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It seems like a lot of people on this forum needs to understand that Europe does not equal EU, and vice versa.

Also, there are no "states" in the EU or Europe. There are sovereign countries. And within the countries are states, regions and municipalities.

I'm glad my country (Norway), that is in Europe, is not a member of the EU (which has turned into a pile of corrupt and over-administrative crap).
 
It looks like people have forgotten why Ireland got sued. The problem here was that Ireland illegally lowered tax for Apple (compared to other businesses in Ireland). So, Apple did not pay even the proper [low] Ireland taxes.
 
Sorry but this is nonsense. In what way are "the rest of the EU" paying for those avoided taxes? The likes of France and Germany (under the guise of the EU in this case) are perfectly at liberty to alter their own corporation tax rates and offer other incentives to attract corporate clients to their respective countries. Instead they're whining and bringing this legal challenge indirectly against one of their own member states.

Don't get me wrong. Is what Apple (along with Amazon etc) were/are doing to avoid taxes morally repugnant? Absolutely. But what "the EU" is attempting here, and in doing so arrogantly overstepping their powers, is no less shameful.


To be consistent, you taking those tax deductions you legally took to avoid paying more in taxes was also "morally repugnant" right?
 
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Did I say it’s Apples fault?

I mean not directly but that’s exactly how this comment reads.

I don’t care what Apple claims...
This company charges an extra $200 for every iPhone sold in Europe, let alone the more expansive Macs.

Now it’s payback time! :D

It’s the internet so I’m sure you will argue you weren’t apportioning blame to Apple.
 
It looks like people have forgotten why Ireland got sued. The problem here was that Ireland illegally lowered tax for Apple (compared to other businesses in Ireland). So, Apple did not pay even the proper [low] Ireland taxes.

First, Ireland did not get "sued." The EU ruled that Ireland's tax breaks for Apple violated EU's laws. Second, as Ireland has attested, Apple paid exactly what they owed to Ireland under their laws.
 
To be consistent, you taking those tax deductions you legally took to avoid paying more in taxes was also "morally repugnant" right?
There is no moral equivalency here. If he claimed his salary as a tax exempt income then this would be repugnant. But the tax laws are not as flexible for individuals as hey are for corporations.
 
"Germany, France and the UK are significant net contributors to the EU, that is they pay far more in than they get out. Ireland is a significant net beneficiary (like Greece, Spain etc). When Ireland does not collect the right amount of tax (to lay their way) then by implication the rest of Europe is paying."

Need to rethink that logic. That's not how it works. While Ireland still has any sovereignty, the money that Ireland collects in taxes from Apple goes to Ireland, not the rest of the EU. That's why Apple has paid the money into Ireland's account, not the EU's. If your logic was correct, the rest of the EU would now be $13 Billion dollars richer, not the Irish people.
 
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The issue is not VAT but Commercial/Corporate tax. VAT is payed buy the consumer while Commercial/Corporate Tax is payed by the supplier according to sales and profits. The Germans and the French want to compete with commercial tax conditions against countries like Ireland, Greece, Portugal and others for businesses of the size of Apple. They cannot at the moment. As much as these countries cannot compete with the French and German agricultural fields and mining / industrial capacity due to the nature of the land.

They are upset with this deal. They want it all.
Well, it looks like you're unhappy with those countries that are part of the European project from the beginning. The European Union is not only a market, it is also a political project, including a part of fairness. It looks like small countries want everything : subsidies from the EU, help when they turn broke, low interest rate to fund their debt, and competitive tax rates.
Moreover, those big companies are organizing themselves to avoid local tax.
 
It looks like people have forgotten why Ireland got sued. The problem here was that Ireland illegally lowered tax for Apple (compared to other businesses in Ireland). So, Apple did not pay even the proper [low] Ireland taxes.

This is false and incorrect. Ireland did not lower Apple's tax rates. Apple paid an effective lower tax rate due to LEGAL tax minimization and LEGAL tax avoidance efforts. On your personal tax return, would you not take a legal deduction or credit to lower the amount of taxes you pay? Of course you would! Apple did nothing wrong here. There are so many US corporations who do this. Apple is getting scrutinized because they are the cash cow and everyone wants some of their money!

Tax avoidance does NOT equal tax evasion.
 
Apple should pay its fair share of tax in any part of the world that it operates. These tax minimization schemes are a disgrace.

I think the whole point is that Apple are arguing that it does pay its fair share of tax in any part of the world where it operates? This is a legal matter, not a moral one. Nobody pays more tax than they are legally obliged to unless they’re stupid.
 
As an European I totally agree with Apple assessment. One of the ways small European countries have to compete and attract mass scale businesses such as the ones of Apple, against big countries like Germany and France is by negotiating better tax conditions.

Considering the small dimensions and population of these countries versus the massive scale of these companies businesses they can at a lower tax, supply financially their needs lawfully.

