Apple Argues to Get App Store Injunction Thrown Out in Epic v. Apple Appeal

[Samplasion]

No the ecosystems are connected but each device can operate independently.

Of course, if it were otherwise they wouldn't be different devices in the same ecosystem but two parts of the same device. Besides, Apple goes to great lengths to show the Apple ecosystem encompasses Mac, iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch and iCloud.

One can live without an iPhone. In fact one can live without a cell phone, it’s just more convenient to have one. And an iPhone represents convenience and excellent form and function. But there are other ways to check Facebook and check email.

If the only things you do with a phone are checking Facebook and checking email, you don't really need a phone. But I can assure you in many parts of the world a phone is required in order to get and keep a job, buy/rent a house, etc. And you haven't answered my question

 

[Sophisticatednut]

No software is ever yours you only have a license to use it

This isn’t true. At least in EU. It’s a legal transfer of ownership

iOS and the apps you get don't belong to you so you do actually need their permission to install stuff on it. You may own the hardware (the phone) but the software running on it doesn't belong to you.

If you want to install untrusted software, go get an Android and enjoy that experience.

Completely false. Steam have done this, and even a big airplane company tried this.

The software is the customers.

Actually it does make it so. That's how it works. You agree to those terms and conditions to use the App Store.

Not a single person on the planet agreed to the TOS before purchasing the phone. The EULA aren’t binding and apple are free to prove otherwise in an EU court.

The AppStore falls on the perpetual license part, this turns it into a purchase and you own the application and can sell it if wanted to.

EU laws have extremely strong consumer laws and private property laws

A Steam resale ban on games contradicts European law, French court rules

One of Valve’s key businesses is under threat after a French court ruled its ban on reselling on Steam contradicts European law.

www.siliconrepublic.com

And apple have a weaker case than valve

Antitrust: Commission fines Valve and five publishers of PC video games € 7.8 million for “geo-blocking” practices

The European Commission has fined Valve, owner of the online PC gaming platform “Steam”, and the five publishers Bandai Namco, Capcom, Focus Home, Koch Media and ZeniMax € 7.8 million for breaching EU

ec.europa.eu

 

[I7guy]

Of course, if it were otherwise they wouldn't be different devices in the same ecosystem but two parts of the same device. Besides, Apple goes to great lengths to show the Apple ecosystem encompasses Mac, iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch and iCloud.

Yes. Hence my comments the ecosystems are connected. Devices meant for different computing use cases.

If the only things you do with a phone are checking Facebook and checking email, you don't really need a phone.

There are those who do not have a phone. Some have a low cost device with some solid capability- because a phone is needed or wanted.

But I can assure you in many parts of the world a phone is required in order to get and keep a job, buy/rent a house, etc. And you haven't answered my question

I do not know of any use case where an iPhone is required to live your life. I also know of companies whereby if an employee does not have a cell phone they will get one from the company. However, this is an interconnected world and an iPhone is not required. Usually the lowest common denominator is a web browser.

This conversation has been had ad-nauseum on Macrumors, although I’d be hard pressed to show an example. It usually starts out where the premise supports the conclusion.

 

[ader42]

If I buy a Toyota car that has Toyota software for it’s dash and not CarPlay, but I want to have a CarPlay feature should I be able to ask the court to make Toyota develop and implement a feature that they do not have? The car is the iPhone, Toyota is Apple, the CarPlay feature is SideLoading.

It’s nonsense, the courts have no place telling companies what features they have to develop and implement in their non-essential products - the consumer/market decides if the product is a success or not.

I should have bought a product that had the features I wanted. Nobody has to buy an iPhone when there are a variety of other options and most people do in fact buy another option instead.

 

[mikethemartian]

If I buy a Toyota car that has Toyota software for it’s dash and not CarPlay, but I want to have a CarPlay feature should I be able to ask the court to make Toyota develop and implement a feature that they do not have? The car is the iPhone, Toyota is Apple, the CarPlay feature is SideLoading.

It’s nonsense, the courts have no place telling companies what features they have to develop and implement in their non-essential products - the consumer/market decides if the product is a success or not.

