Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Hopefully his 5 years at apple (in car division), he will in some form, "done most of the heavy work" and he is now looking for new challenges.
Ford certainly has major challenges ahead... I expect that BMW dies within the next two years and that Ford follows them about a year after.

Ford is backed into a corner at this point. Over the past few decades, they've gotten rid of their heavy truck division, their sedans, and most global markets. They're down to little more than pickups in North America and SUVs in a few markets.

The downsizing has left Ford extremely vulnerable to disruption. People entering the pickup market (like Rivian and Tesla) and growing in the SUV market (Tesla) are going to inevitably steal some sales from Ford - Ford can't afford to lose much before they die. Their Maverick might help boost sales volumes, but it's going to be a low margin vehicle which won't really help Ford's bottom line that much.
 
  • Like
Reactions: macsplusmacs
Spare me, there’s no evidence at any point in history where driving an SUV made you safer than a sedan.

And the only case ever made for SUVs being safer was because they protected you from other SUVs (meaning smaller cars had to get bigger to accommodate).

I personally know the many use cases for SUVs and pickup trucks. Comes with the territory living in rural America.

But you cannot convince me that there’s any reason that city dwellers and suburbanites, which make 50% of the U.S. population make any use for their huge-ass vehicles.
No one needs an excuse to drive any street legal vehicle they desire. Luckily we live in the US where such decisions are not dictated by the government or simply not available for purchase because of economic policies.
 
They should be worried. You forget how strong the Apple ecosystem can be.

And also, this project was rumored to take a long time to develop from the very beginning
Cars need roads and power. Some regular service, as well. What is the strength of Apple’s ecosystem in this context? It should also be kept in mind that regulators all over the world try to prevent monopolies from forming in car manufacturing.

Tesla has often been seen as a new player disrupting existing markets. But has it? It is doing well but still losing market share in EVs, and it has been forced to open its charging network to other brands. No monopoly or dominant position there.

I am sure Apple can create a great car with very nice user interface. Disruptive? Very difficult to imagine.
 
I didn't know that companies 'accepted' leadership of any other company, it's more like companies fail to innovate. Ask Blackberry. I'm sure they would never accept Apple in their business either. And honestly, Apple is most likely looking at a 'car as service' place in the industry. Not selling cars to consumers. I'm not sure if anyone has a head start that precludes another company from making inroads because the market itself will change radically. And Apple would never compete with Ford. I don't think they will make pick-ups, to start. : >

The established phone industry like Nokia, Motorola, or BlackBerry will never accept a leadership of Apple...

Dream further – you do not seriously compare these sleepy companies like Blackberry and Nokia with global players like Toyota, VW, Daimler (Mercedes), BMW and other which started late but are – with their car designing know how and all car technologies including automized production factories – clearly in front in competition to any fantasy project of Apple, do you? 🙃😂
 
  • Like
Reactions: PC_tech
I bet Nokia would have loved to get a hold of an Apple engineer to see what they were working on.
Nokia didn’t fall because of what Apple did. Nokia fell because:

1. It did not have the US customers
2. It became too self-confident
3. Long success had made the organization unprepared for crises
4. The software platform was old and clumsy

It is not clear whether Nokia could have won the game at all; Apple had a superior consumer brand in the US. On the other hand, it is clear the seeds for the catastrophe were planted years earlier, not when Apple introduced the first iPhone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: interessiert
Ford certainly has major challenges ahead... I expect that BMW dies within the next two years and that Ford follows them about a year after.

Ford is backed into a corner at this point. Over the past few decades, they've gotten rid of their heavy truck division, their sedans, and most global markets. They're down to little more than pickups in North America and SUVs in a few markets.

The downsizing has left Ford extremely vulnerable to disruption. People entering the pickup market (like Rivian and Tesla) and growing in the SUV market (Tesla) are going to inevitably steal some sales from Ford - Ford can't afford to lose much before they die. Their Maverick might help boost sales volumes, but it's going to be a low margin vehicle which won't really help Ford's bottom line that much.
Why would BMW die in two years? They have around $100B revenue and $5B profits yearly. Their EV portfolio is growing fast (i4, iX4 just coming out), and they have a very strong position in the luxury car market.

Ford is not strong, but that company has a lot of first hand experience on crises. Ford’s emerging EV portfolio looks quite decent; it has even gotten a as nice foothold in Europe with Mustang Mach-e. EVs are still in the margin, but the growth is fast.

Admittedly, the market in the US is quite different from that I’m Europe or China.
 
