Apple Celebrates Pride in San Francisco Parade

[AsherN]

Just wow. It may not be for you, but you really have no idea about your kid.

 

[tkermit]

Why do you want your children to be straight?

I mean, life is probably somewhat easier in most places if you're straight, so I get it from that point of view. But it's just not something you can control. I wish I was a bit taller, but that's just the hand you're dealt and, in the grand scheme of things, being short or tall or a person's sexual orientation is not going to, certainly doesn't have to, stand in the way of their well-being in a progressive society.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Being gay is fine just as smoking pot is fine. Just not for me or my kids. I do not discriminate against those with whom I disagree. I do reserve the right to disagree and not to accept their ways, though.

I would support legalization of pot in my state, as I believe that legalization of pot would reduce crime that stems from the illegal pot market and would such legalization would bring significant revenue to the state. However, my child would get in a lot of trouble if I caught him smoking pot. I would have a serious talk with him, and I would try to make sure that he understands all the negative effects of smoking pot. Something being legal doesn't mean that it is OK for my child to engage in that behavior. Therefore, me considering legalization of pot being a good idea has nothing to do with how I feel about my child engaging in that behavior.

By the same token, I would do everything possible to steer my child away from any association with any organization that promotes and endorses the LGBTQ life style. That is my choice. This choice doesn't mean that I want to discriminate against LGBTQ or teach my children that being gay is a sin. I am far from it, and even though I do believe in God, I also believe that God is powerful enough to mete out his own judgment without needing my help. I will leave it up to God to figure out what causes someone to turn to the LGBTQ life style and it's up to God to reward or punish any particular LGBTQ person. I do not have a judgement one way or the other as to what's God's opinion is about LGBTQ individuals.

My responsibility as a citizen is to treat other citizens with respect and without any discrimination as long as they do not infringe upon my rights to practice my own lifestyle and raise my children in the way that I consider appropriate.

Now, to answer your question, I believe that making an LGBTQ watch face and placing it in a set of a limited number of default watch faces available on the watchOS platform is exactly that infringement of my rights to guard my child from the "in your face" LGBTQ lifestyle propaganda. That watch face should be available as an optional download, but it should not be in there as a default watch face. I know this is very subtle and most people think I'm freaking out for no reason, but this was intentionally done to appear so subtle. There was no need to do this other than to stick it to everyone who can't help but to encounter this watch face as they flip through the very limited set of default watch faces. This is, of course, a very small thing, and if it stood on its own, I wouldn't be objecting so much. However, Tim Cook goes much beyond that. He brings his social activism into the corporate culture of Apple. People feel that if they do not support Tim Cook's passion for LGBTQ causes they would be branded as bigots, just like numerous people call me a bigot on this forum. That is not such a subtle way for the CEO to impose his/her views on the employees. Why do I care? Well, for one, I'm a shareholder, and I disagree with this behavior. I would also disagree if an Apple CEO were a Christian who would try similar methods of "encouraging" his employees to "accept Jesus," etc. I think these social agendas should be kept out of the corporate world.

So you are now comparing homosexuality to trying a substance like it’s the same sort of impulse? So many people must be facepalming reading that lol.

Would you be against Apple supporting a charity like UNICEF and forcing it on people or is it just because Pride is associated with the LGBT community? Microsoft didn’t get this sort of criticism for their work in Africa. America isn’t ready for a watch face or a company supporting a cause that offends the Christian Right it seems.

Btw, the Pride watch face is not a default. It’s in the ‘New to WatchOS’ gallery and requires you to download it to your watch, so you do have choice whether it’s on there or not. If you owned an Apple Watch then you’d know this.

 

[sirozha]

So you can confidently say that without knowing then by your own admission?

That would be the accusation thrown at me if I said I were not gay but knew what it was like to be gay. No one knows what it's like to be anyone else unless you are exactly that. I would never understand what it were like to be in a wheelchair unless I were in a wheelchair myself. I can imagine all the challenges of being in a wheelchair, but I would never know what it's like.
[doublepost=1530637792][/doublepost]

So you are now comparing homosexuality to trying a substance like it’s the same sort of impulse? So many people must be facepalming reading that lol.

