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As much as I hate to agree with LTD, he does have a point. For your average just-computer-literate-enough mom and dad, the iPad is a more than capable replacement for a laptop.

I'll use my mom as an example here. I bought her a laptop about 3 years ago. It was an $800 dealie. Powerful. Well built. Smooth experience. And what does she do with it? She plays around on the internet, checks her email, watches movies, reads books, plays solitaire and Mahjongg. Occasionally, she'll use it to pay bills and check her various bank accounts.

There are probably a few million people out there who use their laptops for these very same reasons. They're about as far from power users as you can get. For them, even a low end laptop is overkill. An iPad, on the other hand, excels at doing all the above stated, and comes in a form factor that's considerably more comfortable to use.

For this particular demographic, the iPad is the first bold step into this Post PC world dealie everyone keeps yakking about. It's a perfect fit for their needs. Comfortable. Simple. Lets you check out the internet and play Mahjongg.

For many, a bike could replace a car; Public transportation, single commutes; and X a Y. However, a bike is not a car; Public transport is not single commuting, and X is indeed not Y. The logic is inherently flawed.

Something (x) replacing something else (y) is not testiment of x being y, but x holding a certain set of (desireable) qualities found in y, that make the two "changeable". If y is not confined to the set of qualities shared with x, then y is not x and vice versa.

Evidently, in popular view x is non-y. That could change with time, but we are not there yet. Until then mere replacement of y with x changes very little.

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But if they included the iPhone and all Apple's iOS devices then Apple would be number one by far, so I don't get your point.

Until we include all cell phones, and then.... i dont know, Nokia wins or something. Who gives a rats carp?
 
Until we include all like +5 bn cell phones, and then.... i dont know, Nokia wins or something. Who gives a rats carp?

A bit different as Nokia doesn't have a coherent platform there with all of those phones, but that was exactly my point. I don't understand what he thought including Android phones (and by extension Apple's iOS devices) would have done as it would have pushed Apple to the very top, something he obviously doesn't want.
 
A bit different as Nokia doesn't have a coherent platform there with all of those phones, but that was exactly my point. I don't understand what he thought including Android phones (and by extension Apple's iOS devices) would have done as it would have pushed Apple to the very top, something he obviously doesn't want.

Uhm, whats incoherent about Symbian? Isnt that what Nokia has been sporting for large part of their business in the last decade?).

As for the rest, he commented on the inclusion of phones, no more no less (right?). Granted, it would be quite hard to argue for the exclusion of say, ipods, if one includes, say, iphones, but thats a different story. in short, while you are being right your placing burden on him that he is not responsible to carry.

Addendum: Sorry, tired. Missed the "all" part. Still, Symbian should still sell enough to dethrone one or two people, at least globally. Thankfully, though, we dont view it like that.
 
You don't surf the web, do e-mail and watch movies on a calculator. Let's not get into absurdities.

1) Tablets come closest to the average consumer's expectations of a traditional computer, and 2) there is also evidence that they (not smartphones) have not only killed netbooks, but in some cases *can* replace PCs, according to consumer trending.

Apparently, this is enough for the industry and reporting companies to start raising questions, including them in PC numbers, and do forecasting.

Quite frankly, I can see their point.
Rating them as PC does not make it right. It still is head line grabbing. If they though they could get more grabs by saying Apple dropped they would.

Windows 8 tablet I could give much more chance to taking truly away and bieng counted as a computer as guess what it could in theory allow for a replacement of a PC. The OS allows for it. iOS is so limited and sandbox is rather kills it. You have very VERY limited file support on iOS and can not import more support.

Windows 8 on a tablet will allow for it. Big time when running x86 version of the code.

Tell me can your iPhone or iPad run Xvid. Oh wait nope not supported. It is supported on everything else.

Counting the iPad as a computer discredits the entire report. Netbooks was a stretch and iPad as a computer is a very long and huge stretch to even compare them head to head with netbooks.

Is the PC market shink in the past year yes. But just because the market shank does not mean you lump iPads as computer. Sorry but the iPad is nothing more than a big iPod touch.
 
Rating them as PC does not make it right.

Counting the iPad as a computer discredits the entire report. Netbooks was a stretch and iPad as a computer is a very long and huge stretch to even compare them head to head with netbooks.

Is the PC market shink in the past year yes. But just because the market shank does not mean you lump iPads as computer. Sorry but the iPad is nothing more than a big iPod touch.


