Apple Comments on Microsoft's Laptop Hunter Ads

[3282868]

Tolerance to abundance of choices is individual and one luddite's book isn't going to change that. And nobody (not even Barry) is going to suffer a brain meltdown if Apple were to introduce one or two more models. That's the perspective we're talking about here. If Apple is concerned about offering too many items to choose from, they should immediately limit the iTunes Store to three music albums and three iPhone applications, and scrap all iPod Nano color options except silver.

Yet we're comparing the multitude of hardware profiles available to consumers in the Windows OS marketplace. Dell, HP, Compaq, Sony, NVidia, Intel, AMD, SoundBlaster, RealTEK, Panasonic, NEC, ASUS, Gateway, Acer, Samsung, LG - the list goes on and on. That's just in brand names, then we get into DDR2, DDR3, EEC, processors, dual core, coreduo, quad core, bus caches, hard drive, flash/solid state drives, RPM's, blu-ray, DL, -RW, +RW, pixels, gigabytes, gigabits, megabytes, screen resolutions, LCD, LED, OLED, high definition, DPI, USB 2.0, 2.1, SATA, Optical, and on and on and on.

Throw some of those terms at the average consumer who is looking to purchase a system that meets their needs. Watch their heads spin.

Then take them to an Apple store. Show them what it does, how it does it, let them use it. That is all that is needed, a simple system, that works with little extra time and effort needed by the consumer. Please, don't tell me that Windows needs less time. WE are not the general consumer, WE know how to fix things on our own. MOST DO NOT.

Now, enough of this already. Most consumers don't care about all the specs being judged and nitpicked by us IT geeks on Macrumors. MOST DON'T CARE. They want a good system that fits their needs. It may me a Windows OS system, it may be an OS X based system. WHO BLOODY CARES? That's a free market, it doesn't matter, so preaching to people who don't give a bloody hell about you liking Windows on a Mac forum don't care. On a Saturday night even. Lord, give it a rest already, it's been fought over and over and over and over and over. Even with the usual people in this current discussion, it gets NO WHERE. It's as though people just want to fight in order to fill an empty whole in their existence. Go volunteer then, help feed the homeless, enough with this "my system is better and cheaper than yours!" "Well, mine doesn't crash or need antivirus" "Oh yeah, well, mine can handle any game I throw at it" "oh yeah, well mine is prettier and doesn't need to be rebooted every five minutes". For god's sakes,, whip it out already and get it over with.

AAARRRRGH. Seriously, can't we just have a group hug?

 

[Anuba]

In this context, perhaps. But the incessant arguing of "how can more choice ever be bad?" is wrong. Sometimes it is. As proven using scientific methods and reported by Barry in his book.

Yes, sometimes more choice is bad. I realized this about 20 years ago when I noticed that the more synths and drum machines I bought, the less music I was making. I was five times more productive when I had one of each (and crappy ones at that).

But there has to be a balance. One size fits all never worked with T-shirts and it's not going to work with hi-tech either. You don't want an iPod Classic 120 GB in your pocket when you're out jogging, because it's going to pull down your pants. That's why we have the Shuffle and the Nano.

 

[-hh]

Yes, sometimes more choice is bad....But there has to be a balance. One size fits all never worked with T-shirts and it's not going to work with hi-tech either...

So then let's take these lemons to make some lemonaid:

From an impartial and impassionate perspective, just how many laptop permutations should exist for a manufacturer who only has 5% of the market?


...and what, specifically, are the key characteristics of each?



-hh

 

[Anuba]

So then let's take these lemons to make some lemonaid:

From an impartial and impassionate perspective, just how many laptop permutations should exist for a manufacturer who only has 5% of the market?

Three lines (consumer, prosumer, pro), three sizes of each (13, 15, 17).

Apple has one for consumers (13" whitebook), four for prosumers (13" MBA, 13" unibody MB, 15"/17" MBP), and kind-of-sort-of one for professionals (17" MBP with anti-glare option).

...and what, specifically, are the key characteristics of each?

Consumer: Simple and affordable. Prosumer: Flashy. Pro: Powerful, flexible, customizable, function over form.

That's 9 models, which is probably 20% of what Toshiba offers (they also have 5% of the market IIRC).

 

[Sehnsucht]

I tried a few other search strings...

"Vista sucks" generated 126,000 hits.

"Vista rocks" generated 14,000.