I should have bought a product that had the features I wanted. Nobody has to buy an iPhone when there are a variety of other options and most people do in fact buy another option instead.

Every vehicle I’ve ever owned let you install your own entertainment system.

 

[I7guy]

Every vehicle I’ve ever owned let you install your own entertainment system.

The term “let’s you” is a little loose. Sure in some cases you have take apart the dashboard, figure out and sometimes splice the wiring etc. And if you cause damage to the electrical system, it’s not warrantable. So yeah, “let’s you” is a little loose. (Or you bring the car into a pro shop that will do that for you). No different than jailbreaking the iPhone.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

So there really was no reason to actively root for Epic

Well, there’s always the “I irrationally dislike Apple for some and, thus, I’m for anything that’s against Apple even if it doesn’t logically make sense to be.” and the “Hi. I’m a Troll. What is it you like? Yeah, I’m against that. MOST vociferously!” groups that would root for Epic.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Every vehicle I’ve ever owned let you install your own entertainment system.

Install your own entertainment system software? Easily?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

EU laws have extremely strong consumer laws and private property laws

A Steam resale ban on games contradicts European law, French court rules

One of Valve’s key businesses is under threat after a French court ruled its ban on reselling on Steam contradicts European law.

www.siliconrepublic.com

The “consumer friendly” outcome of this, of course, is that those less affluent EU regions will see prices rise. Way to go EU regulators!

The EU: Where “anti-consumer” is OK as long as they put it in place!

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The “consumer friendly” outcome of this, of course, is that those less affluent EU regions will see prices rise. Way to go EU regulators!

The EU: Where “anti-consumer” is OK as long as they put it in place!

That’s not what steam did. In EU we have:
Euro.
Polish zloty.
Sweden and Greece pay in the Euro store.

And how is allowing to resell your games bad for consumers?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The “consumer friendly” outcome of this, of course, is that those less affluent EU regions will see prices rise. Way to go EU regulators!

The EU: Where “anti-consumer” is OK as long as they put it in place!

And on the second link it’s about frolicking keys. Now steam can’t prevent a Venezuelan game key from working in Sweden irrespective how i bought it.

Steam don’t have geoblocking in EU as everyone pays in Euros or zloty.

It’s a single market. Would you accept games sold in Texas be locked from New York to work??

It’s a single market not 27 markets

 

[Silarkar]

The ecosystem is the same though.


Do you not believe phones are essential or do you believe consoles are a necessity?

The ecosystem experience does degrade. The Mac is not ideal, often requiring users to download apps from multiple sources, and use multiple goddamn launchers and update mechanisms. The problem isn’t that users can get apps from multiple sources, it’s that they are often required to, which sucks and bloats the system. This is what I fear might happen to the rest of Apple’s devices.

If everything would available from every single source, allowing consumers to choose one source, then everything would be great, but that’s sadly not the direction this seems to be going.

 

[Samplasion]

The ecosystem experience does degrade. The Mac is not ideal, often requiring users to download apps from multiple sources, and use multiple goddamn launchers and update mechanisms. The problem isn’t that users can get apps from multiple sources, it’s that they are often required to, which sucks and bloats the system. This is what I fear might happen to the rest of Apple’s devices.

If everything would available from every single source, allowing consumers to choose one source, then everything would be great, but that’s sadly not the direction this seems to be going.

You can use Homebrew (Cask). It's a single source for most programs. I've been using it for 3 or 4 years and my experience with Mac couldn't be better.

The thing is, most people prefer to complain about the possibility to download apps from other sources than find a solution themselves.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The ecosystem experience does degrade. The Mac is not ideal, often requiring users to download apps from multiple sources, and use multiple goddamn launchers and update mechanisms. The problem isn’t that users can get apps from multiple sources, it’s that they are often required to, which sucks and bloats the system. This is what I fear might happen to the rest of Apple’s devices.

If everything would available from every single source, allowing consumers to choose one source, then everything would be great, but that’s sadly not the direction this seems to be going.

Do you know why all games are sold in steam? It’s the superior service.

Do you know why Apple Mac AppStore is abandoned? It’s the worst service provider.

