Apple Becomes Top Five PC Vendor in Western Europe

[*LTD*]

You did not answer your question. You just pointed to well standard BS and bad data.

Eventually that "standard BS and bad data" will become the norm. I'm not judging it one way or the other, but simply pointing out that times are changing.

That doesn't mean you have to like it, but at some point you might have to accept it, irrespective of how much it infuriates you to see analysts and the industry beginning to lump in the iPad with PCs.

 

[BaldiMac]

It's possible he was referring to "stand alone" - as in out-of-box experience.

I'm not sure how that would make any more sense. Is a Mac Pro not a PC? Does a 10" screen actually disqualify a computer from being a PC?

 

[7o7munoz7o7]

Sure you can. You just don't want to. 10" screen alone disqualifies iPad as a PC. And there are other things like the lack of file system, missing any facilities for development/execution of applications by users.

Couple things I dont agree with here....what about netbooks...they have 10" screens...iPad can do video out with an HDMI cable or wireless through AirPlay. I currently have a 60" iPad sitting in my living room...the 10" screen works really well for doing almost anything needed, pinch to zoom works really good and it great for editing photos. You can also create applications directly from the iPad it self....

 

[FakeWozniak]

Apple vs Dell

Apple is close to Dell in market share just on the PC business. This is just PC shipments, no phones, no tablets, not other stuff. If I were on the Board of Directors of Dell, I would shut the company down, liquidate it, and give the share holders their money back.

 

[samcraig]

I'm not sure how that would make any more sense. Is a Mac Pro not a PC? Does a 10" screen actually disqualify a computer from being a PC?

Two things...

First - I have no idea - I think you would have to ask whoever was defining it in the first place.

Second - Definitions are silly anyway as they (in this case) are completely subjective.

In my opinion - the iPad can replace many aspects of a full computer for many people. But for me - it comes up very short as a real computer based on my own use case.

The bigger problem (perhaps) is the need to define these things in the first place. Oh I understand why - for marketing, sales figures, etc. But the reality is - they are all computing devices - just in different form factors and features.

 

[divinox]

Couple things I dont agree with here....what about netbooks...they have 10" screens...iPad can do video out with an HDMI cable or wireless through AirPlay. I currently have a 60" iPad sitting in my living room...the 10" screen works really well for doing almost anything needed, pinch to zoom works really good and it great for editing photos. You can also create applications directly from the iPad it self....

Have fun making the next killer app on your ipad.

 

[BaldiMac]

Two things...

First - I have no idea - I think you would have to ask whoever was defining it in the first place.

Then why did you defend what he said?

Second - Definitions are silly anyway as they (in this case) are completely subjective.

The fact that you think that definitions are subjective could be why we disagree so much.

In my opinion - the iPad can replace many aspects of a full computer for many people. But for me - it comes up very short as a real computer based on my own use case.

Completely reasonable.

The bigger problem (perhaps) is the need to define these things in the first place. Oh I understand why - for marketing, sales figures, etc. But the reality is - they are all computing devices - just in different form factors and features.

Same reason that you decided to read this thread.

 

[gnasher729]

Can we have some source for this?

It's one thing that Steve Jobs learned from John Sculley. Don't let your opponents know how successful you are. That's how Sculley at PepsiCo managed to beat Coca Cola: Coca Cola counted sales in bottles. PepsiCo counted sales in litres. By moving sales to bigger bottles they managed to take the lead away without Coca Cola noticing it, and therefore without Coca Cola putting up a serious fight.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Eventually that "standard BS and bad data" will become the norm. I'm not judging it one way or the other, but simply pointing out that times are changing.

That doesn't mean you have to like it, but at some point you might have to accept it, irrespective of how much it infuriates you to see analysts and the industry beginning to lump in the iPad with PCs.

When people are dumping pc to go ipad only then yes it is acceptable but until then it is just crap data.
And as I pointed out before you have yet to answer the question.