"OSX sucks"/"OS X sucks"/"Leopard sucks" generated around 4,000 hits combined.

"OSX rocks"/"OS X rocks"/"Leopard rocks" generated around 7,000 hits combined. Some of these hits appear to be misspellings of Def Leppard, though (as in "Deff Leopard rocks!")

Conclusions:

1) Vista sucks a whole lot more than it rocks (10:1)
2) OS X (Leopard or not) rocks a tad more than it sucks
3) 11,000 hits total is a really small number.

Reading that made my day.

"Rocks a tad more than it sucks."

 

[sn00pie]

The three ads have generated over 6000 comments here on MacRumors and have also spawned at least one parody ad offering the same laptop deal to a homeless person ("Frank").l]

I personally found that video to be great! Kudos to those behind it!

 

[Digital Skunk]

Consumer: Simple and affordable. Prosumer: Flashy. Pro: Powerful, flexible, customizable, function over form.

This was Apple in 2002.... how I miss those days.

To refresh memories it was the year Apple had a G4 tower for $1299, and the iMac (lamp shade) started at $1499.

 

[Eidorian]

This was Apple in 2002.... how I miss those days.

To refresh memories it was the year Apple had a G4 tower for $1299, and the iMac (lamp shade) started at $1499.

It was very hard to pick some of those Power Mac models over an iMac later on unless you needed expandability.

 

[Digital Skunk]

It was very hard to pick some of those Power Mac models over an iMac later on unless you needed expandability.

True, and those iMacs (up until the first Intels) had desktop class processors in them.

Buyers had to choose whether or not they wanted that headless expandable tower for $1299, or the all in one for $1499. Each had their benefits and features. Some picked the iMac, some the Power Mac.

Now.......

 

[polaris20]

True, and those iMacs (up until the first Intels) had desktop class processors in them.

Buyers had to choose whether or not they wanted that headless expandable tower for $1299, or the all in one for $1499. Each had their benefits and features. Some picked the iMac, some the Power Mac.

Now.......

Even the last G5 entry level model was at only $2000:

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/stats/powermac_g5_dual_2.0.html

Usually computers get cheaper, right?

 

[Synthetickiller]

So it took at least 5 hours of your valuable free time so far...what's the market value of that time if your boss told you to stay late and work that 5 hours as overtime?

Just be aware that if you say a low enough number, I'm going to hire you at that hourly rate to do a bunch of unpleasant work projects around my house that I don't want to do myself, starting with pulling the poison ivy.

The point that is being made here is that while you might have found those X hours of work to be interesting and entertaining (and thus "worth it" to you), we can't say that everyone will always feel the same way.

All people are always going to place some finite value on not having to (in their view) waste X hours of their life.

For example, if Apple made exactly the Mac that you hackintoshed, but it only cost $5 more, would you still have hacked in order to save that $5? The answer is (virtually) always going to be "No". Raise the 'Tax' to $10, you'll still be at 99.9% saying "No". At $50, you'll be at 99% No and 1% Yes...and so on.

Everyone ultimately has their price.


-hh

I just wanted to use a mac without having to stand in a store for HOURS on end playing with settings. This was my best option. I didn't want to make opinions about the product without using it at first.

Btw, I work a 9 hour day, no overtime, so unless something gets screwed up, I don't stay longer.

It was worth my time due to my enjoyment factor. It was a learning experience, that's why.

I don't expect people to build a hackintosh, its not legal and there are issues with it, albeit, easily remedied with the right hardware. Its just possible to do and demonstraights to me that the overall cost of the hardware isn't what determines the cost of a mac.

Apple will never use AMD, so that's out. If I do an intel build, you'll be the first one to know.

 

[AidenShaw]

Also, wasn't that Class action lawsuit because people wanted support in OS X for older Macs with ATI rage cards ? So in essence, Vista gets slapped because customers get burned with it, OS X gets slapped because people want it even though they can't have it.

No, it wasn't.

It was specifically that Apple promised that the Bondi Imacs with Rage video would be perfect for OSX - so buy one today with OS9 and upgrade to the latest OS.

When the OSX eventually shipped, support for the Rage videio sucked, and much of the "Aero" theme was disabled because the card wouldn't support it.

People who bought Imacs expecting to run OSX were disappointed, a class action suit against Apple resulted, and Apple lost.
_________

A big difference compared with the Vista complaint is that:

- Apple explicitly said that the Imac would be fully supported, then shipped a system with substandard support. Apple's statements, therefore, were lies. Apple promised support in order to promote Imac sales, but Apple did not deliver.