Apple literally just needs to make their store better

 

[7149041]

That's your opinion.

It's OK to have an opinion and a preference. Which means you should be on Android if you don't like how iOS has worked for the past decade and a half.

It's not OK to believe the government should enforce it. Not in this case. If a company builds a device, they should be able to control what software goes and does not go on it. If it is legal for PlayStation, XBOX, Nintendo, Smart TVs etc, it is legal for a smartphone and a tablet. Otherwise you need to enforce it on everyone - make Sony stop blocking Linux on consoles etc.

Are you equating gaming consoles to a device that, in this day and age, it's impossible to live without?

It doesn't matter in the legal or technological perspective. In case of PS, Xbox, Nintendo, iOS, Smart TVs, and many other devices you have the same setup: an end user device, built in software and its own shop / walled garden. Cherry picking and regulating only one is hypocritical.

 

[Samplasion]

It's OK to have an opinion and a preference. Which means you should be on Android.

It doesn't, but okay

It's not OK to believe the government should enforce it.

Believe it or not, this is also your opinion.
Counter-argument: without government intervention, you'd be using internet explorer right now.

Not in this case. If a company builds a device, they should be able to control what software goes and does not go on it. If it is legal for PlayStation, XBOX, Nintendo, Smart TVs etc, it is legal for a smartphone and a tablet.

I want you to ditch your (i)Phone and only use a gaming console or smart tv for a week to make calls and browse the internet. After all, if you're equating them when it's about market control, you should be equating them in scope and functionality as well.

 

[bookofxero]

Theb

yeah. Pretty universal for Apple operations in general. I.E. the fact that after 40 years in business they just recently had retail employees vote to unionize. Says a LOT about the current leadership.

Some people were trying to unionize over a decade ago - it is nothing new.

 

[7149041]

I want you to ditch your (i)Phone and only use a gaming console or smart tv for a week to make calls

Dumphones and Android phones still exist. I do not have to use an iPhone.

 

[bookofxero]

Epic was making money, but not a LOT of money compared to everywhere else. They were likely intending to end development for iOS devices and, since they were going to be pulling their app anyway, decided on this course of action so that they’re ‘removed’ from the store rather than removing it themselves. If the gambit worked, they’d have their own store on iOS, if it didn’t, since they were going to remove it anyway, no loss in potential income.

I will bet you ten cents that that is not the case at all. And if you do not get why I would wager that amount, well...

 

[darcyf]

That's beside the point, though. Epic was an iOS developer, so they should clearly be able to argue their case.

Imagine an alternate scenario where EvilCorp is engaging in sexual harassment. An employee complains, and EvilCorp fires them. The employee sues. EvilCorp claims that the former employee has no standing because they no longer work for EvilCorp. Wat?

Still not getting it. Epic removed themselves from the App Store when they broke the terms of the agreement. Nothing whatsoever like being fired in retaliation for taking justified legal action.

 

[Abazigal]

The ecosystem is the same though.


Do you not believe phones are essential or do you believe consoles are a necessity?

I believe there’s an alternative known as android, which already has all the “openness” people have been clamouring for (together with the drawbacks), so I fail to see how Apple would somehow be exempt from said drawbacks.

 

[urnotl33t]

I find it quite amazing that folks still don’t recognize this, but, then again, it doesn’t come up often as a discussion point, so many never learn (and don’t read EULA’s).

Indeed. I've given up trying to explain "license". And yes. People should read the dang EULA. It's in the name. That's what the "L" and "A" mean. 🤦🏻‍♂️

 

[urnotl33t]

I find it amazing people honestly believe EULA are legal just because it say so. EULA as Americans understand them have zero legal protection in EU and guarantees ownership after purchase. Otherwise it’s called rent.

But you don't and never will own the software. Or the encryption keys. Regardless of what EU says.

 

[bousozoku]

Everyone lost a bit. Time to shake hands and learn a lesson about cooperating to everyone's success.

 

[Samplasion]

Dumphones and Android phones still exist. I do not have to use an iPhone.

I was assuming you have an iPhone. Hence the (i). But it seems like you're purposefully missing the point in my messages