 

[BaldiMac]

When people are dumping pc to go ipad only then yes it is acceptable but until then it is just crap data.
And as I pointed out before you have yet to answer the question.

So, only primary computers count?

(And people are dumping PCs to go iPad only. I know two.)

 

[firewood]

Unless you can show us a statistically relevant number of users that could fully replace their desktop or notebook with an iPad, you have to admit that the other poster was right with what he said.

Most users couldn't replace their desktop or notebook with a IBM 360, VAX 11/780, Cray 1, Apple II or any of a huge number of famous computers, either. That doesn't make them not computers. Just slower computers than an iPad.

 

[paul4339]

Unless you can show us a statistically relevant number of users that could fully replace their desktop or notebook with an iPad, you have to admit that the other poster was right with what he said. Until then, iOS devices are in the same league as gaming consoles, pocket calculators, toasters and mp3 players -- all of them are nice and useful gadgets, but none of them can replace a "real" computer.

I guess it depends what one uses the information for, but i would generally disagree more that agree. Mainly because:

1) they compete for the same consumer dollars.
2) a sub-notebook is not a full functional replacement for a desktop, nor is a tablet a replacement for a laptop. Yet, they group the subnotes with laptop, and laptops with the desktops. They are bought and used different reasons. Tablets are filling a gap that was poorly filled by sub-notebooks and add new functions that can be filled with the other devices.

.

 

[samcraig]

Then why did you defend what he said?



The fact that you think that definitions are subjective could be why we disagree so much.



Completely reasonable.



Same reason that you decided to read this thread.

I didn't "defend" - I think we disagree often is because you like to associate emotions or actions which have nothing to do with my posts. I merely posted a hypothesis on what could or could not be his definition. I have no idea what his definition specifically - so how could I defend it.

 

[MacNewsFix]

Sure you can. You just don't want to. 10" screen alone disqualifies iPad as a PC. And there are other things like the lack of file system, missing any facilities for development/execution of applications by users.

I didn't know the PC had a screen size requirement. Don't tell Toshiba or Samsung. They use terms like "computer" and "PC" to describe their 10" laptop, er, such-and-such in their marketing material.

And there are other things like the lack of file system, missing any facilities for development/execution of applications by users.

Wouldn't there have to be a file system so as to allow delivery of iCloud shared documents or documents synced via iTunes, or do you mean "lack of file system" in the traditional sense we've become acustomed since adopting a GUI? There obviously must be a file system, as I have several apps on my iPhone for accessing stored music files besides the default Music app.

I'm guessing you're like me in that you spend a good deal of time with computers. We take for granted that many people do not or, at the very least, struggle with them.

It is interesting that so many in the forums seem hellbent on considering anything that doesn't meet minute criteria should not be considered a computer. I'm old enough to remember when people used to argue that the GUI wasn't a true computer experience due to the lack of power when compared to working in DOS or within terminal on a *NIX machine. They saw the command line as what constitutes a computer and the proliferation of a computer with a GUI as an affront to everyone and "too simple." The author/blogger Corey Doctorow believes a computer needs to have a user-replaceable battery.

If the computer is going to come to the masses, it needs to evolve. The masses shouldn't need to evolve to come to the computer.

 

[BaldiMac]

I didn't "defend" <snip>. I merely posted a hypothesis on what could or could not be his definition. I have no idea what his definition specifically - so how could I defend it.

Since you want to read into the word "defend", I'll restate. What was the point of your hypothesis? It did not appear to clarify his claim or make sense on its own.

No animosity. Simple question to clarify your post.

 

[noisycats]

Unless you can show us a statistically relevant number of users that could fully replace their desktop or notebook with an iPad, you have to admit that the other poster was right with what he said. Until then, iOS devices are in the same league as gaming consoles, pocket calculators, toasters and mp3 players -- all of them are nice and useful gadgets, but none of them can replace a "real" computer.

...and pray tell, what is a "real" computer?

