Apple CEO Tim Cook Testifies in Epic Games v. Apple Trial

[I7guy]

"Customers don't buy operating systems, they buy devices," said Cook,

Strange. iPhone fans usually state they buy the phone for iOS as they don't want Android.

What's strange? The "iphone fans", that unbounded, indeterminate, universe of people, into the hundreds of millions, are saying the same thing as Cook -- Iphone and ios are one and the same. There is no separation, no distinction. Apple wants it that way.

 

[I7guy]

I’ve never heard of anyone being allowed to testify for a fixed amount of time just because he’s a busy man.

I would think it's pretty much standard, operating procedures. At least I remember reading about things like this.

 

[smulji]

"Cook says that third-party app stores would be "terrible for the user."

No Timmy. It would be terrible for YOU, not the consumer. It would mean more choice (something Apple has never believed in) for the end user. It would be the end of your extortionate cash cow 30% absurdness. It would be the end of the stranglehold you currently have over users and companies.

Your fearmongering isn't stopping the backlash wave rolling into the App Store

There are 1 billion iPhone users. If they all passionately cared about 3rd party app stores like you claim & felt they were being harmed by Apple not allowing it, they would have jumped ship already to Android.

 

[I7guy]

"Cook says that third-party app stores would be "terrible for the user."

No Timmy. It would be terrible for YOU, not the consumer. It would mean more choice (something Apple has never believed in) for the end user. It would be the end of your extortionate cash cow 30% absurdness. It would be the end of the stranglehold you currently have over users and companies.

Your fearmongering isn't stopping the backlash wave rolling into the App Store

Could be more of a gentle wave. Nobody knows how this ultimately will turn out. And if it doesn't turn into Apple's favor they can always appeal. It's going to take some time for the judge to render a verdict anyway. Hard questions can be asked, but this still can turn in Apples' favor.

 

[WiseAJ]

Why can't Apple just treat Epic Games the same as they treat Uber? Apple allows some developers to do in-app signup to their own payment services. Apple wouldn't have to do anything but change their policy. It wouldn't require any additional work on their part at all.

Uber provides a physical real world service whereas Epic's is pure digital/virtual. Apple app store rules have always been digital goods and services are required to use IAP while physical goods/services are ineligible to use IAP.

 

[Mal Blackadder]

Steam exists on macOS. Could someone explain to me how the existence of Steam has negatively impacted macOS users?

I totally agree with you. I Said on a thread yesterday that for the Mac I could buy photoshop shop elements cheaper on Amazon than the Mac App store and doing that would in no way compromise the security of Mac OS, but we are expected to believe that having the ability to that on iOS would be bad for security, bad for Tims pension plan more like.

 

[goonie4life9]

I would. No way a museum can curate millions of items. Not enough employees. Remember Apple spends 6 minutes checking out each app...sorry I meant "curating".

Apple is just very cleverly playing with words.

So a museum choosing to show some pieces and not others isn’t curation? A quick perusal of the largest museums in the world shows several have over 1 million items: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_art_museums

 

[gregmancuso]

lol profit, you can't make profit if you resell it on the bay or local sites.
That's always a money loss, and you would also have to rebuy apps and games that you already own.
It's all build up to trap and lockin, just like they stated in the emails which went public.

Repurchasing apps? What does that have to do with the ability to switch? If I am a Windows user switching to Mac I have to rebuy my apps (or get comparable native apps). If I am a Mac user switching to Windows I have rebuy all my apps (or get comparable native apps). If I am an Android user switching to iOS I have to rebuy my apps (or get comparable native apps). If I am an Xbox gamer switching to PS5 I have to rebuy my games (or get comparable native games).

Notice a theme here? To call the fact that iOS has native apps that would require an outlay of funds to switch is no different than any other platform. Either all platforms are locked in, or none are. The fact that "all are" may be true and "none are" may be true makes the point moot.

With the cost of apps no longer of issue, the fact is that iPhones have better resale years past their sale date. Switching from iPhone to most any Android phone would cost less than moving to iPhone.