- Microsoft created several categories of "Vista X", "Vista Y", and "Vista Z". People who actually read the descriptions realized that "Y" was a subset of "Z" and "X" was a subset of "Y". The complaint was granted, however, based on the judgement that the differentiation in the "fine print" was too subtle and it was reasonable that people would expect "X" and "Z" to be the same. Microsoft's case wasn't helped by some statements by Microsoft people who confused X, Y and Z.

I don't expect people to build a hackintosh, its not legal....

No, it is not currently illegal. It is a violation of Apple's EULA, which has not be proven in court. Many EULA's have been invalidated when challenged.

Apple will never use AMD, so that's out. If I do an intel build, you'll be the first one to know.

Why not? Apple isn't using Intel chipsets in many of the new machines, it could skip Intel CPUs as well.

 

[Wikinerd]

Maybe restore sucks b/c you either can't back up your files properly or you don't know how to set restore points? I've recovered 100% of my stuff when I used to use it. Now I just back everything up to a 2nd hdd and leave it at that. A lot of people claim "X" sucks b/c of "Y", yet usually don't use the stuff enough to figure out how to properly make it work.

Oops. I've deleted the wrong file. Let me restore my system to get it back.

or


Ouch. Head crash. What should I do now?

 

[4D4M]

In the computer world, someone is choosing what parts/features your computer will have. You can make that choice based on your own needs that you have determined by your daily habits or you can let Steve make that choice based on what he feels like that day. Which is more likely to hurt the end-user?

If by "Steve" you mean a group of highly talented people in a company I admire, then yes I'll go with that!

 

[Setmose]

Microsoft allows HP to wipe Windows 7 with XP through 2010

Please explain why Vista "doesn't work"?

A couple of hundred million Vista users would like to know....

http://www.appleinsider.com/article...p_to_wipe_windows_7_with_xp_through_2010.html

Um, after you explain the announcement that Microsoft has extended its agreement with HP that HP can substitute XP for Vista in any notebook it manufactures under the Vista license through 2010. That's for stocked units, not "user requested" changes. If *business*, and I mean IT departments everywhere, has rejected Vista - THAT is the "bottom line". Unless you live under a rock under a glacier, you can't possibly have missed the general news that BUSINESS has rejected Vista outright.

The main issue: horrible, simply horrible performance. Here's a proof: go to any store that carries computer games. Look at the on-the-box printed system requirements for Crysis. There you will find separate requirements for XP and Vista: if you have XP you need a 2.8 GHz CPU, if you have Vista you need a 3.2 GHz CPU. Microsoft completely screwed up its attempt to copy Apple's implementation of Aqua (which runs on an OS-kernal located OpenGL layer). Microsoft even had the shrivelled-balls to call their windowing layer Aero. Aqua. Aero. Get it? Except that they failed in their implementation. The Vista failure ranks with "New Coke" and the GM / Chrysler collapse as some of the worst business execution in US history.

Don't take my word for it. Ask IT.

As for your "couple of hundred million Vista users", well, like we try to teach grammer-school kids: "Think for yourself. If everybody around you is jumping off a cliff, will you do so also?" Kind of reminds me of the Apple "Lemmings" ad in 1985.

 

[Wikinerd]

No, it wasn't.

It was specifically that Apple promised that the Bondi Imacs with Rage video would be perfect for OSX - so buy one today with OS9 and upgrade to the latest OS.

When the OSX eventually shipped, support for the Rage videio sucked, and much of the "Aero" theme was disabled because the card wouldn't support it.

People who bought Imacs expecting to run OSX were disappointed, a class action suit against Apple resulted, and Apple lost.
_________

A big difference compared with the Vista complaint is that:

- Apple explicitly said that the Imac would be fully supported, then shipped a system with substandard support. Apple's statements, therefore, were lies. Apple promised support in order to promote Imac sales, but Apple did not deliver.

- Microsoft created several categories of "Vista X", "Vista Y", and "Vista Z". People who actually read the descriptions realized that "Y" was a subset of "Z" and "X" was a subset of "Y". The complaint was granted, however, based on the judgement that the differentiation in the "fine print" was too subtle and it was reasonable that people would expect "X" and "Z" to be the same. Microsoft's case wasn't helped by some statements by Microsoft people who confused X, Y and Z.