Would you be against Apple supporting a charity like UNICEF and forcing it on people or is it just because Pride is associated with the LGBT community? Microsoft didn’t get this sort of criticism for their work in Africa. America isn’t ready for a watch face or a company supporting a cause that offends the Christian Right it seems.

Btw, the Pride watch face is not a default. It’s in the ‘New to WatchOS’ gallery and requires you to download it to your watch, so you do have choice whether it’s on there or not. If you owned an Apple Watch then you’d know this.

Yes. I would be against Apple supporting any charity. Apple shareholders can support any charity they want as individuals. Tim Cook is welcome to support the LGBTQ causes as an individual with his own not so modest resources and on his own time, but not with Apple's resources and not bringing other Apple employees into this cause.

 

[AsherN]

Yes. I would be against Apple supporting any charity. Apple shareholders can support any charity they want as individuals.

You must be pretty pissed at every company then, because they all support charities and causes. or is it just the ones supporting causes you don't like?

 

[tkermit]

I would be against Apple supporting any charity. Apple shareholders can support any charity they want as individuals. Tim Cook is welcome to support the LGBTQ causes as an individual with his own not so modest resources and on his own time, but not with Apple's resources and not bringing other Apple employees into this cause.

So sell your Apple stock and/or stop buying Apple products and certainly don't work for them if you're so against their values. Pretty simple.

https://www.businessinsider.de/apple-ceo-tim-cook-companies-should-have-values-like-people-2016-8

 

[sirozha]

You must be pretty pissed at every company then, because they all support charities and causes. or is it just the ones supporting causes you don't like?

No, it's not just the ones I like.

A lot of companies match employee's contribution to the charity of the employee's choice. This is better than the corporation deciding on its own what charity to choose, but I would prefer corporations not engaging in any charitable donations. Instead, pay decent salaries to employees and decent dividend to shareholders and let employees and shareholders contribute to the charities of their choice.

 

[bandrews]

Being gay is fine just as smoking pot is fine. Just not for me or my kids. I do not discriminate against those with whom I disagree. I do reserve the right to disagree and not to accept their ways, though.

I would support legalization of pot in my state, as I believe that legalization of pot would reduce crime that stems from the illegal pot market and would such legalization would bring significant revenue to the state. However, my child would get in a lot of trouble if I caught him smoking pot. I would have a serious talk with him, and I would try to make sure that he understands all the negative effects of smoking pot. Something being legal doesn't mean that it is OK for my child to engage in that behavior. Therefore, me considering legalization of pot being a good idea has nothing to do with how I feel about my child engaging in that behavior.

By the same token, I would do everything possible to steer my child away from any association with any organization that promotes and endorses the LGBTQ life style. That is my choice. This choice doesn't mean that I want to discriminate against LGBTQ or teach my children that being gay is a sin. I am far from it, and even though I do believe in God, I also believe that God is powerful enough to mete out his own judgment without needing my help. I will leave it up to God to figure out what causes someone to turn to the LGBTQ life style and it's up to God to reward or punish any particular LGBTQ person. I do not have a judgement one way or the other as to what's God's opinion is about LGBTQ individuals.

My responsibility as a citizen is to treat other citizens with respect and without any discrimination as long as they do not infringe upon my rights to practice my own lifestyle and raise my children in the way that I consider appropriate.

Now, to answer your question, I believe that making an LGBTQ watch face and placing it in a set of a limited number of default watch faces available on the watchOS platform is exactly that infringement of my rights to guard my child from the "in your face" LGBTQ lifestyle propaganda.

So you're essentially saying that if your son came to you and said "Dad, I think I might be gay", would you:

Blame a watch face/band
Try to make sure that he understands all the negative effects of being gay
Tell him that just because it is legal doesn't mean that it is OK for him to engage in that behaviour.
Sell your shares in Apple (or maybe not if monetary gain outweighs your moral convictions)

OR

Tell him you love him no matter what his sexuality and that you'll support him.

You still selfishly and erroneously believe that the world is out to convert/can convert your son but don't give a s*** about any of the kids out there desperate for role models. You say you don't discriminate but lecturing your kid on just the negative aspects of being gay and telling him it's not OK sounds pretty damn discriminatory.