Reality happens irrespective of your opinion.

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Tell me can your iPhone or iPad run Xvid. Oh wait nope not supported. It is supported on everything else.

There's an App for that.™
 
We all know if they included phones Android would be number 1.

You like HTC stuff? If you're going to go for Android (which kinda sucks), at least go Motorola/Google!

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you don't sell pc's anymore! You don't!

Why are the cases all messed up in the quote?

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You don't sell PC's anymore! You don't!

EDIT: Really, it took away all my caps. :(

Ah that sucks. At least this isn't one of those stupid forums that disallow line breaks or too much punctuation.
 
Reality happens irrespective of your opinion.[

yeah but reality is not from your Apple Reality Distortion field.
You pull stuff from the field. You need to come back to reality.
Sorry if you want your big iPod touch to be a computer. It is not.

Also you site places that are going for head line grabbing. iPad is not a PC no matter how you cut it. You say it is one or finding craptastic does not make it fact.


[/COLOR]

There's an App for that.™

I am going to say prove it. Find me an app in the App store that plays Xvid. I could be even meaner and say make sure it is free because that is what the codexes are. But find me an app that can play Xvid and Divx codex.

Far as I can tell in all my google searching there is nothing out there. Instead you have to do a massive work around to re encode everything.
 
yeah but reality is not from your Apple Reality Distortion field.
You pull stuff from the field. You need to come back to reality.
Sorry if you want your big iPod touch to be a computer. It is not.

It's not me, it's Canalys, DisplaySearch, and probably soon to be others.

And consumers at large are driving the trend, not just little old Yours Truly.

It isn't what I want, it's just what's happening.

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I am going to say prove it. Find me an app in the App store that plays Xvid. I could be even meaner and say make sure it is free because that is what the codexes are. But find me an app that can play Xvid and Divx codex.

Far as I can tell in all my google searching there is nothing out there. Instead you have to do a massive work around to re encode everything.

http://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/id384098375?mt=8

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/avplayerhd/id407976815?mt=8

Took all of like, 10 seconds.
 
For many, a bike could replace a car; Public transportation, single commutes; and X a Y. However, a bike is not a car; Public transport is not single commuting, and X is indeed not Y. The logic is inherently flawed.

Something (x) replacing something else (y) is not testiment of x being y, but x holding a certain set of (desireable) qualities found in y, that make the two "changeable". If y is not confined to the set of qualities shared with x, then y is not x and vice versa.

Evidently, in popular view x is non-y. That could change with time, but we are not there yet. Until then mere replacement of y with x changes very little.



I'd say the iPad vs. PC situation would be like comparing a small economy car to a 4 wheel drive extended bed truck with a tuned up Hemi, all sporting a lift kit, a roll cage, and a tow package (holy crap at the car analogies). Both of them do the same thing when you break them down their most basic. They're there get you from point A to point B. Thing is, not everyone needs to spend all that money on a tweaked out truck when all they need is a car to get them to the grocery store.

...and much like a truck, a car is a vehicle. It isn't as all purpose, but that doesn't make it any less of a vehicle. An iPad is a computer as much as a PC is. It might be simplified, and not have nearly as much power and flexibility, but it's still a computer.

So should it be lumped in with general computer sales? Begrudgingly, I'll say yeah. But as a subcategory, much like netbooks are to laptops are to desktops. People shouldn't use it as an IPAD WINS FOREVER PC DOOMED bragging point, simply because it's not meant as a catch all replacement for the PC. It could sell a billion tomorrow, and you'd still have a thriving high end PC market.

The Post PC world only exists for a certain core group of people who never really needed a PC to begin with. LTD and co. need to realize this.
 
Asus is rocking it ... I'm wondering why is that considering Asus hasn't seen those increases in other markets?

I've always considered ASUS the dark horse. In tech circles, they're well regarded.. they make great components and are innovative in componentry and hardware (like the Transformer).
To me, if that spark can ignite in the public conscious, I see ASUS becoming a massive player in the tech space.. bigger than they are now.

My next laptop will be either a 15" Ultrabooks by Asus, if they ever make one, or the U300s by Lenovo.
 
HP isn't a PC vendor. Is this just going by market share?

EDIT: Oh they announced that they would stop selling PCs right? They still sell them.
 

want to increase that to free? still does not change the fact that it lagged way behind the rest of the world as those have been out for what little more than a year.


Also I think someone else nailed the iPad comparing to computer.

iPad is like a bike is to a car.

