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Apple CEO Tim Cook: 'I Don't Think a Four-Year Degree is Necessary to Be Proficient at Coding'

A 4 year degree doesn't teach you to code any more than it teaches you to write. A 4 year degree is a crash course in how to think-- setting aside a period of your life to learn what you could learn over a longer span if you had the interest and discipline and surrounded yourself with the right people.

Want to be fluent in Spanish? Fall in love with a Spaniard. Want to be fluent in C? Fall in love with a computer.

You don't need a Computer Science degree to code anymore than you need a Journalism degree to comment in these forums.
 
Analog Kid said:
A 4 year degree doesn't teach you to code any more than it teaches you to write. A 4 year degree is a crash course in how to think-- setting aside a period of your life to learn what you could learn over a longer span if you had the interest and discipline and surrounded yourself with the right people.
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You also learn a lot of theory at university.
 
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Yep, but there is more to software development than just slinging code. If you want to be a coder, you can do that, but you're not too likely to move up in management or do things like software architecture, without a degree.
 
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I have a BS in both Computer Science and Civil Engineering... I'm predominantly a freelance consultant and software developer (eh, engineer). There is a lot of value to the 4 year degrees, but not in terms of learning to code or to become proficient at coding. I was a self-taught programmer before I was in high school and then went off to college in the early '90s with naive dreams of working in the game industry and all that.

Many fundamental concepts that are taught in college degree programs for software development are as relevant today as when I learned them. And yet, many of those concepts were introduced to me before I got to the college level... The languages and tools have changed entirely and I've had to learn new languages and tools many times over since leaving college, since starting to program when I was kid, really... I can only imagine how much faster I would have learned in my early years if I had today's instructional resources at my fingertips. And I see this with my own kids. My son is 13 and is pretty fluent in Swift, C# and Python. He navigates Xcode as fast as I do. He's made lots of little iOS apps and widgets of his own and has recently fell in love with Unity. He intends to make a complete game in Unity this summer and publish it to the Apple and Android app stores.
 
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cube said:
You also learn a lot of theory at university.
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I don't think we disagree on that. University isn't the only way of learning theory, however.

If someone asked me, "how do I become a programmer", I'd say "start by going to college". If someone asked me "do I need to go to college to become a programmer", I'd say "no".
 
Analog Kid said:
I don't think we disagree on that. University isn't the only way of learning theory, however.

If someone asked me, "how do I become a programmer", I'd say "start by going to college". If someone asked me "do I need to go to college to become a programmer", I'd say "no".
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The right way to start is to learn how to program before going to college.
 
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JetTester said:
Yep, but there is more to software development than just slinging code. If you want to be a coder, you can do that, but you're not too likely to move up in management or do things like software architecture, without a degree.
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There's a definite bias in industry, in part because people value their own degrees, but there are some striking counter examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Ellison
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Dell
 
badatusernames said:
Then why does Apple still require a 4-year degree from all their software engineering jobs?
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To obtain a job at a company you may require the piece of paper to prove your knowledge or you can just code your own app and sell it on the AppStore without a piece of paper or be a business startup on your own or with other like minded individuals.

Similar to hackers, you can get the education to be a certified hacker, however it will not make you a good one. It is said that a good or great hacker does not require a piece of paper to prove their knowledge and skill in something their love doing. ;):p
 
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Lyoha said:
I'm a senior software engineer who dropped out of college after two semesters. Everything I know, I learned on the job and learned practically nothing from said college (albeit their program was worse than most). I dropped out because I was working overtime and my experience by then was more than enough to get employers' attention without a degree.
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We hired two ex bartenders who took an annex course in coding for iOS platforms. Got them cheap. They kick ass. Now they are not cheap, heh.
 
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rotlex said:
My biggest issue is how many people come to our company with a bachelors or even masters in info tech, and don't even have the basic skill sets to setup a router, switch or a server system let alone troubleshoot real world issues with them. You would think with student loan debt the size of my mortgage they would be able to at least do the most basic things without having to be trained.
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This... 1000X this. I could fill a sizable book with tales of IT ineptitude I've had to deal with.
 
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S
smaffei said:
Of course he doesn't. That's because Tim wants a cheaper labor pool. And, if the requirement is changed from a 4 year degree, the employers can eventually pay less.

That 4 years of Computer Science gave me the proper foundation to design / implement software (not just code).
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Sure he does and I'm not going to advocate for not going to school but let's put this into perspective. I'm pulling numbers out of my ass so feel free to argue with me.

