Apple Argues to Get App Store Injunction Thrown Out in Epic v. Apple Appeal

[Abazigal]

I see final ruling. Does that mean this legal battle finally will come to an end? Though I seriously doubt neither party will satisfy with anything court provided during the appeal.

However, one thing I love is Epic trying to challenge Apple to prove the world Apple is NOT untouchable. Whether Epic win or not, this marathon has already sparked some meaningful disruption attempts to this too big to fail megacorp.

I don’t know how long the appeal process will take. But I’m eager to see the final result.

The problem is that Epic was the wrong company to bring a lawsuit against Apple.

I have stated right from the start that there was no way Epic could win. People don’t exactly hate closed ecosystems, and they don’t care about a 30% cut they will never see. If Epic was hoping for a groundswell of support from the consumers to bolster their case, that never materialised.

Epic was fighting to have their own App Store allowed on iOS, which would have been meaningful for them (they get to keep 100% of IAPs on their own games, plus charge developers a cut for hosting their apps), but there really isn’t anything there which would benefit developers directly. So there really was no reason to actively root for Epic.

All Epic will have accomplished is further strain relationships between Apple and developers, because one Apple wins (and they will), Apple will hold up this victory as proof of its unassailable authority over iOS and have little incentive to make further concessions.

It was a reckless gamble by Epic through and through.

 

[Shirasaki]

Apple will hold up this victory as proof of its unassailable authority over iOS and have little incentive to make further concessions.

 

[Kabeyun]

Did you purposefully leave out the part where said developer purposefully broke their agreement with Apple? Shouldn't the order be:

.5) Developer signs agreement with Apple
1) Developer breaks rules
2) Apple revokes dev acct
3) Dev sues Apple
4) etc.....
5) etc.....

Inserting:
1.25) Apple gives developer chances to follow the rules
1.5) Developer continues to break the rules they agreed to
1.75) Developer launches anti-Apple publicity campaign

 

[svish]

Apple should win the battle. Epic is not right.

 

[KENPHOTO]

That's beside the point, though. Epic was an iOS developer, so they should clearly be able to argue their case.

Imagine an alternate scenario where EvilCorp is engaging in sexual harassment. An employee complains, and EvilCorp fires them. The employee sues. EvilCorp alleges that the former employee has no standing because they no longer work for EvilCorp. Wat?

Your forgetting that in the original judgement, the Judge said Apple has a right to not allow Epic their developer account back due to the original breach that Epic did. Thus, Apple is saying that having a judgement that developers can use an alternative payment system has nothing to do with Epic as Epic is no longer on iOS. Apple correctly pointed out that the epic case was just about Epic, it was in no way a class action, or in anyway represented any other developer accept Epic.

 

[Zest28]

Isn’t that soon to be redundant anyway? With the new EU law and all

Maybe Apple will release an Android phone for the EU only and keep the iPhone for the rest of the world. Seems like an easy solution.

 

[KENPHOTO]

You've literally simplified it down to the basis of every legal disagreement ever. Bravo. This is like saying water is wet.


The case isn't settled when it's being appealed by both parties. What kind of nonsense logic is that?


If the reason Apple and Epic don't do business any more is because of improper rules or actions by Apple, then Epic is being harmed by Apple. Whether or not that's the case will be up to the appeals court.

Nothing in the original ruling said Apple had to let Epic to have their developer account back. In fact the judge specifically stated that Apple was in their right to cancel the Epic developer account. Epic will not win their appeal, they just don't know when to give up. Perhaps they should have spent the money they have spent on this crap on developing their own phone OS.

 

[Zest28]

I’m hoping Apple will win, but the real winners are the frickin lawyers…

And the lawyers aren’t even that good. Do they really think this argument will fly?

