’all have definitely overreacted to this. If you have an issue, take it to Apple and make them fix it.

Apple sold 18M Macs in 2018, a majority laptops. You think they have a design flaw and the only made minor changes in 2019? You’re dreaming.

You make it sound like it’s not Apples fault. If a lot of people are having issues then Apple should do something to fix it. It’s also the effect it has on peoples perception, now that this has all blown up people may not trust Apple Keyboards anymore.

Also saying take it to Apple and make them fix it isn’t the point. What about the inconvenience to people who rely on their machines? People like myself who are writers, editors and so on, basically people who use their machines daily.

Apple made a mistake, I’m not saying they should be crucified for it. I’m an Apple fan and I still love Apple devices, they just need to fix the issues properly and give people confidence back in the machines.

 

[BigMcGuire]

And they are, right? AppleInsider's polls of Apple Store repairs show that this laptop has less issues than previous MacBook Pros - including the keyboard issues.

The repair program shows that Apple is standing behind their product. Personally, I would have loved a 6, 8, 10, 15 year keyboard repair program but no company ever does this. 4 years is pretty cool. I've never had a laptop where the keyboard was covered for 4 years.

People love to blow up issues as it gets attention and media sites love the ad revenue generated from such blowups. They love Apple for this reason, Macrumors included.

 

[Dave245]

And they are, right? AppleInsider's polls of Apple Store repairs show that this laptop has less issues than previous MacBook Pros - including the keyboard issues.

The repair program shows that Apple is standing behind their product. Personally, I would have loved a 6, 8, 10, 15 year keyboard repair program but no company ever does this. 4 years is pretty cool. I've never had a laptop where the keyboard was covered for 4 years.

People love to blow up issues as it gets attention and media sites love the ad revenue generated from such blowups. They love Apple for this reason, Macrumors included.

Yes they are, I haven’t seen anything from an AppleInster poll, do you have a link? It’s good that Apple are working to correct the issue. My point is that people need to wait and see, we don’t know if the keyboard is fixed with the 2019 model since it hasn’t been out long enough.

We shouldn’t jump to conclusions one way or the other, I’m sure in time we will see. It’s a great thing that Apple have put the keyboard in the program for 4 years! I think some people are reading into it that Apple haven’t fixed the issue and that’s why it’s in there already.

I’m in the market for a new MacBook Pro 13” but at the moment I’m not convinced that the issue is fixed. That’s and issue for Apple, a lot of things are about perception, how many people are thinking the same thing? I will give credit to Apple where it’s due, but at the same time they created the problem in the first place.

 

[BigMcGuire]

Yes they are, I haven’t seen anything from an AppleInster poll, do you have a link? It’s good that Apple are working to correct the issue. My point is that people need to wait and see, we don’t know if the keyboard is fixed with the 2019 model since it hasn’t been out long enough.

We shouldn’t jump to conclusions one way or the other, I’m sure in time we will see. It’s a great thing that Apple have put the keyboard in the program for 4 years! I think some people are reading into it that Apple haven’t fixed the issue and that’s why it’s in there already.

I’m in the market for a new MacBook Pro 13” but at the moment I’m not convinced that the issue is fixed. That’s and issue for Apple, a lot of things are about perception, how many people are thinking the same thing? I will give credit to Apple where it’s due, but at the same time they created the problem in the first place.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...em-to-improve-reliability-and-thats-not-great

"Overall, the total number of service calls is lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro, versus the older models, even including the keyboard failures."

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...-at-a-faster-rate-than-the-butterfly-keyboard

"Tom Warren of the Verge tweeted that "Apple is trying to fix its broken MacBook keyboard design again," but like most reports taking aim at Apple's butterfly keyboard, there was no effort made to quantify the issue. There isn't data showing the MacBook keyboard is "broken." Instead, it remains a nebulous complaint that is suggested to be an industry-worst failure rate without any real data supporting that."

"AppleInsider has been tracking MacBook keyboard failure rates since 2016, and we've collected real-world data ranging all the way back to the 2012 MacBook Pro with Retina Display. As we reported earlier this year, given about the same number of MacBook Pro sales year-over-year, the total number of service calls were lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro in their first years of service, compared to earlier models, even when including keyboard failures."