People commute by bike and in some areas are replacing their car with their bike and using pedal power. But that does not mean bikes should be lumped into sells with cars. They are two very different markets.

Car sells can go down and bike sells can go up but does not change the fact that bikes do not belong lumped in with Cars.
iOS and the iPad still has a long ways to go before it can hope to replace PCs. End of story they do not belong lump in with the sales. They are a different market completely. Yes it can and does effect PC sells but does not mean that it should be lumped. It seems to be Apple fan boys scream for it and places that want head lines so companies buy a more detailed break down of the data but in doing so they are discrediting themselves as a valid source for making so crappy correlation.


HP isn't a PC vendor. Is this just going by market share?

yes they are. They never spun it off. They announced it. Fired the CEO and the new one cancelled the plans.
 
yes they are. They never spun it off. They announced it. Fired the CEO and the new one cancelled the plans.

Man, I'm behind on this. I was wondering why such a successful PC seller would just stop selling PCs. Too bad, now we have to deal with them :(
Windows-running computers are bad in general, but HP is the WORST.
 
And exactly why is an iPhone not a personal computer? It has a much faster general purpose CPU, more memory, more storage, more display pixels, faster connectivity, etc. than an IBM PC/AT or Mac Plus or C64 or hundreds of other models of popular personal computers (the C64 was possibly the best selling single personal computer model ever).

An iPhone probably now has more apps available for it than one could find for a Mac Plus as well. What did your grandpa call a Mac Plus or IBM PC/AT. Toasters?

What do you call that thing with a wire, handset and a rotary dial? A telephone. Same as your grandpa. It didn't suddenly become a frog just because you now use some new fangled iPhone/Android thing to make phone calls. It's still a phone.

And an iPhone is a computer pretending to be a phone. And vice-versa.

"All of this tells us that the iPhone 4's A4 SoC has a 64-bit wide LPDDR1 memory interface with a 400MHz data rate. Multiply all of that out and you get peak theoretical bandwidth of 3.2GB/s. DDR memory interfaces are generally 80% efficient at best so you're looking at a limit of around 2.5GB/s. To put this in perspective, the A4 has as much memory bandwidth as the original AMD Athlon 64 released in 2003"

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4971/apple-iphone-4s-review-att-verizon/5
 
yeah but reality is not from your Apple Reality Distortion field.
You pull stuff from the field. You need to come back to reality.
Sorry if you want your big iPod touch to be a computer. It is not.

Also you site places that are going for head line grabbing. iPad is not a PC no matter how you cut it. You say it is one or finding craptastic does not make it fact.




I am going to say prove it. Find me an app in the App store that plays Xvid. I could be even meaner and say make sure it is free because that is what the codexes are. But find me an app that can play Xvid and Divx codex.

Far as I can tell in all my google searching there is nothing out there. Instead you have to do a massive work around to re encode everything.
Don't joke

AVPlayerHD can do that, for instance. Among few others.
 
"All of this tells us that the iPhone 4's A4 SoC has a 64-bit wide LPDDR1 memory interface with a 400MHz data rate. Multiply all of that out and you get peak theoretical bandwidth of 3.2GB/s. DDR memory interfaces are generally 80% efficient at best so you're looking at a limit of around 2.5GB/s. To put this in perspective, the A4 has as much memory bandwidth as the original AMD Athlon 64 released in 2003"

My favorite comparison is floating point matrix math, since I've developed some math apps for my iPhone. A Cray-1 (as in the canonical supercomputer photo) could do a bit over 100 linpack mflops sustained (weighed 7 tons and required around 150 kW of cooling to keep it from melting). An iPhone 4s is significantly faster... and with no cooling tower required. Light enough to carry even.
 
I'd say the iPad vs. PC situation would be like comparing a small economy car to a 4 wheel drive extended bed truck with a tuned up Hemi, all sporting a lift kit, a roll cage, and a tow package (holy crap at the car analogies). Both of them do the same thing when you break them down their most basic. They're there get you from point A to point B. Thing is, not everyone needs to spend all that money on a tweaked out truck when all they need is a car to get them to the grocery store.

...and much like a truck, a car is a vehicle. It isn't as all purpose, but that doesn't make it any less of a vehicle. An iPad is a computer as much as a PC is. It might be simplified, and not have nearly as much power and flexibility, but it's still a computer.