 

[KENPHOTO]

If Apple wins, honestly the real winners would be the consumers. People like iOS devices because there is a single App Store and payment system that they can use for all of their purchases. If Epic got their way, it would require Apple to allow third party Application Stores on your devices. It wouldn't just be the Epic Game Store, it would also eventually end up with Blizzard, EA, Steam, maybe Nintendo, maybe Sony, and any other company who decides they want to skip paying Apple commissions to utilize the Apple developer tools on an Apple platform. What makes Apple more secure is their strict requirements on Apps. Whether you agree with their strictness or not, the fact of the matter is that it does help prevent fraud on Apple devices.

Not sure how many people jailbroke their iOS devices, but companies do prevent people from using third party stores likes Cydia on your iOS device. There are many games and applications which do not work on a Jailbroken device. AT&T has done this, games have done this, security software (if you use your phone for work), and more look for non-standard software on your device and disable their app. You may not be able to use your Secure Tokens or any work related stuff on your phone because you have a non-standard store on your phone. I can see this as being a mess and you know companies like Epic are going to require their store to be installed to play their games. Multiple payment systems would also be a big issue as well.

This would be a giant mess and make gaming on iOS like gaming on a Windows PC. This would be a huge loss for the consumer. And this wouldn't just be Apple, you'd see the same thing on the Playstation, Nintendo, Xbox, Android, Atari, and any other gaming system.

o

If Apple wins, it is also a win for small developers. I run a small (ish) app development company had have no issues paying Apple the 15% commission, or even the 30% before we started getting the discount. The fact is we make far more money on iOS with Apple than we do with Android. Every single iPhone user purchased their device knowing that they can only buy apps from Apple. It is really not hard to change to Android if people don't like the walled garden, but in reality, most people like the walled garden. The last thing I want is to have to download some important app like a bank or government app that is only available on some third party app store with none of the privacy protections that Apple mandates for apps through the app store.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

It’s relevant in that Epic has entered into an agreement with game asset creators to take 95% and leave the creator with 5%. If one is saying that it’s right and proper for an entity to enter into an agreement with another entity such that one entity takes 95 and the other takes 5, then it’s right and proper for any other allocation of percentage as well, including 70/30. It doesn’t matter what the agreement entails, just that it exists and the interested parties abide by it. I mean, I could create some arbitrary new rules for doing business where I make up a term called “gatekeeper” define it such that it effectively means ‘any company named Apple’ and then say that gatekeepers are NOT allowed to enter into agreements with other entities in a way that I don’t like… but then I’d be the EU.

and conveniently missing where they do what they preach. and what matters is 1 to 1 what apple does.

Nothing in the original ruling said Apple had to let Epic to have their developer account back. In fact the judge specifically stated that Apple was in their right to cancel the Epic developer account. Epic will not win their appeal, they just don't know when to give up. Perhaps they should have spent the money they have spent on this crap on developing their own phone OS.

EU and other nations are watching the trials and have a very different opinion, and makes policies with this in mind

 

[strongy]

Wrong. It’s my software as well. The unequal copy running on my phone is mine as well. Apple saying it’s theirs doesn’t make it so.

No software is ever yours you only have a license to use it

 

[Samplasion]

No software is ever yours you only have a license to use it

Still wrong. You get a full copy of the software for every purchase of the device. Apple specifying otherwise in the EULA doesn't make it so

 

[ProfessionalFan]

I do care about installing whatever software I choose to on MY iPhone without needing Apple's permission.

iOS and the apps you get don't belong to you so you do actually need their permission to install stuff on it. You may own the hardware (the phone) but the software running on it doesn't belong to you.

If you want to install untrusted software, go get an Android and enjoy that experience.

 

[ProfessionalFan]

Still wrong. You get a full copy of the software for every purchase of the device. Apple specifying otherwise in the EULA doesn't make it so

Actually it does make it so. That's how it works. You agree to those terms and conditions to use the App Store.

 

[Samplasion]

iOS and the apps you get don't belong to you so you do actually need their permission to install stuff on it. You may own the hardware (the phone) but the software running on it doesn't belong to you.