 

[goonie4life9]

That sounds more like an archive.

I would think of the word curated if they took items out of archive and had a curated display.

Right, which makes it curated - some items are selected, others aren’t. This is exactly what Apple does with the App Store. The point is the lawyer’s argument was simply false - the size of a collection has no bearing on whether the collection is curated.

 

[britboyj]

Good lord the pro-Apple bias here is predictable but insane. Cook didn't have basic answers to some VERY basic questions about the App Store business. He's either playing dumb, or is missing major information about his own business.

Go look at coverage outside MacRumors. The Judge is 100% not buying Apple's arguments most of the time. Epic have made a MUCH stronger case than you'd think from reading the MR summaries.

 

[kmann1983]

"The judge went on to cite a study that showed 39 percent of developers are dissatisfied with the App Store. "It doesn't seem like you have competition or feel much incentive to work for developers or to change the way that you act to address the concerns of developers," said Judge Rogers."

Ding, ding, ding. Much like how they treated the Kindle app. If someone makes Cook, or Jobs back in the day, a little upset.. they fire off stupid rules -- much like how the Kindle App is now.

Apple has abused this in the past. No reason to think they haven't secretly done it more or won't do it more in the future.

"iMessage's platform exclusivity has been brought up several times during the trial, and Cook was asked about the difficulty of leaving iMessage. Cook said it's a "really good feature" but it doesn't prevent people from going to Android."

BS. I know plenty of people who have had tremendous issues going back to Android because Apple couldn't resolve iMessage issues on their side and so messages were sent to oblivion. This, alone, is why I hope Cook ends up getting grilled over.

Although modern countries don't use iMessage or SMS for that matter so...

 

[Realityck]

here is a good summery of Fridays court session with Tim Cook

Apple CEO faces tough questioning as Epic Games trial wraps up - ARS Technica 5/21/21

Apple and Epic have now both rested their cases, concluding the evidentiary portion of the trial. Closing arguments are scheduled to be presented on Monday, after which Judge Rogers says she will "take some time" to review the evidence and perform a legal analysis before issuing a written ruling "hopefully before August 13."

 

[hans1972]

Someone tell me why Ben Thompson is wrong.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1395778023580831745

Without Apple there would be no phone, no operating system, no developer tools for the phone, no way to distribute the app to the user etc.

The developers are paying for access to customers first and foremost.

Where Ben Thompson is wrong is that he thinks someone has to deserve revenue or that there must be a strong correlation between work and revenue.

 

[hans1972]

Why can't Apple just treat Epic Games the same as they treat Uber? Apple allows some developers to do in-app signup to their own payment services. Apple wouldn't have to do anything but change their policy. It wouldn't require any additional work on their part at all.

They want to make money on their IP.

Why can't Epic treat Apple the same as they treat Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo?

 

[smulji]

"iMessage's platform exclusivity has been brought up several times during the trial, and Cook was asked about the difficulty of leaving iMessage. Cook said it's a "really good feature" but it doesn't prevent people from going to Android."

He's 100% right about this. Nothing incorrect about what he said.

 

[hans1972]

"Cook says that third-party app stores would be "terrible for the user."

No Timmy. It would be terrible for YOU, not the consumer. It would mean more choice (something Apple has never believed in) for the end user. It would be the end of your extortionate cash cow 30% absurdness. It would be the end of the stranglehold you currently have over users and companies.

Your fearmongering isn't stopping the backlash wave rolling into the App Store

We don't want choice. When a single store contains 1.8 millions apps, there is enough choice in the store.

We also want one store for everything. We want to only deal with one party when it comes to complaints, getting refund, giving out card info etc.

 

[Rogifan]

No they don’t. ISPs & cell providers are classified as utilities, Apple’s App Store is not. It’s a digital retail outlet. Companies & individuals already pay ISP’s & cell providers, on a recurring basis, for use of their infrastructure. Just like App developers have to pay Apple to be in the App Store, an infrastructure & ecosystem that Apple invested billions into in order to make it easy & convenient for developers & consumers to engage in a transaction.