You forgot the part where Apple gave away 10.1 for free for all the screwups.....

(If Microsoft gave away 7 free for all the screwups... then yeah I'd say it's worth buying a PC; otherwise bugger off...)

As well as this:
http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/...nal_Microsoft_clashes_over_Vista34428804.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/microsoft/2008403670_microsoft18.html

No, it is not currently illegal. It is a violation of Apple's EULA, which has not be proven in court. Many EULA's have been invalidated when challenged.

So long as you put an Apple sticker on it... ("Apple-labeled computer")

This License allows you to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time. You agree not to install, use 
or run the Apple Software on any non-Apple-labeled computer, or to enable others to do so.

Why not? Apple isn't using Intel chipsets in many of the new machines, it could skip Intel CPUs as well.

Nah, I don't think he knows what "x86" means...

I just wanted to use a mac without having to stand in a store for HOURS on end playing with settings. This was my best option. I didn't want to make opinions about the product without using it at first.

Btw, I work a 9 hour day, no overtime, so unless something gets screwed up, I don't stay longer.

It was worth my time due to my enjoyment factor. It was a learning experience, that's why.

I don't expect people to build a hackintosh, its not legal and there are issues with it, albeit, easily remedied with the right hardware. Its just possible to do and demonstraights to me that the overall cost of the hardware isn't what determines the cost of a mac.

Apple will never use AMD, so that's out. If I do an intel build, you'll be the first one to know.

Then try something easier.... google up "efi-x"...

 

[BongoBanger]

Um, after you explain the announcement that Microsoft has extended its agreement with HP that HP can substitute XP for Vista in any notebook it manufactures under the Vista license through 2010.

Uh... it's probably the same agreement they had to substitute XP for 2000 back in 2004 - three years after XP's release.

http://www.hp.com/workstations/white_papers/docs/windows2k_support_sept2004_v4.pdf

So 2010 would be, umm.... three years after Vista's release.

MS have allowed OS downgrades for every version that I can remember. XP, for example, allowed you to downgrade to 98SE, 2000 and NT as I recall.

Since the rest of your post is based on a false premise I'll save you any further embarrassment by not responding to it.

 

[Anuba]

Uh... it's probably the same agreement they had to substitute XP for 2000 back in 2004 - three years after XP's release.

http://www.hp.com/workstations/white_papers/docs/windows2k_support_sept2004_v4.pdf

So 2010 would be, umm.... three years after Vista's release.

MS have allowed OS downgrades for every version that I can remember. XP, for example, allowed you to downgrade to 98SE, 2000 and NT as I recall.

Yup. They've been allowing downgrades at least one, sometimes two versions backwards, always. And when Windows 9 is out in six years they'll be offering downgrade rights to Windows 7. Because businesses want it that way. They've got their IT guys mass-deploying both OS and software installations, all machines must be the same, many enterprises don't even allow individual users to install as much as a browser plugin. It has nothing to do with this or that OS version sucking; Win2K was infinitely more stable than Win98 but that didn't keep enterprises from staying with Win98 until it was time for the next upgrade cycle 3 years down the line... Leave it to AppleInsider to skew this particular news item to fit their agenda.

 

[-hh]

Three lines (consumer, prosumer, pro), three sizes of each (13, 15, 17).

Consumer: Simple and affordable. Prosumer: Flashy. Pro: Powerful, flexible, customizable, function over form.

I'm curious that the Prosumer is described as 'Flashy' despite many here who seem to think that a box is a box is a box is a box...but that's a sidebar.

That's 9 models, which is probably 20% of what Toshiba offers (they also have 5% of the market IIRC).

A very interesting comment from two perspectives.

First, if 9 models are fully adequately cover the range (of which Apple effectively makes 6), then why is Toshiba being inefficient by making "Too Many" (approx 40+ by your estimate)?

Afterall, as per the Pareto Principle (also known as the 80/20 rule) says that having 40+ models to try to cover 9 means that you're way down into increasingly unprofitable diminishing returns in trying to capture sales.

Second, what does this similarly mean for trying to cover 9 with only 6? Sure, it means that Apple is leaving some sales on the table, but they're also not falling victim to the diminishing returns that are represented in the 20% tail of the Pareto.