If you want to install untrusted software, go get an Android and enjoy that experience.

iOS as a concept doesn't belong to the user, but the copy installed on their device does, so they shouldn't need what is effectively a stranger's permission to tinker with it

 

[Samplasion]

Actually it does make it so. That's how it works. You agree to those terms and conditions to use the App Store.

I can say whatever in a contract, doesn't make it legally binding. This is such a case.

 

[FreedomPenguin]

Apple would cheerfully squash a mom and pop developer.

I don't care about Epic. I do care about installing whatever software I choose to on MY iPhone without needing Apple's permission.

Couldn’t care less, if apple says no
I’m fine with that. Don’t see the appeal of treating iOS like android

I want a locked down iOS and would rally to keep it locked

 

[ProfessionalFan]

Couldn’t care less, if apple says no
I’m fine with that. Don’t see the appeal of treating iOS like android

I want a locked down iOS and would rally to keep it locked

Exactly. Every time i look at the android way of handling apps, i wonder why anyone would prefer that experience.

 

[7149041]

I'll never pay a cent to an app outside of App Store, even if they are allowed to have their own IAPs. I'll never install an app from outside the App Store either.
Just like I don't pay every game developer separately on my PlayStation, I just pay Sony. Same as I can't get the games anywhere else than Sony.

iOS is not a PC, exactly like a gaming console isn't. And in both cases devs have to kiss 30% goodbye, but somehow Epic decided to take issue just with Apple.

 

[Samplasion]

I'll never pay a cent to an app outside of App Store, even if they are allowed to have their own IAPs. I'll never install an app from outside the App Store either.

You're free to do whatever you want, but I don't get why you would want to limit users who do want to support game developers through means other than the App Store.

Just like I don't pay every game developer separately on my PlayStation, I just pay Sony. Same as I can't get the games anywhere else than Sony.

iOS is not a PC, exactly like a gaming console isn't. And in both cases devs have to kiss 30% goodbye, but somehow Epic decided to take issue just with Apple.

Are you equating gaming consoles to a device that, in this day and age, it's impossible to live without? Between Google and Apple, the latter are the only OS makers who don't allow sideloading.

 

[I7guy]

You're free to do whatever you want, but I don't get why you would want to limit users who do want to support game developers through means other than the App Store.

It’s the decline of the entire ecosystem.

Are you equating gaming consoles to a device that, in this day and age, it's impossible to live without?

I can live without my iPhone. I can’t live without a cell phone. The iPhone is a great device offering a great experience. But as long as I can tether, check Facebook and emails that the bear minimum.

Between Google and Apple, the latter are the only OS makers who don't allow sideloading.

And that is okay.

 

[Samplasion]

It’s the decline of the entire ecosystem.

If that were the case the whole ecosystem would've collapsed before even starting (see: Mac)

I can live without my iPhone. I can’t live without a cell phone. The iPhone is a great device offering a great experience. But as long as I can tether, check Facebook and emails that the bear minimum.

I as talking about phones in general but my point stands.

And that is okay.

That's your opinion.

 

[I7guy]

If that were the case the whole ecosystem would've collapsed before even starting (see: Mac)

Different devices and use cases.

I as talking about phones in general but my point stands.

I don’t believe it does.

That's your opinion.

Of course. I fully acknowledge that this is all opinion based all-around.

 

[Samplasion]

Different devices and use cases.

The ecosystem is the same though.

I don’t believe it does.

Do you not believe phones are essential or do you believe consoles are a necessity?

 

[I7guy]

The ecosystem is the same though.

No the ecosystems are connected but each device can operate independently.

Do you not believe phones are essential or do you believe consoles are a necessity?

One can live without an iPhone. In fact one can live without a cell phone, it’s just more convenient to have one. And an iPhone represents convenience and excellent form and function. But there are other ways to check Facebook and check email.