And what about when I give Apple $1000 for an iPhone?

 

[Rogifan]

Uber provides a physical real world service whereas Epic's is pure digital/virtual. Apple app store rules have always been digital goods and services are required to use IAP while physical goods/services are ineligible to use IAP.

Uber provides a service, not a physical good. I guarantee you if Apple thought they could get away with taking 30% of Uber and Lyft charges they would.

 

[Rogifan]

Without Apple there would be no phone, no operating system, no developer tools for the phone, no way to distribute the app to the user etc.

The developers are paying for access to customers first and foremost.

Where Ben Thompson is wrong is that he thinks someone has to deserve revenue or that there must be a strong correlation between work and revenue.

So does Microsoft deserve 30% of every app developed for Windows? Why does Apple allow people to by/download apps outside of the Mac App Store (where they then don’t get a cut).

 

[mrat93]

Like jailbraking? Get an Android, oh you already have one, never mind. Other than that there is app for that

i… what point are you trying to make right now?

Weird assumption, I have an iPhone. You're allowed to use a device and sometimes be critical of it, you know?

lol they did the same for me. been an iphone user since day one but go off i guess.

 

[Cigsm]

I totally agree with you. I Said on a thread yesterday that for the Mac I could buy photoshop shop elements cheaper on Amazon than the Mac App store and doing that would in no way compromise the security of Mac OS, but we are expected to believe that having the ability to that on iOS would be bad for security, bad for Tims pension plan more like.

It’s not Adobe that would give you malware.

 

[Cigsm]

And what about when I give Apple $1000 for an iPhone?

You’re giving Apple money for a phone knowing what that phone can and can’t do. You don’t get to determine they change their business model and security protocols because you gave them $1000. You get to Vote with your wallet.

 

[DekuBleep]

Wow Tim Cook is super smooth. And he really understands Apple.

 

[vladi]

The analogy is spot on contrary to your assertion otherwise. Cook isn't comparing the iPhone to Best Buy he's comparing the App "STORE" to a Best Buy "STORE". The fact that one is a digital marketplace and the other is brick and mortar is irrelevant. All the rules and consumer laws that apply to selling goods in a brick and mortar STORE apply to the App STORE.

You can buy a copy of WoW at a Gamestop or you can buy the digital version directly from Blizzard. They are the same thing despite one being brought in a brick and mortar store and the other online. And guess what, Gamestop can't be forced to lose out on sales by being required to put a sign up telling customers they can purchase the game directly from Blizzard which is what Epic wants Apple to do.

Additionally, I have never subscribed or played any online multiplayer game where I didn't have to provide a valid email address. There is absolutely nothing stopping Epic, or any other developer, from sending promotional emails to subscribers to suggest they renew their subscription directly on Epic's website. The only prohibition is that they can't do that promotion within the App Store itself. Which begs the question what type of lousy marketing department does Epic really have that they can't convince the majority of iOS players to renew subscriptions / make in game purchases directly from their website.

Epic wants all the benefits of the App Store not only for free but without having to do the basic work any reasonable company would do to promote direct purchases.

It's not the same as buying online or in brick and mortar store. Physical stores have to pay for most of their inventory in order to resell it. Good luck to Best Buy telling Sony TV supplier you know we are just going to take thousands of these and thousands of those to put them in our stores and we will pay you when we sell them or if we sell them. Gamestop most likely still has to pay for physical copies of the games in order to sell them, that's how it used to be back in the day.

 

[smulji]

And what about when I give Apple $1000 for an iPhone?

Then you get an iPhone. And that money goes to fuelling hardware enhancements to future iPhones. The 30% fees that the developer pays goes to fuelling the building and upkeep of the App Store and services surrounding that. The iPhone and App Store, although integrated are two different things. Paying for an iPhone doesn't automatically mean the apps / services are free.