 

[samcraig]

Most users couldn't replace their desktop or notebook with a IBM 360, VAX 11/780, Cray 1, Apple II or any of a huge number of famous computers, either. That doesn't make them not computers. Just slower computers than an iPad.

Not the same thing and pretty much a straw man argument or at least a very poor analogy. Those computers won't work for people wanting to be productive because of the lack of software support for applications people want to use on them - not because of speed.

Try using the latest Microsoft Office on any of those. Exactly.

Further - I think (not speaking for them) the people arguing that the iPad is not a full computer are arguing the same reasoning. That many applications which are "required" to be productive are not fully capable on the iPad. That's not to say you can't create content. But right now - and the software available - it's not a 1:1 substitution.

 

[firewood]

iOS is not a self-hosting operating system, it's as much a computer as my wifi router.

I had an old wifi router that ran linux. I could ssh in, compile, and run some of the same C programs that I used to run on a VAX minicomputer. What's non-computer-y about that?

And iOS on an iPad is far more capable than the linux on that router.

 

[lilo777]

I didn't know the PC had a screen size requirement. Don't tell Toshiba or Samsung. They use terms like "computer" and "PC" to describe their 10" laptop, er, such-and-such in their marketing material.



Wouldn't there have to be a file system so as to allow delivery of iCloud shared documents or documents synced via iTunes, or do you mean "lack of file system" in the traditional sense we've become acustomed since adopting a GUI? There obviously must be a file system, as I have several apps on my iPhone for accessing stored music files besides the default Music app.

I'm guessing you're like me in that you spend a good deal of time with computers. We take for granted that many people do not or, at the very least, struggle with them.

It is interesting that so many in the forums seem hellbent on considering anything that doesn't meet minute criteria should not be considered a computer. I'm old enough to remember when people used to argue that the GUI wasn't a true computer experience due to the lack of power when compared to working in DOS or within terminal on a *NIX machine. They saw the command line as what constitutes a computer and the proliferation of a computer with a GUI as an affront to everyone and "too simple." The author/blogger Corey Doctorow believes a computer needs to have a user-replaceable battery.

If the computer is going to come to the masses, it needs to evolve. The masses shouldn't need to evolve to come to the computer.

I do not necessarily disagree with you. Still, netbooks do have a full featured OS and the anecdotal evidence indicate that they are used as a laptop replacement more often than the tablets.

As far as iPad is concerned. Sure, technically it is a computer as is an iPhone. But it's not what we generally call a "PC". The two items have very different usage models with probably the only major overlap being web browsing.

 

[noisycats]

Not the same thing and pretty much a straw man argument or at least a very poor analogy. Those computers won't work for people wanting to be productive because of the lack of software support for applications people want to use on them - not because of speed.

Try using the latest Microsoft Office on any of those. Exactly.

Further - I think (not speaking for them) the people arguing that the iPad is not a full computer are arguing the same reasoning. That many applications which are "required" to be productive are not fully capable on the iPad. That's not to say you can't create content. But right now - and the software available - it's not a 1:1 substitution.

Why is the arguement so "either / or "? Why can't they both be "real" computers, but for different purposes and even more importantly, different users? Why is 1:1 substiturion important or even part of the equation?

People are starting to replace their laptop/desktop for the iPad. Two in my family alone. Statistically relevant, no. But interesting if this is occuring in households across the globe. Not eveyone wants to code, or fold, or CAD, or genome or whatever the hell else geeks do on computers, the vast majority just want to be able to perform a finite number of tasks.

Seriously, where is the line between 'gadget' and 'computer'?

 

[samcraig]

Why is the arguement so "either / or "? Why can't they both be "real" computers, but for different purposes and even more importantly, different users? Why is 1:1 substiturion important or even part of the equation?

People are starting to replace their laptop/desktop for the iPad. Two in my family alone. Statistically relevant, no. But interesting if this is occuring in households across the globe. Not eveyone wants to code, or fold, or CAD, or genome or whatever the hell else geeks do on computers, the vast majority just want to be able to perform a finite number of tasks.