 

[sirozha]

So sell your Apple stock and/or stop buying Apple products and certainly don't work for them if you're so against their values. Pretty simple.

https://www.businessinsider.de/apple-ceo-tim-cook-companies-should-have-values-like-people-2016-8

Thanks for your advice. I will take it into consideration.

 

[bandrews]

No, it's not just the ones I like.

A lot of companies match employee's contribution to the charity of the employee's choice. This is better than the corporation deciding on its own what charity to choose, but I would prefer corporations not engaging in any charitable donations. Instead, pay decent salaries to employees and decent dividend to shareholders and let employees and shareholders contribute to the charities of their choice.

Apple do that too.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

That would be the accusation thrown at me if I said I were not gay but knew what it was like to be gay. No one knows what it's like to be anyone else unless you are exactly that. I would never understand what it were like to be in a wheelchair unless I were in a wheelchair myself. I can imagine all the challenges of being in a wheelchair, but I would never know what it's like.

I don’t think it’s out of the realms of possibility to understand what ‘attraction’ feels like from our own perspectives. I know my brother in law feels the same love for his husband that I do for my wife and like us they are a married couple. It’s not weirdly obscure or vastly different.

Yes. I would be against Apple supporting any charity. Apple shareholders can support any charity they want as individuals. Tim Cook is welcome to support the LGBTQ causes as an individual with his own not so modest resources.

Apple is currently returning record profits for its shareholders. When they stop doing that, then the complaints about financial focus can be made. They have supported charities, in particular their Product Red range has been running for 13 years now with support from musician figures like Bono and Chris Martin. Why did you invest and not complain before? Or is it just the Pride association that has given birth to a wave of hypocrisy?

 

[sirozha]

So you're essentially saying that if your son came to you and said "Dad, I think I might be gay", would you:

Blame a watch face/band
Try to make sure that he understands all the negative effects of being gay
Tell him that just because it is legal doesn't mean that it is OK for him to engage in that behaviour.
Sell your shares in Apple (or maybe not if monetary gain outweighs your moral convictions)

OR

Tell him you love him no matter what his sexuality and that you'll support him.

You still selfishly and erroneously believe that the world is out to convert/can convert your son but don't give a s*** about any of the kids out there desperate for role models. You say you don't discriminate but lecturing your kid on just the negative aspects of being gay and telling him it's not OK sounds pretty damn discriminatory.

Are you high? Is it discriminatory for a Jewish person to steer his child away from going to a church and becoming Christian? Is it discriminatory for a Christian person to discourage his child from converting to Judaism? Are you telling me that child rearing is by its own definition discriminatory and parents should let children raise themselves?

If my child comes to me and says that he is gay, I would try to figure out what makes him think he is gay. Obviously, if he is gay by birth, there's nothing that can be done about it. What I'm trying to do is to make sure he doesn't get influenced by others to choose the gay lifestyle because someone he knows is so cool and is gay.

It's been pointed out here that most people are not binary and they can go either way. If this were the case (which I do not necessarily agree with but completely accept this may in fact be true), then it is obviously possible for a child to be swayed one way or the other based on the company that he/she keeps.

 

[bandrews]

That would be the accusation thrown at me if I said I were not gay but knew what it was like to be gay. No one knows what it's like to be anyone else unless you are exactly that. I would never understand what it were like to be in a wheelchair unless I were in a wheelchair myself. I can imagine all the challenges of being in a wheelchair, but I would never know what it's like.

I can imagine what it's like to be straight.

Not living for years in fear that if you told anyone your friends and family would disown you
Not having to explain why you don't have kids
Not having to correct people when they ask about your wife
Not feeling ashamed to hold your partner's hand in public
Not having your uncle tell you "Hitler had the right idea about the gays"
Not feeling personally offended when some stranger on the internet says you "lifestyle" is wrong

My dad, probably in a "well meaning" way like you treat your child once busted me after seeing my browser history. I was 17. I tried assuring him it was "just a phase" - and I told myself that so many times I almost believed it.