Of course the German, the French and the soon to leave the British, don’t like this. Their view is anti competitive. They want to have the advantages of being geographically big and large populations as well as tax advantages. They have cooked the European competition laws to their advantage but the issue of sovereignty has kept them from touching local / country tax laws. If they see this through they will be able to do whatever with local tax laws, and cook them to their advantage.

This is as ridiculous as small countries advocating that it’s unfair for them to be geographically small or not as well positioned in the flux of businesses in the map.

Mind you that all the loans given to smaller countries at better rates were for their development in exchange of commercial and production quotas towards the larger countries with plenty of agricultural fields and industrial capacity. So the lunch was not at all free. The all thing culminated with the Greek incident with the German suggestion for them to sell Islands in order to pay their dept.

Cheers.

It really is not fair.

If Apple makes most of its money from the UK (Apple's biggest European market) then pays its tax in RI then Irish citizens are essentially getting British taxes.

Fortunately with the UK leaving many companies will have to start paying their taxes in the UK once again.
These small countries get massive perks from being in a union with much larger and more powerful countries. Think who is really paying for the defense of Luxembourg for example, or small countries making use of the infrastructure and capabilities of bigger countries. The fact they can manipulate the tax laws like they do is unfair. You make your money in X country you pay your taxes in X country.

Wife does international tax and estate planning so she understands this far better than I do.
 
This is false and incorrect. Ireland did not lower Apple's tax rates. Apple paid an effective lower tax rate due to LEGAL tax minimization and LEGAL tax avoidance efforts. On your personal tax return, would you not take a legal deduction or credit to lower the amount of taxes you pay? Of course you would! Apple did nothing wrong here. There are so many US corporations who do this. Apple is getting scrutinized because they are the cash cow and everyone wants some of their money!

Tax avoidance does NOT equal tax evasion.
People don't understand the distinction. Following the laws and exhausting all options makes you smart, not criminal. Apple has a fiduciary responsibility to maximize any and all LEGAL tax optimization practices.
 
Apple follows the law and is also the biggest tax payer.
Being the biggest tax payer does not prove apple paid it's fair share. That type of logic is nonsense.
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There is no scheme. The laws were done this way as tax is one of the tools a country has to control their finances And attract businesses as they need. That is all the Irish did.
The Irish are part of the EU. Apple has to follow the laws of the EU as well.
 
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Being the biggest tax payer does not prove apple paid it's fair share. That type of logic is nonsense.
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The Irish are part of the EU. Apple has to follow the laws of the EU as well.
No one said that was the logic. The logic is Apple follows all tax law AND so happens to be the largest taxpayer. Apple pays their tax bills and does nothing nefarious to circumvent them. Every public company has a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to optimize tax.

Don't like the law? Call you congressman.
 
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It really is not fair.

If Apple makes most of its money from the UK (Apple's biggest European market) then pays its tax in RI then Irish citizens are essentially getting British taxes.

Fortunately with the UK leaving many companies will have to start paying their taxes in the UK once again.
These small countries get massive perks from being in a union with much larger and more powerful countries. Think who is really paying for the defense of Luxembourg for example, or small countries making use of the infrastructure and capabilities of bigger countries. The fact they can manipulate the tax laws like they do is unfair. You make your money in X country you pay your taxes in X country.

Wife does international tax and estate planning so she understands this far better than I do.

We can all argue "what is right" and "what is wrong" all day. The point here is that Apple followed the law and paid all taxes it was legally required to under the law. Anything else is just conjecture and everyone's own notions of what fairness is.
 
Also, there are no "states" in the EU or Europe. There are sovereign countries. And within the countries are states, regions and municipalities.

"State" and "country" are often interchangeable. The EU frequently calls its members "states" (see the Treaty of the European Union), while in other places it uses "countries" (seems more popular on the websites right now, but even there is the occasional "states").
 
Apple should pay its fair share of tax in any part of the world that it operates. These tax minimization schemes are a disgrace.

Tax on Apple is tax on us you fool! Apple’s gross margin is fixed for most products. For example, 38% on iPhone.
 
No one said that was the logic. The logic is Apple follows all tax law AND so happens to be the largest taxpayer. Apple pays their tax bills and does nothing nefarious to circumvent them. Every public company has a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to optimize tax.

Don't like the law? Call you congressman.

If you don't like the court case apple is in, you should call your congressman. Please explain how apple pays the most taxes in Ireland but has zero apple retail stores in Ireland. Where are these sales coming from?
 
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If you don't like the court case apple is in, you should call your congressman.
I like it fine. Governments waste everyone's time frequently.

Apple is prepared either way. I happen to think they will win, but the case is inconsequential to Apple's financials. You see, Apple is loaded.
 
Apple has also said nearly all of its research and development takes place in the United States, so that is where the company should and does pay the majority of its taxes.

LOL Hahaha. Maybe this is why Elon Musk wants to go to Mars. Nobody owns Mars so no taxes. Apple should have made a ship instead of a spaceship, and travel international waters...which nobody owns so no taxes.

But seriously. Shell et all are waiting for the outcome, because that would be something...no taxes!
 
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