Seriously, where is the line between 'gadget' and 'computer'?

I don't disagree. Again - as I said in a previous post - it's only for sales and marketing (and these boards) it seems. At the end of the day - they are all computing devices. And whatever works for an individual is all that matters. Not what it's called. I had a cousin (no longer alive) who after his stroke used a speak-n-spell to communicate. It was every bit a computer for his use case than what can be used today. Maybe not the best analogy - but my point is - it was a computing device.

 

[firewood]

Those computers won't work for people wanting to be productive because of the lack of software support for applications people want to use on them - not because of speed.

You just admitted that those old computers (IBM 360, VAX, Apple II) are actually computers.

You also just admitted that a useful computer requires the applications that the customer wants to use. For an airline reservation system, that might be an IBM Z series mainframe. For big databases, that might be an Oracle/Solaris minicomputer. For Quicken'11, that might be a PC. For Xcode, that might be a Mac. For millions of people who only need a few apps (email, web, casual games) that might be an iPad. For millions of businesses that only need a remote desktop or browser for the enterprise web app, same thing.

And the market for the latter is growing faster than the market for the former, so it's only a matter of time until that kind of computer becomes the dominant computer in view of the general public.

The full-height desktop tower, running an OS too vulnerable to uneducated users to mess up, will go the same way as the room size computer in a special room with a raised floor. To being museum pieces.

 

[samcraig]

You just admitted that those old computers (IBM 360, VAX, Apple II) are actually computers.

You also just admitted that a useful computer requires the applications that the customer wants to use. For an airline reservation system, that might be an IBM Z series mainframe. For big databases, that might be an Oracle/Solaris minicomputer. For Quicken'11, that might be a PC. For Xcode, that might be a Mac. For millions of people who only need a few apps (email, web, casual games) that might be an iPad. For millions of businesses that only need a remote desktop or browser for the enterprise web app, same thing.

And the market for the latter is growing faster than the market for the former, so it's only a matter of time until that kind of computer becomes the dominant computer in view of the general public.

The full-height desktop tower, running an OS too vulnerable to uneducated users to mess up, will go the same way as the room size computer in a special room with a raised floor. To being museum pieces.

I think you're a tad defensive. My point was that your analogy was poor. And in my opinion, it was. Because you were talking about using the older legacy systems "today" - and for most people that doesn't work. Not because of speed. But because they (home user) can't run what they want to.

You're splitting hairs and reaching (again in my opinion) as your follow up post immediately implied that your router could be considered a computer. Really? Do you really want to call your router a computer? If so - go right ahead. But I think you might get some crazy looks...

 

[*LTD*]

When people are dumping pc to go ipad only then yes it is acceptable but until then it is just crap data

No. It's a taste of things to come.

Watch the trends. That's all you need to do. So many signs we see today foretell the future.

The problem is that you're passing judgment on what shape reality is taking. You don't like it. This creates denial.

Denial denial denial. Until it actually happens. Will you then get angry with the people who told you about it before it happened?

In any case, what was the question you want an answer for that has your Autobot circuits in such a tangle?

 

[Rodimus Prime]

No. It's a taste of things to come.

Watch the trends. That's all you need to do. So many signs we see today foretell the future.

The problem is that you're passing judgment on what shape reality is taking. You don't like it. This creates denial.

Denial denial denial. Until it actually happens. Will you then get angry with the people who told you about it before it happened?

In any case, what was the question you want an answer for that has your Autobot circuits in such a tangle?

Go read my first quote that ask for proof people are dumping PCs to iPad only. All you have supplied is links to articles and studies trying to make head lines.
I never said the the iPad is not extending the life of some PC or allowing people to dump the laptop for desktop only. I could even see it reducing the need for multiple computers in a house for some people but that still does not mean they belong in the same market.
Putting them in the. Same market is like lumping tv and computer monitors in the same group.