Know what he told me? That if I was gay, I'd be unhappy my whole life, get AIDS and die alone. Not in a harsh, shouting way - he was sat on the edge of my bed and was quite calm about it. I remember the conversation like it was yesterday. That f***** me up.

Luckily we have a better relationship now but that will stay with me forever.

 

[sirozha]

I don’t think it’s out of the realms of possibility to understand what ‘attraction’ feels like from our own perspectives. I know my brother in law feels the same love for his husband that I do for my wife and like us they are a married couple. It’s not weirdly obscure or vastly different.


Apple is currently returning record profits for its shareholders. When they stop doing that, then the complaints about financial focus can be made. They have supported charities, in particular their Product Red range has been running for 13 years now with support from musician figures like Bono and Chris Martin. Why did you invest and not complain before? Or is it just the Pride association that has given birth to a wave of hypocrisy?

I already answered that question several times. I know you want me to say that I'm bigoted against LGBTQ.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I already answered that question several times. I know you want me to say that I'm bigoted against LGBTQ.

You’ve already made that clear.
My question is even more valid now you’ve said you don’t want Apple to support any charities, yet they’ve done this for over a decade. So what has changed? It must be Tim Cook promoting Pride that you don’t like.

 

[bandrews]

Are you high? Is it discriminatory for a Jewish person to steer his child away from going to a church and becoming Christian? Is it discriminatory for a Christian person to discourage his child from converting to Judaism? Are you telling me that child rearing is by its own definition discriminatory and parents should let children raise themselves?

If my child comes to me and says that he is gay, I would try to figure out what makes him think he is gay. Obviously, if he is gay by birth, there's nothing that can be done about it. What I'm trying to do is to make sure he doesn't get influenced by others to choose the gay lifestyle because someone he knows is so cool and is gay.

It's been pointed out here that most people are not binary and they can go either way. If this were the case (which I do not necessarily agree with but completely accept this may in fact be true), then it is obviously possible for a child to be swayed one way or the other based on the company that he/she keeps.

Nobody. Is. Trying. To. Or. Can. Turn. Your. Son. Gay.

 

[AsherN]

Are you high? Is it discriminatory for a Jewish person to steer his child away from going to a church and becoming Christian? Is it discriminatory for a Christian person to discourage his child from converting to Judaism? Are you telling me that child rearing is by its own definition discriminatory and parents should let children raise themselves?

If my child comes to me and says that he is gay, I would try to figure out what makes him think he is gay. Obviously, if he is gay by birth, there's nothing that can be done about it. What I'm trying to do is to make sure he doesn't get influenced by others to choose the gay lifestyle because someone he knows is so cool and is gay.

It's been pointed out here that most people are not binary and they can go either way. If this were the case (which I do not necessarily agree with but completely accept this may in fact be true), then it is obviously possible for a child to be swayed one way or the other based on the company that he/she keeps.

That's not what not binary means. it means it;s not a complete either/or. But unless you are one of the few that sit in the middle of the scale, you are predominantly one way or the other.

If your son tells you he's gay, support and love him. don't try to find a way to change him. At best it will estrange him from you. At worst, it can lead to suicide.

 

[sirozha]

I can imagine what it's like to be straight.

Not living for years in fear that if you told anyone your friends and family would disown you // It's your inferiority complex more than anything else.
Not having to explain why you don't have kids // I had my first child when I was 39. I had to do the same: explain why I do not have kids.
Not having to correct people when they ask about your wife // Should people stop using the word "wife"?
Not feeling ashamed to hold your partner's hand in public // It's your inferiority complex more than anything else.
Not having your uncle tell you "Hitler had the right idea about the gays" // Your uncle is a dirty homophobic bigot and by extension a dirty anti-Semite.
Not feeling personally offended when some stranger on the internet says you "lifestyle" is wrong // it's your inferiority complex more than anything else.

My dad, probably in a "well meaning" way like you treat your child once busted me after seeing my browser history. I was 17. I tried assuring him it was "just a phase" - and I told myself that so many times I almost believed it.

Know what he told me? That if I was gay, I'd be unhappy my whole life, get AIDS and die alone. Not in a harsh, shouting way - he was sat on the edge of my bed and was quite calm about it. I remember the conversation like it was yesterday. That f***** me up.