Apple should buy a company like Ford. It would be around 60B? Slowly have them move to Apple software platform and battery breakthrough. Eventually Ford could produce an entire new line of Apple branded vehicule. Sold directly on the Apple store. I wish Apple would start thinking outside the box sometime.
Apple should spend more of it's money fighting the Dealership laws in the US. As it stands Apple will only be allowed direct sales in 12 of the 50 US states, having to work a deal in 8 and banned in the rest.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JMacHack
Not good. He must have been offered an excellent compensation at Ford to make the move.

Or he realized that explaining the reality of cars to a phone company was a short road to madness. Occasionally, very, very occasionally, a company not known for producing a product steps up and makes a notably better product than the established companies. But that is the exception. I wouldn’t trust Ford to make a good cell phone and I don’t trust Apple to make a good car.
 
If Ford repeats the Mach-E: style and e-performance across the rest of their model line, it's a WIN.

The Mach-E hasn’t been a sterling success, but some of that is because people didn’t like the Mustang being an EV. Die hard Mustang fans wanted a V8 muscle car. There’s a lot of interest in the upcoming Ford EV line of F series pickups and it’s not going to blindside anyone because they are letting websites and magazines test drive them now and most of the reviews are very good.
 
Dream further – you do not seriously compare these sleepy companies like Blackberry and Nokia with global players like Toyota, VW, Daimler (Mercedes), BMW and other which started late but are – with their car designing know how and all car technologies including automized production factories – clearly in front in competition to any fantasy project of Apple, do you? 🙃😂
Clearly, they were all in front of Tesla, a fantasy project company, and it is thriving. Anything can happen.
 
Why would BMW die in two years? They have around $100B revenue and $5B profits yearly. Their EV portfolio is growing fast (i4, iX4 just coming out), and they have a very strong position in the luxury car market.
BMW's best selling EV is a PHEV the 530e, which manages 4K sales per month.

Across their lineup, I don't believe they have a single BEV, and their PHEVs collectively are at 20K per month. This represents about 10% of all their sales.

The thing that will kill them is Tesla. As of 3 years ago, 1 in 3 Teslas were sold with a BMW as a trade-in (newer statistics aren't available). That suggests that when Tesla brings a new factory online making 500K cars per year, BMW's sales will drop by 160K per year. Tesla isn't building just one new factory to be brought online this year though - they've got two that are scheduled to start production in the next 6 months. This will translate to BMW losing 320K vehicle sales.

That represents about 15% of BMW's sales. When revenue drops from $100B to $85B, that turns their $5B profits into a $10B loss. It doesn't take a major drop in sales to bankrupt an automaker - take a look at GM and Chrysler in 2008. They both went bankrupt despite having their sales only drop ~10% YoY.

BMW has enough cash to survive one year of losing $10B. But it's not like Tesla will suddenly stop growing - I expect the year after BMW will losing $25B. I don't think there's a universe in which BMW can adequately cut spending and raise money fast enough to survive revenues dropping so sharply over the next two years.

BMW is vulnerable like Ford. Ford is so heavily dependent on pickups in North America. BMW is heavily dependent on Luxury SUVs in Europe. Having Tesla build a brand new luxury SUV factory in Germany will kill BMW. And then I expect Tesla's Texas Pickup Factory + Rivian's Pickup factory (I forget where that is. Illinois?) will kill Ford in 2023.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: interessiert
Apple should spend more of it's money fighting the Dealership laws in the US. As it stands Apple will only be allowed direct sales in 12 of the 50 US states, having to work a deal in 8 and banned in the rest.
As it stands, Apple doesn’t have a car to sell....
 
  • Haha
Reactions: interessiert
BMW's best selling EV is a PHEV the 530e, which manages 4K sales per month.

Across their lineup, I don't believe they have a single BEV, and their PHEVs collectively are at 20K per month. This represents about 10% of all their sales.

The thing that will kill them is Tesla. As of 3 years ago, 1 in 3 Teslas were sold with a BMW as a trade-in (newer statistics aren't available). That suggests that when Tesla brings a new factory online making 500K cars per year, BMW's sales will drop by 160K per year. Tesla isn't building just one new factory to be brought online this year though - they've got two that are scheduled to start production in the next 6 months. This will translate to BMW losing 320K vehicle sales.

That represents about 15% of BMW's sales. When revenue drops from $100B to $85B, that turns their $5B profits into a $10B loss. It doesn't take a major drop in sales to bankrupt an automaker - take a look at GM and Chrysler in 2008. They both went bankrupt despite having their sales only drop ~10% YoY.

