Apple CEO Tim Cook: 'I Don't Think a Four-Year Degree is Necessary to Be Proficient at Coding'

[Stella]

Sure, anyone can learn to code, publish an app to the AppStore. You absolutely don’t need a degree to do this.

Moving forward: Being a software developer, as a career, is more than just writing code. Having a degree, as others have mentioned makes it easier to find employment. As I said previously, you’ll also have a fundamental knowledge of software development - something you probably won’t get just by writing iOS apps, and something employers also like to see.

The thing is you can simply go to youtube and learn to code. As I said college is good if you want to specialize in other things as well. As others have said you learn to code by coding. Some people need that classroom environment to push them to open the book to page one.

 

[BGPL]

If you want to understand how the coding affects other parts of the application, and the business goals, then you need education. Also, more sophisticated coding requires advanced mathematics. I wouldn't agree with this statement of Tim's at all.

For making a little game in the app store, it may be true. To work in an enterprise environment, writing code for a fortune 100 company, you absolutely need a college education. One can learn to build a widget that is a small part of an automobile, but you have to understand how the automobile works and the manufacturing process before your widget will be useful the manufacturers.

 

[Coconut Bean]

People vastly misunderstood the meaning of Tim's statement.

He means that for like 75% of the programming gigs a degree is overqualification.

Examples, bootstrap websites all they long, migrate not too complex code, extend basic functionality, basic sys admin... Etc. There are tons of mundane IT jobs that someone can learn in a few weeks of training.

To draw a parallel he is basically saying that not everyone have to go to a fancy chef school for working at McDonald's.

 

[kemal]

Tim Apple just want to pay less for coders because Apple no longer need top notch coders.

 

[macduke]

I knew I shouldn't have gone to college, lol. Nobody has ever asked to look at my diploma. They always want to look at my portfolio. It's like the actual things I do are more important than the things someone says I can do. What a concept! That being said, I think my portfolio is stronger because of college and I have better critical thinking skills. Not sure if that's worth the price of admission or not, but either way I'm a better person for it.

 

[drumcat]

I'll believe that when Apple makes it a regularity where they start hiring non-bachelor'd coders.

 

[dogslobber]

In a 4 year degree course, you learn more about software development than just cranking out code.

This x100. I don’t bother explaining the breadth and depth of computing topics you gain from a Computer Science degree to non-CS folks. They just don’t get it.

 

[Coconut Bean]

This x100. I don’t bother explaining the breadth and depth of computing topics you gain from a Computer Science degree to non-CS folks. They just don’t get it.

But coding = three hours of YouTube videos of html + CSS with a little javascript

Just as coding website = WordPress

 

[Rrutter81]

Well he is correct.

/150k a year with a GED doing UI Engineering for 20 years.

Yeah. I interview college grads. That piece of paper can be hot garbage these days. I've seen bachelors in CS who just ESPN all day. If you found value wasting 4 years for whatever knowledge you attained, I'll find you a 10 minute youtube video on data structures and algorithms that are just as well known if not easier to grasp.

Now if you want a coder you can always go to India for that kinda thing. Your mileage will vary though.

 

[pweicks]

I don’t think a four year degree is necessary to be proficient at anything, although there are a select few professions that I would strongly recommend it for.

 

[JosephAW]

Was writing assembly code back in high school and making games, dtp and paint programs on my Atari. Didn't need to study coding, and assembly was much more complicated than C++ today.

 

[Rrutter81]

If you want to understand how the coding affects other parts of the application, and the business goals, then you need education. Also, more sophisticated coding requires advanced mathematics. I wouldn't agree with this statement of Tim's at all.

For making a little game in the app store, it may be true. To work in an enterprise environment, writing code for a fortune 100 company, you absolutely need a college education. One can learn to build a widget that is a small part of an automobile, but you have to understand how the automobile works and the manufacturing process before your widget will be useful the manufacturers.

Worked for at&t, Bloomberg, omnicom, general motors, Ericsson, and places I am not allowed to tell you.