Luckily we have a better relationship now but that will stay with me forever.

Read my comments inline.

You are not very confident in your choice. If you were, you would not feel ashamed all the time. Stop feeling ashamed and be who you want to be. Some people, like your uncle, deserve to never been seen again. As for your dad, you both can agree to disagree and move on. Your dad meant well for you. That should not have "f***ed you up". Again, you may want to go see a shrink to find out why you feel so victimized and ashamed. If the gay lifestyle is your nature and how you were born, why would you be ashamed all the time? I thought gay people who are born gay are PROUD of who they are and not ASHAMED. After all, they march in a Gay PRIDE Parade. You seem to be marching in a Gay SHAME Parade.

Or, perhaps, I just don't know what it is like to be gay.

 

[bandrews]

Read my comments inline.

You are not very confident in your choice. If you were, you would not feel ashamed all the time. Stop feeling ashamed and be who you want to be. Some people, like your uncle, deserve to never been seen again. As for your dad, you both can agree to disagree and move on.

My "inferiority complex" is brought about by people like you calling it a lifestyle and saying its wrong.
I was exposed to that from birth and it was you who said how impressionable children's brains are. Try unf****** 18 years of gaslighting.

You say my "choice" it's not my f******* choice. If it was my "choice" I'd have chosen the easy path.

You say "be who you want to be" yet you're saying cool gays are turning kids gay. Make your mind up.

 

[Falhófnir]

I guess I should have realised religion was in the equation somewhere in this exchange of views. One thing I’ve learned over and over again is, if there is anybody who is going to judge you, it’s somebody hiding behind a religion.

I just find it sad that an unfortunate Semitic prejudice was spread around the world on the coattails of religion to ruin so many lives - we know of Greco-Roman culture that not only was homophobia not a thing pre-Christianity, but they had a completely different view of sexuality - heterosexual and homosexual weren’t classifications - it was rather viewed as masculine pleasure - penetrating and feminine pleasure - being penetrated. I still remember a discussion with our history teacher about Alan Turing’s treatment after his role in WW2 in school, what a truly sad case that was. I think that ‘unscripted’ tangent in the last 1/4 of an hour of a history lesson probably coloured my view of sexuality to be more accepting than I may otherwise have been, and it didn’t even turn me gay as some people seem to suggest might be the case with ‘impressionable school-age minds’!

 

[Number-Six]

Are you high? Is it discriminatory for a Jewish person to steer his child away from going to a church and becoming Christian? Is it discriminatory for a Christian person to discourage his child from converting to Judaism? Are you telling me that child rearing is by its own definition discriminatory and parents should let children raise themselves?

If my child comes to me and says that he is gay, I would try to figure out what makes him think he is gay. Obviously, if he is gay by birth, there's nothing that can be done about it. What I'm trying to do is to make sure he doesn't get influenced by others to choose the gay lifestyle because someone he knows is so cool and is gay.

It's been pointed out here that most people are not binary and they can go either way. If this were the case (which I do not necessarily agree with but completely accept this may in fact be true), then it is obviously possible for a child to be swayed one way or the other based on the company that he/she keeps.

If the way you talk in your home is in any way similar to the way you've been talking in this thread, if your child is gay he's not going to tell you at all.

He's going to hide it as best as he can, or repress it. He's going to be miserable, he's going to resent you and probably not even know why.

 

[sirozha]

You’ve already made that clear.
My question is even more valid now you’ve said you don’t want Apple to support any charities, yet they’ve done this for over a decade. So what has changed? It must be Tim Cook promoting Pride that you don’t like.

Actually, I had just as much objection to Apple contributing to any charity. Why am I so focused on Apple? Because I have a very large AAPL portfolio that is numbered in 7 digits, so I'm very much interested in Apple as a company and the direction in which the CEO is taking it. With all due respect, whether I sell my shares and run or I stay and raise the concerns I have is my prerogative.
[doublepost=1530641329][/doublepost]

If the way you talk in your home is in any way similar to the way you've been talking in this thread, if your child is gay he's not going to tell you at all.