Interestingly, if we try to faithfully follow the Pareto, the 80% point for where 9 is fully adequate coverage is 7/9ths (78%), which means that Apple only needs to add one more laptop model than current in order to provide 'Pareto coverage'.

YMMV, being in a position where one needs to increase model proliferation by 16% (6-->7) to provide Pareto market coverage is a vastly superior business position to be in than the reverse, namely to cut out roughly (40-->7) 80% of your models to get to the same sweet spot.


-hh

 

[-hh]

I just wanted to use a mac without having to stand in a store for HOURS on end playing with settings. This was my best option. I didn't want to make opinions about the product without using it at first.

That argument is flawed for the reason that you yourself gave earlier:

"... the internals of the macbook are the same as a PC now..."


As such, you knew that had you not liked OS X, you could always have had just booted it into Windows and ignored OS X for the rest of its life.

And that's just one option. There's several alternatives to "Standing around in a Store", such as buy-sell, rent, lease, borrow a friend's ... you just didn't choose any of these based on other rationalizations of what you really wanted to do.

Btw, I work a 9 hour day, no overtime, so unless something gets screwed up, I don't stay longer.

Sorry, that's a very weak and lame attempt to dodge.

The point is that everyone's time is worth something, which through examples such as OT pay can be translated into a hard cash equivalent.

For example, at the USA Median income of roughly $45K/year, that works out to a direct pay rate of roughly $22.50/hour, for which OT would be $34/hr and 9 hours of which (for your hackintoshing) would be $300.

If we want to say that a college graduate white collar professional is one of Apple's target demographics, we can double these numbers ($600).

This is the hidden "Hackintosh Tax" that people try to ignore.

It was worth my time due to my enjoyment factor. It was a learning experience, that's why.

I know. And functionally, you paid for that entertainment.

I don't expect people to build a hackintosh, its not legal and there are issues with it, albeit, easily remedied with the right hardware.

Except for the "Not Legal" part. I know that the EULA is being legally challenged, but its still the law of the land. For some of us, being caught in such a violation represents a highly unacceptable risk because of the legal consequences that entail. As such, since the benefit is maybe only saving a mere $1000, the Risk:Benefit is simply unfavorable.

...the overall cost of the hardware isn't what determines the cost of a mac.

One doesn't need to DIY a Hacintosh to realize that. Much of the system's value is in the OS, and the $129 retail cost of a copy isn't a true estimate of this value, since all retail boxes are functionally upgrades to existing licenses, due to the "Apple Hardware" requirement in the EULA.


-hh

 

[Anuba]

I'm curious that the Prosumer is described as 'Flashy' despite many here who seem to think that a box is a box is a box is a box...but that's a sidebar.

IMO it's fairly obvious that the new MBP is catering more to snobby prosumers than actual professionals. The glossy screen, the limited BTO options, no quad, so-so connectivity... it has more in common with Dell Studio and HP Pavilion than Dell Precision and HP EliteBook. In other words, the new MBP wasn't so much made for these guys...

...as it was made for these guys...

...who will only be using it as a fancy, oversized netbook at Starbucks.

First, if 9 models are fully adequately cover the range (of which Apple effectively makes 6), then why is Toshiba being inefficient by making "Too Many" (approx 40+ by your estimate)?

Afterall, as per the Pareto Principle (also known as the 80/20 rule) says that having 40+ models to try to cover 9 means that you're way down into increasingly unprofitable diminishing returns in trying to capture sales.

Second, what does this similarly mean for trying to cover 9 with only 6? Sure, it means that Apple is leaving some sales on the table, but they're also not falling victim to the diminishing returns that are represented in the 20% tail of the Pareto.

Interestingly, if we try to faithfully follow the Pareto, the 80% point for where 9 is fully adequate coverage is 7/9ths (78%), which means that Apple only needs to add one more laptop model than current in order to provide 'Pareto coverage'.

YMMV, being in a position where one needs to increase model proliferation by 16% (6-->7) to provide Pareto market coverage is a vastly superior business position to be in than the reverse, namely to cut out roughly (40-->7) 80% of your models to get to the same sweet spot.

Ummm.... yeah, or how about this: It would be nice if Apple had 3x3 laptop models and filled the gap in their desktop line. Apple would be selling more computers and net pundits wouldn't be having these conversations.

 

[AidenShaw]

Apple is making things easy for CP+B

First, if 9 models are fully adequately cover the range (of which Apple effectively makes 6), then why is Toshiba being inefficient by making "Too Many" (approx 40+ by your estimate)?