So should it be lumped in with general computer sales? Begrudgingly, I'll say yeah. But as a subcategory, much like netbooks are to laptops are to desktops. People shouldn't use it as an IPAD WINS FOREVER PC DOOMED bragging point, simply because it's not meant as a catch all replacement for the PC. It could sell a billion tomorrow, and you'd still have a thriving high end PC market.

The Post PC world only exists for a certain core group of people who never really needed a PC to begin with. LTD and co. need to realize this.

Way to miss the point, but i guess i only have my self to blame by trying to illustrate the argument. X replacing Y does not equal X being Y; A town car is not a 4 wheel-drive all terrain vehicle either. Do they share a set of qualities? Yes... so does icecream and frozen peas. X replacing Y does not equal X being Y.

A bike is there to get you from point A to point B. Is a bike a car? If not, what is your point? that not everyone need a car? a big car? while true, its irrelevant. that everyone doesnt need a big car doesnt make a small car (or a bike) into what it is not. thats bogus reasoning.

In fact, your last line sums it up pretty nicely. In claiming that they dont need a pc we have already defined "the thing they need" as non-pc. Theres no wait out. Either post-pc is, or it isnt.

p.s. ...and yeah, of course it is a computer. a calculator is a computer too. so is a car, really. and, pretty soon, everything around you. i still wont refer to my wall as a PC.

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Man, I'm behind on this. I was wondering why such a successful PC seller would just stop selling PCs. Too bad, now we have to deal with them :(
Windows-running computers are bad in general, but HP is the WORST.

They were never going to stop. Organizational restructuration. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
HP isn't a PC vendor. Is this just going by market share?

EDIT: Oh they announced that they would stop selling PCs right? They still sell them.

Why don't you Google it instead of repeating the same question over and over again ?

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p.s. ...and yeah, of course it is a computer. a calculator is a computer too. so is a car, really. and, pretty soon, everything around you. i still wont refer to my wall as a PC.

A car is not a computer. The car's Engine Control Unit is a computer. The car's navigation system is a computer, but the car itself is a car, not a computer.

A computer is an electronic device that takes input, processes according to a defined set of instructions, does output and provides storage. If your device does this, it is a computer.

Computer is a very broad and generic term. Saying an iPad isn't a computer is wrong. However, here we're discussing laptops/desktop systems. Not tablets and smartphones. We're discussing a very precise subset of the computer industry. Are we going to throw in microcontrollers, networking equipment, industrial control systems, servers and other computers into the mix just because they are all "computers" ? No, so we aren't going to include tablets or smartphones either.
 
Why don't you Google it instead of repeating the same question over and over again ?

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A car is not a computer. The car's Engine Control Unit is a computer. The car's navigation system is a computer, but the car itself is a car, not a computer.

A computer is an electronic device that takes input, processes according to a defined set of instructions, does output and provides storage. If your device does this, it is a computer.

Computer is a very broad and generic term. Saying an iPad isn't a computer is wrong. However, here we're discussing laptops/desktop systems. Not tablets and smartphones. We're discussing a very precise subset of the computer industry. Are we going to throw in microcontrollers, networking equipment, industrial control systems, servers and other computers into the mix just because they are all "computers" ? No, so we aren't going to include tablets or smartphones either.

With some of the threads in macrumors you could put it through a speech synthesizer and sell it as techno.
 
Way to miss the point, but i guess i only have my self to blame by trying to illustrate the argument. X replacing Y does not equal X being Y; A town car is not a 4 wheel-drive all terrain vehicle either. Do they share a set of qualities? Yes... so does icecream and frozen peas. X replacing Y does not equal X being Y.

A bike is there to get you from point A to point B. Is a bike a car? If not, what is your point? that not everyone need a car? a big car? while true, its irrelevant. that everyone doesnt need a big car doesnt make a small car (or a bike) into what it is not. thats bogus reasoning.

In fact, your last line sums it up pretty nicely. In claiming that they dont need a pc we have already defined "the thing they need" as non-pc. Theres no wait out. Either post-pc is, or it isnt.

p.s. ...and yeah, of course it is a computer. a calculator is a computer too. so is a car, really. and, pretty soon, everything around you. i still wont refer to my wall as a PC.

Nope. Not missing the point. We're just splitting hairs to the point where things have gotten crazy as hell.