I have a GED so your comment is false.

 

[morphineseason]

So what he's really saying is that four years isn't long enough, and we should be spending twelve years learning it in grades 1-12. EZ

 

[VictorTango777]

People vastly misunderstood the meaning of Tim's statement.

He means that for like 75% of the programming gigs a degree is overqualification.

Examples, bootstrap websites all they long, migrate not too complex code, extend basic functionality, basic sys admin... Etc. There are tons of mundane IT jobs that someone can learn in a few weeks of training.

To draw a parallel he is basically saying that not everyone have to go to a fancy chef school for working at McDonald's.

The reason for these postings is when employers like McDonalds or even Apple themselves list "fancy chef school" in their job requirements, despite what Tim says.

 

[ElectricPotato]

One day these programmers will be like factory workers with the same salary. This is exactly what Tim and the rest of the tech industry are trying to do getting into cheap labor to increase profit.

I think a goal is enabling people who do not specialize in technology to do what previously required a specialist. There was a TED talk describing something similar: makers in other fields decide on the best application of tech for their field, not by consulting someone else, but by knowing enough to apply it themselves.

 

[Vjosullivan]

So Tim is saying that I wasted four years of my life going to college?

No. He’s saying unqualified people are cheaper.
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A lot of snide comments from people who seem to be miffed that 12 year olds will have the same knowledge base out of high school as they have after college and a big student loan.

Tim isn't saying college is a thing of the past. He is simply stating that in a few years the average high school grad will be proficient in code. However they will still attend university to gain skills that set them apart from the rest.

Did he actually say that? I can’t see where he did.

 

[routine_analyst]

Apple CEO Tim Cook, left, and WWDC 2019 scholar Liam Rosenfeld via TechCrunch​

The kid next to Tim Cook looks like Tim Cook's kid. Same smile, nose, face shape, posture, haircut, skin tone ...........

 

[sirozha]

Is is a generation-long argument. Is it better to learn how to code in a college or on your own? I went to college in the late 1980s, and there were a few kids who dropped out after the first few semesters and went to work for fledging software companies. Initially, they did better than those who stayed in college. In fact, most of those who stayed in college didn't end up being programmers. However, my degree was not just in programming but also in applied math. Some of those who graduated, became engineers (most did not). Those who dropped out, continued to code, but they didn't take advanced college-level math courses (I took over 50 of them), so they couldn't do the stuff that those who graduated could. There were also courses in computer architecture that those who dropped out missed out on.

As for coding itself, one can learn it without going to college, for sure. If you only go to college to learn how to code, you don't have to do it. But, to do something more than just coding, one should definitely get an engineering degree.

In the near future, people of various occupations will able to code to automate their work; this is actually already happening in the workplace. Employers now encourage people to learn how to code to automate their daily tasks. In the next ten years, microbiologists will be able to code; chemists will be able to code; physicists will be able to code; mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, manufacturing engineers, nuclear scientists, automative engineers, etc. will be able to code. The list goes on. Coding tomorrow will be like typing is today.

Before personal computes became a commodity, there was an occupation called "typist". Those were people who could touch-type fast, so their "skills" were being used by people working in all sorts of industries. In the 1980s, secondary schools in the US started teaching typing (first using electronic typewriters and then using computers). Nowadays, typing is not an occupation anymore but a skill that most people possess. Coding tomorrow is like touch-typing today. Most people will be able to code, so coding will not be an occupation anymore. It will be a skill that most professions will possess, and the coding skill will help professionals become much more productive in what they do, just like touch-typing today helps us be much more productive than having to dictate to a typist a letter or a memo.

 

[Analog Kid]

When other countries around the world tell their kids how important it is to finish college and get advanced degree, we in the US keep deemphasing education and have industry role models telling kids it’s not important. Look at this “coder”, look at this president, look at this founder of a great company.

A genius does not necessarily need to have a college degree but for the rest of us, it helps to have a more well rounded education to tackle the real world.