BMW has enough cash to survive one year of losing $10B. But it's not like Tesla will suddenly stop growing - I expect the year after BMW will losing $25B. I don't think there's a universe in which BMW can adequately cut spending and raise money fast enough to survive revenues dropping so sharply over the next two years.

BMW is vulnerable like Ford. Ford is so heavily dependent on pickups in North America. BMW is heavily dependent on Luxury SUVs in Europe. Having Tesla build a brand new luxury SUV factory in Germany will kill BMW. And then I expect Tesla's Texas Pickup Factory + Rivian's Pickup factory (I forget where that is. Illinois?) will kill Ford in 2023.
BMW has had a BEV in its lineup for more than five years (BMW i3), and that car has been the most advanced BEV in its class (but wrong class for a big success). BMW has also recently rolled out BMW iX3, which is based on BMW X3. However, it has just announced BMW i4 and iX. i4 is a relatively direct competitor for Tesla, and iX is a luxury SUV in a class where Tesla does not have much to offer. In its roadmap, BMW will offer 13 different BEVs available across all segments by 2023.

BMW is doing well this year, its H1 results were better than ever. Its Q2 EBITDA was 6,000 M€. Its half-year deliveries of PHEVs were 117,000 units plus 36,000 BEVs. The latter number is small, but it has tripled from 2020 and most of it is from iX3 which started to roll out in H1 2021. This year's sales numbers will depend very much on BMW's manufacturing capability (component shortage).

It is clear that ICEV sales will plummet and PHEV/BEV sales will increase (first both, then BEVs). So, it is quite reasonable to state that any brand without good EVs will have a problem within next few years. Most European brands have understood this relatively well, mostly because EVs are more popular in Europe than in the US. In H1 2021 500.000 BEVs were sold in Europe (market share ~7.5 %) and 200.000 in the US (market share ~2.5%). If PHEVs are taken into account, the difference is much bigger.

I do not have a bimmer, but my middle-class neighbourhood is full of them. They have a quite different image from that in the US, here BMW is mostly a nice family car. Most new ones carry the letter "e" after their model number. If you put BMW i4 against Tesla Model 3, most bimmerists (and other drivers of German cars) will choose BMW for its more premium feeling (from the European perspective, that is). On the other hand, the real competition will be between Model Y and Ford, VW, Audi, Skoda, Hyundai, etc.

I am not saying BMW will win Tesla globally. What I am saying is that BMW is not in a bad position at the moment. Of the larger European brands I would say Stellantis (Peugeot, Citroën, Opel, Jeep, Fiat, Chrysler ...) is the least prepared to the electrified future. It has just introduced several BEV models (Peugeot e-208/2008, Citroen e-C4, Corsa-e...) with slightly outdated technology.
 
The Mach-E hasn’t been a sterling success, but some of that is because people didn’t like the Mustang being an EV. Die hard Mustang fans wanted a V8 muscle car. There’s a lot of interest in the upcoming Ford EV line of F series pickups and it’s not going to blindside anyone because they are letting websites and magazines test drive them now and most of the reviews are very good.
Difficult to say anything about the success as the availability is quite constrained due to the component shortage. In the short run, Tesla wins, because they can deliver. My local Tesla dealer said I could have a Tesla Model Y this month if I signed today. My local Ford dealer whispered "maybe May".
 
BMW is vulnerable like Ford. Ford is so heavily dependent on pickups in North America. BMW is heavily dependent on Luxury SUVs in Europe. Having Tesla build a brand new luxury SUV factory in Germany will kill BMW. And then I expect Tesla's Texas Pickup Factory + Rivian's Pickup factory (I forget where that is. Illinois?) will kill Ford in 2023.
Champaign Illinois! It’s where Mitsubishi used to build cars.

As for Ford, they have a death grip on the “I need to compensate for something” crowd of suburban pickup owners. And if that fails them, then the United States government will bail them out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ArtOfWarfare
Gurman seems to be pulling the drama cord a little too tightly in those Tweets.

Very doubtful this one person would sink the entire project, at least IMO.
It’s pretty clear wher German was getting some leaks from those angry tweets.
 
As it stands, Apple doesn’t have a car to sell....
Which is what makes all of this so interesting. Maybe Apple would be willing to deliver cars to folks homes in the states that won’t allow them to sell directly. It is also interesting that no one else is talking about this hiccup in their home market.
 