Afterall, as per the Pareto Principle (also known as the 80/20 rule) says that having 40+ models to try to cover 9 means that you're way down into increasingly unprofitable diminishing returns in trying to capture sales.

I think that there may be a fallacy lurking in this analysis. There seems to an implied assumption that the overhead costs for each model is a fixed amount - the 2x the models would be 2x the costs to Apple.

This is clearly false for Apple. Adding a mini-tower would add some metal-bending expense. A new motherboard would be needed, but designing a motherboard is dirt cheap. The added expense in OSX development would be negligible if the chipset is similar to ones in use (and that's pretty obvious). Marketing expense - little or no additional charge (no new "PC vs Mac" ads - that's a brand campaign). Apple rolls out fresh product ads from time to time, whether a new one is for the mini-tower or some other product is the same expense.

Support and training costs, again a modest uptick (one more motherboard in stock, and you'd need to upgrade the Geniuses a bit).

And before the drones start chanting "Performa", note that nobody has been arguing for Apple to add dozens of slightly differing models.

And virtually no one has been arguing for Apple to compete with Costco specials on price - it would be expected that there's an "Apple Tax" on every system to cover more elegant design and materials.

So, in Aiden's opinion, what's missing is:

Mini-tower

Clearly the most requested system. Some people just don't like all-in-ones for a number of valid reasons - you know them, I won't repeat them.

Apple should add a mini-tower, available in Nehalem dual-core and quad-core configurations (single socket, desktop parts). Absolutely overlap the Imac price range. Give it at least one respectable gaming graphics card option (no need to try to match Alienware and Voodoo, just respectable).

At the same time, add a 20" or 21" LCD display to the lineup so that it's easy to keep the "Apple Style". Don't worry about cannibalizing Imac sales, make the 20"+mini-tower price somewhat above the low-end Imac price, and 24"+mini-tower a bit above the 24" Imac. The quad BTO option should be a minor additional charge, not a premium upgrade.

Make it Nehalem only - for the multi-media performance features. Don't offer a Core 2 Duo option - that would be a different motherboard, and would be older technology stuff. Make the mini-tower leading edge technology.

(I'm aware that dual core Nehalems aren't available yet - Apple should start with quad-only, and introduce a dual-core later at a lower price point. Get the early adopters with only the higher-priced systems.)​

Affordable Ultra-portable (aka "Netbook")

Clearly the Mac Book Air has not been a resounding success - it's too big, too expensive and too restricted to have found a big market.

In my opinion, Apple should aim for a 10" netbook at the $700 price point.

Must be full OSX - Iphone OS would be a failure. (Think of the "Netbook Hunter" ad - "So, this $500 netbook runs full Windows 7 and any of the Windows applications that that I use and can buy from anywhere. But this $700 Apple netbook only runs a small number of applications, none of them the same as the laptop apps, and I can only buy the apps from Apple?")

Apple may want to add a 5" or 6" Iphone OS, but that would be a big Ipod Touch, not a Mac.​

Fix the "upsell" tax in the MacBooks

Apple has absurdly crippled the lower end of the notebook line, in order to push people into spending more. Microsoft is really getting attention with the ads that exploit this fact.

Why do I need to spend $2000 for a 1394 port or Expresscard slot?

Why is $2500 the entry price for a CPU faster than 2.4 GHz? And $2800 for a 17"???

Dell has a 17" with 2.66GHz for $1249 !!! And a 15" with 1394 and ExpressCard and HDMI and eSATA for $859 !

And, Apple - it's time to offer 3G wireless builtin.​

Until Apple cleans up these issues, they are just handling scripts for future ads to CP+B....

 

[Setmose]

Since the rest of your post is based on a false premise I'll save you any further embarrassment by not responding to it.

That would be the "false premise" that it is general news that Microsoft failed miserably with Vista in both the consumer world and, more importantly, the business world?

http://www.cio.com.au/article/277238/defence_scraps_vista_office_exchange_server_upgrades

They failed so miserably that they even cooked up the "Mojave" ads in which they tried to show "testimonials" in which surprised consumers liked Vista when it was presented to them clandestinely as "Not Vista". That's one of the sorriest advertising moves I've ever seen, and a multi-million dollar admission that yes indeed, a very large consumer/business block agrees that "Vista sucks" to the point of holding back substantial revenue from Microsoft.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Comp/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/2008-08/msg00370.html

Is Microsoft still making money? Of course. That just proves they are indeed a monopoly and the suckers have to buy what they make. I'm not per se an Apple fanboi. I'm actually kind of excited that the Snow Leopard GUI will look like Motif widgets from the old X11 days in Solaris.