Here's the way I see it. A tablet has far, far more in common with a PC than, say, a bike to a car, or networking equipment to a toaster. I consider high end tablets to be in the same category as netbooks. They're little PCs. One you use a mini mouse or trackpad with, the other you jab your finger at. At the end of the day, you're still doing about the same stuff you'd do on a netbook with it. Just because you can't run CAD on an iPad or Galaxy Tab doesn't make them not-PCs. Only simpler, more focused ones. Like Netbooks.

I think that tablets should be lumped in with the lower end laptops, simply because they're basically the same thing in a different form factor, and have the potential to eat away at that submarket. A rose with a touch based interface is still a rose.

So a bike is a bike like a rose by any other name, but a car is not a truck, and a PC is a computer much like an industrial control system, which isn't a computer in the same way as a PC and...CRAP! ANALOGIES CRAMMING MY BRAIN HOLES UP!

With some of the threads in macrumors you could put it through a speech synthesizer and sell it as techno.

I'm on it.
 
A calculator is a computer. [...]what we refer to as "computers" is merely a small sub-set of "computing devices".

Most calculators are not computers since they are are not "general purpose" enough. I would argue exactly the opposite of what you propose: computers = computing devices.

The problem is that most people think that computers = PC = personal computers. All PCs are computers but not all computers are PCs. All PCs are personal computers but not all personal computers are PCs.

A computer is a simple device and do not require a screen, a keyboard, a mouse, RAM, ports or a lot of other things.
 
Nope. Not missing the point. We're just splitting hairs to the point where things have gotten crazy as hell.

Here's the way I see it. A tablet has far, far more in common with a PC than, say, a bike to a car, or networking equipment to a toaster. I consider high end tablets to be in the same category as netbooks. They're little PCs. One you use a mini mouse or trackpad with, the other you jab your finger at. At the end of the day, you're still doing about the same stuff you'd do on a netbook with it. Just because you can't run CAD on an iPad or Galaxy Tab doesn't make them not-PCs. Only simpler, more focused ones. Like Netbooks.

I think that tablets should be lumped in with the lower end laptops, simply because they're basically the same thing in a different form factor, and have the potential to eat away at that submarket. A rose with a touch based interface is still a rose.

So a bike is a bike like a rose by any other name, but a car is not a truck, and a PC is a computer much like an industrial control system, which isn't a computer in the same way as a PC and...CRAP! ANALOGIES CRAMMING MY BRAIN HOLES UP!



I'm on it.

It could have everything but one in common, and still not be the same. Until words change enough, iPad remains the pc that is not. (Is it a personal computer? of course).

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Why don't you Google it instead of repeating the same question over and over again ?

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A car is not a computer. The car's Engine Control Unit is a computer. The car's navigation system is a computer, but the car itself is a car, not a computer.

A computer is an electronic device that takes input, processes according to a defined set of instructions, does output and provides storage. If your device does this, it is a computer.

Computer is a very broad and generic term. Saying an iPad isn't a computer is wrong. However, here we're discussing laptops/desktop systems. Not tablets and smartphones. We're discussing a very precise subset of the computer industry. Are we going to throw in microcontrollers, networking equipment, industrial control systems, servers and other computers into the mix just because they are all "computers" ? No, so we aren't going to include tablets or smartphones either.

And, embedded in a (modern) car is an electronic device that takes input, process according to a defined set of instructions, does output and provides storage. My car does this, hence - according to your definition - it is a computer.

That said, the car example was mainly put there to show the blurring of lines that happens as physical material is given digital qualities (digital materiality). I did not seek to imply that the "car", as commonly conceptualized, is a "computer".



(I dont own a car, but if i did...)

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Most calculators are not computers since they are are not "general purpose" enough. I would argue exactly the opposite of what you propose: computers = computing devices.

The problem is that most people think that computers = PC = personal computers. All PCs are computers but not all computers are PCs. All PCs are personal computers but not all personal computers are PCs.

A computer is a simple device and do not require a screen, a keyboard, a mouse, RAM, ports or a lot of other things.

...I said, "what we refer to as 'computer'" - not computer, though. In short, if what we refer to as computer (C) is {A, B, E} then (C) is a subset of Computing devices (CD) {A, B, E, G, H, Y..}

--- Not because G, H & Y arent computers - but because we do not perceive them as such. That was my point.


p.s.

why need a computer be general purpose? if i put an ipad into kiosk mode browsing for all eternity, does it cease to be a computer? After all, its effectively turned into a single purpose device...

(if you meant programmability, then sure... i would be inclined to agree... wouldnt think of a programmable calculator as a computer though :- D).
 
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