BMW has had a BEV in its lineup for more than five years (BMW i3), and that car has been the most advanced BEV in its class (but wrong class for a big success).
The i3 was 8 years old, but has been discontinued. It was never particularly competitive, combining a high price with mediocre specs. Its best market is the US, where it sold 40K units over its 8 year life. For context, Tesla manages to sell that many Model 3s every month and their Model Y will likely sell over 60K per month once they finish ramping production in the next year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jerryk
As for Ford, they have a death grip on the “I need to compensate for something” crowd of suburban pickup owners. And if that fails them, then the United States government will bail them out.
I believe the F-Series sales are a 50/50 mix between people who actually need a pickup and the compensating for something crowd.

The people who need a pickup can be swayed pretty easily to other vehicles - those same people will shop between a Silverado and a Titan and whatever else. They'll consider Rivian's pickup trucks. They'll consider Tesla's Cybertruck. And some of them will switch. ~30% of those people switching coupled with 10% of the compensation group switching will be enough to drop F-Series sales by 20% and kill Ford.

I'm not sure the US is going to bail out Ford. I think there's a decent chance that somebody else buys Ford. UAW and the Democratic party might be okay with Ford being bought by GM or Stallantis, since employees would remain within the same union.

UAW and Democrats would hate it, but Musk might have Tesla buy Ford. This would give them the Mustang, Model E, and F-Series brands... I'm not sure. That would come with a lot of baggage in the form of unions, dealers, and legacy ICE vehicles, but it would come with a lot of goodwill in middle America, maybe.
 
I believe the F-Series sales are a 50/50 mix between people who actually need a pickup and the compensating for something crowd.

The people who need a pickup can be swayed pretty easily to other vehicles - those same people will shop between a Silverado and a Titan and whatever else. They'll consider Rivian's pickup trucks. They'll consider Tesla's Cybertruck. And some of them will switch. ~30% of those people switching coupled with 10% of the compensation group switching will be enough to drop F-Series sales by 20% and kill Ford.

I'm not sure the US is going to bail out Ford. I think there's a decent chance that somebody else buys Ford. UAW and the Democratic party might be okay with Ford being bought by GM or Stallantis, since employees would remain within the same union.

UAW and Democrats would hate it, but Musk might have Tesla buy Ford. This would give them the Mustang, Model E, and F-Series brands... I'm not sure. That would come with a lot of baggage in the form of unions, dealers, and legacy ICE vehicles, but it would come with a lot of goodwill in middle America, maybe.
If I may speak for my experience as a middle American and rust-belter, I have some disagreements.

In my job I encounter the demographics that need trucks to do our jobs. We simply cannot afford new trucks. The prices for new and used trucks are quickly ballooning out of control, the last time I went shopping for a new vehicle my choices were a barely used hatchback (love my Focus, by the by) or a choice of decade old, 100,000 mile trucks.

There is no world where 15,000 for a truck well past it’s usable lifespan is sane. And when new off-the-lot trucks often go past 40,000 dollars for a half ton, the target market becomes obvious, and it isn’t us who use them daily.

As for electric trucks, I can 100% assure you that they’re more hype than practical as currently. If you look at the marketing for these trucks they are “hobby vehicles”, not workhorses. The cybertruck is shown as taking a four wheeler into the desert to drive across dunes, and the Rivian is shown camping.

These are not hauling livestock, or tractors, or farm machinery. They would be unsuited to do that for multiple reasons I won’t get into right now.
To clarify, I do believe they will get there someday, but not in the near future.

And, these suffer from the price bloat problem I stated above, The Electric F-150 is the cheapest, and it starts at 40,000. The Rivian at 60,000.

Without delving too far into politics, the last Auto bailout was heavily Union driven, and midwestern Democrats are heavily Union. Likewise most Democrats are very anti-big-business, I can’t see them approving a GM-Ford merger over a straight bailout.
As for Tesla, I don’t see any benefit to them in buying a legacy automaker. They already are the household name of EVs, and ICE engines wouldn’t appeal to them. Gaining access to a dealer network wouldn’t appeal either because they’re fighting the dealership system. (Personally, I believe Tesla is far overvalued currently.)
 
Which is what makes all of this so interesting. Maybe Apple would be willing to deliver cars to folks homes in the states that won’t allow them to sell directly. It is also interesting that no one else is talking about this hiccup in their home market.
I’m not sure what there is to talk about when they don’t have a car…..
 
Apple Car: notifies authorities whenever you go over the speed limit.

Tesla: pops open bar and rolls joints for you while you play video games and it drives you home at ludicrous speed avoiding police speed traps.

As for headline: dude who changes jobs a lot, changes job and takes better salary + stock pkg for the 19th time in a row. Shocking!

Isn’t it actually:

Tesla: Runs straight into nearest emergency response vehicle as soon as you turn on FSD.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.