By the way, your theory about previous downgrade programs being comparable to the current Vista fiasco doesn't hold up. In the HP literature you posted they state clearly that downgrading is legally sanctioned (doesn't violate the hardware/software license agreements), but that HP will IN NO WAY provide the downgrade OS:

Q. If I want to downgrade, does HP provide the alternate operating system?
A. No, the Microsoft Windows XP Professional EULA specifies that neither HP nor Microsoft will
provide the alternate operating system. Customers can use applicable operating system versions
obtained through retail or volume licensing channels.

That's quite a different kettle of fish than what AppleInsider (and others) reported:

However, many PC makers prominently feature the "XP downgrade" as a feature of their new machines,
although many will apparently will lose the ability to continue offering an alternative to Vista when their
XP downgrade rights expire on July 31, unless they are also able to match the deal HP brokered with
Microsoft.

and the fact that HP is **bundling** the XP restore media with every unit.

Also, you ignored ignored the "rest of my post" in order to frame your argument. That's just slimy. Try taking a Logic 101 course. Then you will know how to use the term "false premise" correctly.

 

[3282868]

...

I agree with all these points, especially the [frustrating] lack of a mid-tower. As someone (maybe you) stated, the G3 or G4 used to be reasonably priced alongside the lamp iMac. Then with the Intel chipsets came price increases, the Mac Pro carries server grade processors, and everything else is a mobile processor. What happened to desktop processors in the "desktop" lineup? Is this simply because Apple desired a smaller form factor for its iMac? Or has Intel requested certain parameters for the usage of its chips, as sort of a differentiation from the rest of the market?

Isn't it just odd that there are no desktop processors in Apple's lineup?

 

[Synthetickiller]

That argument is flawed for the reason that you yourself gave earlier:

"... the internals of the macbook are the same as a PC now..."


As such, you knew that had you not liked OS X, you could always have had just booted it into Windows and ignored OS X for the rest of its life.

And that's just one option. There's several alternatives to "Standing around in a Store", such as buy-sell, rent, lease, borrow a friend's ... you just didn't choose any of these based on other rationalizations of what you really wanted to do.

Oh, but I wanted to try out the OS instead of just saying I believe its limited. I wanted to see for myself.

From running OSX on an amd based system, which I'd highly doubt you've done, it runs everything I've thrown at it. No slow downs at all. No bottle necks noticeable . I really believe if I threw a c2d or c2q, even i7 at this os, I wouldn't notice much of a difference. Same goes for windows. It all depends on what you're doing. The performance between an althon x2 and a first gen c2d (which many mac owners have) is not a massive gap in real world apps.

Buy & sell? Really? That's a hell of a lot of trouble, much more so for me than doing a hackintosh. Lease? I'm not throwing my money down a rat role, thanks anyways. Check out the cost:
http://www.meetingtomorrow.com/category/bulk-mac-notebook-rentals

I doubt the cost varies that much from rental store to rental store.

I don't know anyone who owns a working apple system besides my boss and he will not let me play around with it as I would like. Its his "baby" and I frankly couldn't blame him.

Care to lend me the cash to rent one for a week?

Lets get real and stop making so many assumptions. K? Thanks!

I agree with all these points, especially the [frustrating] lack of a mid-tower. As someone (maybe you) stated, the G3 or G4 used to be reasonably priced alongside the lamp iMac. Then with the Intel chipsets came price increases, the Mac Pro carries server grade processors, and everything else is a mobile processor. What happened to desktop processors in the "desktop" lineup? Is this simply because Apple desired a smaller form factor for its iMac? Or has Intel requested certain parameters for the usage of its chips, as sort of a differentiation from the rest of the market?

Isn't it just odd that there are no desktop processors in Apple's lineup?

Serious question here for anyone owning the newest model (physical build, I don't care which c2d you have in it).

If you stress the cpu 100% (is there a way to do that outside of huge data crunching or emulating windows and doing prime95?), are there any overheating issues?

I noticed the only cooling available is a narrow slot along the upper backside of the computer/monitor. I just wonder if its adequate for cpu intensive tasks.