"Additionally, we found that keyboard failure percentages for 2016 and 2017 "butterfly" MacBooks specifically were unchanged from the first year and beyond, and there has been no surge of people seeking repairs after Apple launched its keyboard repair program, despite significant media reports concerning problems with the butterfly keyboard and publicizing the repair program."

"Since the 2017 MacBook Pro launched with a revised butterfly design, repair service data is very clear that the keyboards it used were better from a reliability standpoint."

 

[Dave245]

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...em-to-improve-reliability-and-thats-not-great

"Overall, the total number of service calls is lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro, versus the older models, even including the keyboard failures."

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...-at-a-faster-rate-than-the-butterfly-keyboard

"Tom Warren of the Verge tweeted that "Apple is trying to fix its broken MacBook keyboard design again," but like most reports taking aim at Apple's butterfly keyboard, there was no effort made to quantify the issue. There isn't data showing the MacBook keyboard is "broken." Instead, it remains a nebulous complaint that is suggested to be an industry-worst failure rate without any real data supporting that."

"AppleInsider has been tracking MacBook keyboard failure rates since 2016, and we've collected real-world data ranging all the way back to the 2012 MacBook Pro with Retina Display. As we reported earlier this year, given about the same number of MacBook Pro sales year-over-year, the total number of service calls were lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro in their first years of service, compared to earlier models, even when including keyboard failures."

"Additionally, we found that keyboard failure percentages for 2016 and 2017 "butterfly" MacBooks specifically were unchanged from the first year and beyond, and there has been no surge of people seeking repairs after Apple launched its keyboard repair program, despite significant media reports concerning problems with the butterfly keyboard and publicizing the repair program."

"Since the 2017 MacBook Pro launched with a revised butterfly design, repair service data is very clear that the keyboards it used were better from a reliability standpoint."

Let’s hope the 2019 MacBook Pro keyboard is even better. Not sure when we will see the rumoured 16” MacBook Pro with new design tho.

 

[Ghost31]

Yes they are, I haven’t seen anything from an AppleInster poll, do you have a link? It’s good that Apple are working to correct the issue. My point is that people need to wait and see, we don’t know if the keyboard is fixed with the 2019 model since it hasn’t been out long enough.

We shouldn’t jump to conclusions one way or the other, I’m sure in time we will see. It’s a great thing that Apple have put the keyboard in the program for 4 years! I think some people are reading into it that Apple haven’t fixed the issue and that’s why it’s in there already.

I’m in the market for a new MacBook Pro 13” but at the moment I’m not convinced that the issue is fixed. That’s and issue for Apple, a lot of things are about perception, how many people are thinking the same thing? I will give credit to Apple where it’s due, but at the same time they created the problem in the first place.

Weren’t you just saying the other day when we talked that you were gonna jump on the MacBook Pro next time then update because you needed one so bad? And now you’re back to your old position of waiting? I swear the same thing happened sometime last fall. Myself and others talked to you and said you were finally going to cave and just give it a try. I suspect at this point you were never serious and it was all just talk

 

[Dave245]

Weren’t you just saying the other day when we talked that you were gonna jump on the MacBook Pro next time then update because you needed one so bad? And now you’re back to your old position of waiting? I swear the same thing happened sometime last fall. Myself and others talked to you and said you were finally going to cave and just give it a try. I suspect at this point you were never serious and it was all just talk

Yes I did say that I would be jumping to get one next time they update! We spoke about the keyboard reliability. I’ve spoken about the MacBook Pro, MacBook Air and the 12” MacBook over the last couple of years. I have been wanting to upgrade from the 2012 MacBook Pro that I had and died late last year. I have been watching the latest videos on the 2019 MacBook Pro’s, I’m waiting to see reviews to see exactly what Apple have done with the keyboard before buying one. It would be nice to know that I’m buying a machine that will not have keyboard issues 6 months from now.

It was not all talk at all, for the past couple of years I have been looking at the MacBook Pro’s, 12” MacBook and the new Air. I was ok to hold out at the time (when I still had my 2011 Pro) since then I’ve been using my 2012 iMac, however it would be great to get a new one know.

EDIT: also I think it would be stupid of me to buy now when WWDC is a week away.