Let's say a 4 year degree is 15K per year. 60K total.

You can get a job after that working for Apple coding and making 60K per year. But what if Apple offered you the same job with no degree for 40K and in 4 years you'd built up experience and with just COLA raises you're getting around 50K and hopefully a change to advance. Yes you've probably set an upper limit on how far you can go but you're also not burdened with 60K in debt which could run easily 700 per month in repayment for 10 years. That's 8400 a year out of your pocket or right back in line with what your "uneducated" counterpart might be making.

So yes, on the surface, cheap labor is good for Apple, but it might not be a terrible option for some people and could keep them from getting under crippling debt.

Even if it didn't work, having Apple on your resume could be as good as gold for anybody. Degree or not.
 
joueboy said:
One day these programmers will be like factory workers with the same salary. This is exactly what Tim and the rest of the tech industry are trying to do getting into cheap labor to increase profit.
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You buy cheap you get cheap , all part of days hard work.
 
Stella said:
In a 4 year degree course, you learn more about software development than just cranking out code.
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Sure. But you will learn infinitely more about software development with real world, on the job experience than you will ever learn in a class room. Especially in the area of software development, where techniques, processes and skills are changing way faster than any college or technical school can adapt and create a tailored curriculum.

If you are interested in being a coder, my advice to you (if you have no coding experience), is to spend as much time learning the ropes on your own, build a few projects and commit to some open source projects. After doing that, if you feel like it's a career you'd like to pursue, find a good boot camp course that you can afford that prioritizes placement after completion. That's the best path for developer today.

College has it's place. You make life long connections, you learn valuable skills and it indeed sets you up for success in most cases. But for a developer, it's not necessary and in many ways it will slow you down.
 
Bearing by the quality of Apple's latest apps I'm sure you don't Tim.
 
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eternlgladiator said:
S


Sure he does and I'm not going to advocate for not going to school but let's put this into perspective. I'm pulling numbers out of my ass so feel free to argue with me.

Let's say a 4 year degree is 15K per year. 60K total.

You can get a job after that working for Apple coding and making 60K per year. But what if Apple offered you the same job with no degree for 40K and in 4 years you'd built up experience and with just COLA raises you're getting around 50K and hopefully a change to advance. Yes you've probably set an upper limit on how far you can go but you're also not burdened with 60K in debt which could run easily 700 per month in repayment for 10 years. That's 8400 a year out of your pocket or right back in line with what your "uneducated" counterpart might be making.

So yes, on the surface, cheap labor is good for Apple, but it might not be a terrible option for some people and could keep them from getting under crippling debt.

Even if it didn't work, having Apple on your resume could be as good as gold for anybody. Degree or not.
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I don’t know about coding but I remember a guy who told me he started as a technician and became a nondegreed engineer at that company but when he had to change employers he went back down to technician level.
 
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I’ve been through university to get a computing degree.

A degree course will teach you the fundamentals. Of course a job will give you more experience but the degree will help you be prepared.

That is why Coop terms are so useful, in addition to classroom / lecture time, so you get hands on experience of the real world. Also a company that you've coop'ed with may recruit you after your degree, if they like you.





sobossme said:
Sure. But you will learn infinitely more about software development with real world, on the job experience than you will ever learn in a class room. Especially in the area of software development, where techniques, processes and skills are changing way faster than any college or technical school can adapt and create a tailored curriculum.

If you are interested in being a coder, my advice to you (if you have no coding experience), is to spend as much time learning the ropes on your own, build a few projects and commit to some open source projects. After doing that, if you feel like it's a career you'd like to pursue, find a good boot camp course that you can afford that prioritizes placement after completion. That's the best path for developer today.

College has it's place. You make life long connections, you learn valuable skills and it indeed sets you up for success in most cases. But for a developer, it's not necessary and in many ways it will slow you down.
Click to expand...
 
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code-m said:
To obtain a job at a company you may require the piece of paper to prove your knowledge or you can just code your own app and sell it on the AppStore without a piece of paper or be a business startup on your own or with other like minded individuals.

Similar to hackers, you can get the education to be a certified hacker, however it will not make you a good one. It is said that a good or great hacker does not require a piece of paper to prove their knowledge and skill in something their love doing. ;):p
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Thats true. Which is why I believe it should be a 4-year degree or equivalent express. I believe if you can show your work such as a high quality app on the App Store, open source contributions you should be given a chance and not denied just because you don't have a degree.
 
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