He's going to hide it as best as he can, or repress it. He's going to be miserable, he's going to resent you and probably not even know why.

Fortunately, my child is too small to consider his sexual orientation. I can tell you that I had to quit my synagogue because the rabbi preached LGBTQ propaganda from the pulpit instead of doing what a rabbi is supposed to do. That rabbi gets rewards from the LGBTQ community for supporting their causes and marching in Pride Parades. He teaches LGBTQ in front of little kids in the audience. That is another example of LGBTQ propaganda permeating the institutions where it should not belong. One thing is to have LGBTQ members, but it's quite another thing educating little kids about LGBTQ lifestyle from the position of authority. So, yes, there are people who try to make my kid gay whether or not they realize what they are doing. Not discriminating against LGBTQ and making LGBTQ the topic of social agenda are two different things. If the parents do not care, the children will be inundated with the LGBTQ lifestyle propaganda from various sources. What the influence of this exposure is for the future of the kids' sexual orientation is open for discussion. Maybe there will be a study one day that runs for 30 years and tracks all kinds of kids from heterosexual, gay, lesbian, and other families to understand what happens to kids. Right now, there is no such study to rely on.

 

[bandrews]

Read my comments inline.

You are not very confident in your choice. If you were, you would not feel ashamed all the time. Stop feeling ashamed and be who you want to be. Some people, like your uncle, deserve to never been seen again. As for your dad, you both can agree to disagree and move on. Your dad meant well for you. That should not have "f***ed you up". Again, you may want to go see a shrink to find out why you feel so victimized and ashamed. If the gay lifestyle is your nature and how you were born, why would you be ashamed all the time? I thought gay people who are born gay are PROUD of who they are and not ASHAMED. After all, they march in a Gay PRIDE Parade. You seem to be marching in a Gay SHAME Parade.

Or, perhaps, I just don't know what it is like to be gay.

And just in case I wasn’t clear enough. The feeling if “shame” gay people experience is from being exposed to people like you. Pride is a way of trying to make sure nobody has to go through that again.

 

[arkitect]

There are some really toxic people posting in this thread…

As a gay man, yes, married to the same man for 10 years and together 18+ this is soul destroying to read.

The propaganda angle. Good god! We are ordinary human beings trying desperately to get on with our lives.
We are decent, caring people. We pay our dues and taxes. We help our friends and neighbours.
We deal with the same **** as you straight people.

The only difference is that I am a man in love and sharing my life with another man…

But somehow apparently we are out there turning the youth to our "dark side", just by being true to our nature.

As I say… soul destroying to read some of the people on here's views.

Apologies if this doesn't make much sense and is just a rambling rant.
[doublepost=1530641937][/doublepost]

And just in case I wasn’t clear enough. The feeling if “shame” gay people experience is from being exposed to people like you. Pride is a way of trying to make sure nobody has to go through that again.

This is exactly right.

 

[sirozha]

My "inferiority complex" is brought about by people like you calling it a lifestyle and saying its wrong.
I was exposed to that from birth and it was you who said how impressionable children's brains are. Try unf****** 18 years of gaslighting.

You say my "choice" it's not my f******* choice. If it was my "choice" I'd have chosen the easy path.

You say "be who you want to be" yet you're saying cool gays are turning kids gay. Make your mind up.

That's the problem that you don't want to listen. You should be who you want to be. I do not discourage you from the gay lifestyle if you think you are gay by birth. All I'm asking is to be mindful of those who do not want their kids to go down the path you went. If you are happy to be gay, by all means, be gay. Find yourself a loving partner and be happy. I'm all in favor of it. Stop thinking that everyone is out to get you. However, me accepting your for who you are does not equal me wanting your lifestyle for my children.

This is going to be my last post on this. Obviously, no one is going to change anyone's mind here. Just to sum this up. I am accepting you for who you are. I support your rights to be who you are and to live openly the way you want to live. However, I do not embrace your lifestyle nor do I endorse it for as a *choice* for my children. If it becomes their lifestyle not by *choice* but by genetics, then I will embrace them for who they are.

Apparently, this approach is called "bigotry" at the end of the second decade of the 21st century.