I agree with this sentiment. There's two sides to this coin-- on the one side, education is critically important, but on the other side limiting opportunity only to the college educated destroys potential.

Bust your ass and accumulate all the knowledge and experience you can get your head around. College can give you a head start on that process, but it's not the only way.

 

[neutralguy]

Of course he doesn't. That's because Tim wants a cheaper labor pool. And, if the requirement is changed from a 4 year degree, the employers can eventually pay less.

That 4 years of Computer Science gave me the proper foundation to design / implement software (not just code).

You are so right. This type of false expectation spread by Tim Cook is dangerous for software engineering future. Coding is a commodity. Any damn person can write a code as long as somebody tells them the algorithm or the design and they can learn the language/syntax through a book or online. What we need is more software engineers who can think and design software. And that's what one gets by going to 4 year college!

 

[ryanwarsaw]

No. He’s saying unqualified people are cheaper.
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Did he actually say that? I can’t see where he did.

Sometimes you have to skate to where the puck is going.
[doublepost=1557532937][/doublepost]

Sure, anyone can learn to code, publish an app to the AppStore. You absolutely don’t need a degree to do this.

Moving forward: Being a software developer, as a career, is more than just writing code. Having a degree, as others have mentioned makes it easier to find employment. As I said previously, you’ll also have a fundamental knowledge of software development - something you probably won’t get just by writing iOS apps, and something employers also like to see.

Some people have that gift with out a college degree. Sure I get your point that it can be helpful to have one. However the younger generation are going to come out of high school with the coding skills already in place. You can't tell me that if children are taught code at the same level as math or science right from the gate they won't excel.

I think coding won't be taught in college but engineering and team leadership will. Those people that can only code will not excel.

 

[sirozha]

Sometimes you have to skate to where the puck is going.
[doublepost=1557532937][/doublepost]

Some people have that gift with out a college degree. Sure I get your point that it can be helpful to have one. However the younger generation are going to come out of high school with the coding skills already in place. You can't tell me that if children are taught code at the same level as math or science right from the gate they won't excel.

I think coding won't be taught in college but engineering and team leadership will. Those people that can only code will not excel.

Coding will be a skill like touch-typing is today. No one will hire you if you are a coder in 20-25 years just like no one hires you if you know how to type anymore because everyone knows how to type. However, 40 years ago, touch-typing was a very marketable skill. Employers soon will be asking you what you can actually do besides being able to automate someone else's work.

Unfortunately, Tim Cook has no clue about anything high-tech, including coding. He is a dinosaur who only knows how to exploit cheap labor. That's about it.

 

[Fukui]

Coding is not programming.

it’s also not engineering

coder → app burger flipper
engineer → gets to work at apple

 

[ryanwarsaw]

Coding will be a skill like touch-typing is today. No one will hire you if you are a coder in 20-25 years just like no one hires you if you know how to type anymore because everyone knows how to type. However, 40 years ago, touch-typing was a very marketable skill. Employers soon will be asking you what you can actually do besides being able to automate someone else's work.

Unfortunately, Tim Cook has no clue about anything high-tech, including coding. He is a dinosaur who only knows how to exploit cheap labor. That's about it.

It will be many years less. The current kids in elementary school are as good as what's out there now. The time frame will be ten years.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Of course he doesn't. That's because Tim wants a cheaper labor pool. And, if the requirement is changed from a 4 year degree, the employers can eventually pay less.

That 4 years of Computer Science gave me the proper foundation to design / implement software (not just code).

There has never been a requirement for a four year degree, at least in the US. Employers can hire whomever they wish. Many use skills testing to weed out those who would probably have difficulty performing well in their environment. Plenty of those who fall out have a four-year CS degree. Others without any degree kill it.

I’m not anti-education by any means, and formal education is the right path for some (but not all). And obviously a four-year degree is a prerequisite for those who wish to further their education with an MS or PhD, which will open doors to certain positions that would be unavailable, at many companies, to those lacking advanced degrees.