 

[Baymowe335]

You make it sound like it’s not Apples fault. If a lot of people are having issues then Apple should do something to fix it. It’s also the effect it has on peoples perception, now that this has all blown up people may not trust Apple Keyboards anymore.

Also saying take it to Apple and make them fix it isn’t the point. What about the inconvenience to people who rely on their machines? People like myself who are writers, editors and so on, basically people who use their machines daily.

Apple made a mistake, I’m not saying they should be crucified for it. I’m an Apple fan and I still love Apple devices, they just need to fix the issues properly and give people confidence back in the machines.

It is their fault if it’s broken...make them fix it. But it’s not as widespread as the echo chamber here would lead you to believe.

 

[Dave245]

It is their fault if it’s broken...make them fix it. But it’s not as widespread as the echo chamber here would lead you to believe.

Hopefully that is the case. On the plus side there are 4 years of warranty for the keyboard now. I will find out for myself when i order one just after WWDC (waiting just in case that new 16” redesign is announced) and hopefully have no issues (insert fingers crossed emoji)

 

[derekamoss]

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...em-to-improve-reliability-and-thats-not-great

"Overall, the total number of service calls is lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro, versus the older models, even including the keyboard failures."

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...-at-a-faster-rate-than-the-butterfly-keyboard

"Tom Warren of the Verge tweeted that "Apple is trying to fix its broken MacBook keyboard design again," but like most reports taking aim at Apple's butterfly keyboard, there was no effort made to quantify the issue. There isn't data showing the MacBook keyboard is "broken." Instead, it remains a nebulous complaint that is suggested to be an industry-worst failure rate without any real data supporting that."

"AppleInsider has been tracking MacBook keyboard failure rates since 2016, and we've collected real-world data ranging all the way back to the 2012 MacBook Pro with Retina Display. As we reported earlier this year, given about the same number of MacBook Pro sales year-over-year, the total number of service calls were lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro in their first years of service, compared to earlier models, even when including keyboard failures."

"Additionally, we found that keyboard failure percentages for 2016 and 2017 "butterfly" MacBooks specifically were unchanged from the first year and beyond, and there has been no surge of people seeking repairs after Apple launched its keyboard repair program, despite significant media reports concerning problems with the butterfly keyboard and publicizing the repair program."

"Since the 2017 MacBook Pro launched with a revised butterfly design, repair service data is very clear that the keyboards it used were better from a reliability standpoint."

It's great that they say they find less failures in the keyboard. The point is this isnt random failures, such as spilling something on it, It's a known failure caused by how the keyboard is made and that they continue to use the flawed design.

 

[BigMcGuire]

It's great that they say they find less failures in the keyboard. The point is this isnt random failures, such as spilling something on it, It's a known failure caused by how the keyboard is made and that they continue to use the flawed design.

Um... And how do you know that this isn't random failures? So far, the only thing people have done is take guesses as to why they think the failure happened. Even that guy on reddit wasn't completely sure and made some errors in assuming things that he couldn't assume - as you appear to have done.

The point is, Apple Insider has made it very clear, EVEN WITH keyboard repairs, this model is more reliable than past models. Not sure how you can come to the conclusion that this is a flawed design.

You seem to have ignored this quote from the second link: https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...-at-a-faster-rate-than-the-butterfly-keyboard

"Tom Warren of the Verge tweeted that "Apple is trying to fix its broken MacBook keyboard design again," but like most reports taking aim at Apple's butterfly keyboard, there was no effort made to quantify the issue. There isn't data showing the MacBook keyboard is "broken." Instead, it remains a nebulous complaint that is suggested to be an industry-worst failure rate without any real data supporting that."

 

[derekamoss]

Anything from the verge and Apple Insider I take with a grain of salt. They are to afraid to insult Apple and in my view biased. Numerous forums and articles have stated that it is a failure in design mainly because for most people it is the same exact keys failing or producing double letters. Previous keyboards did not have this. Once again it has nothing to do with if it is more reliable than previous, although I would also chalk that up to fewer people have bought the Mac's that include the butterfly keyboard than previous iterations, hence less failures due to less butterfly keyboards in existence. Also has anyone checked the failure rate of butterfly keyboards as compared to the desktop keyboards they sell? I wouldn't be suprised if they have a much less failure rate than the butterfly keyboards.