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Tat

If you stress the cpu 100% (is there a way to do that outside of huge data crunching or emulating windows and doing prime95?), are there any overheating issues?

Run Intel TAT (Intel Thermal Analysis Tool) under Windows.

It's an Intel diagnostic and test program that pushes the chip as close to the TDP as possible.

It's meant to be OEM only, but can be found on the web (e.g. http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/392/Intel_Thermal_Analysis_Tool.html) with a simple search.

It would be interesting to run a 3D graphics test at the same time - to heat up the GPU as well.
 
Run Intel TAT (Intel Thermal Analysis Tool) under Windows.

It's an Intel program that pushes the chip as close to the TDP as possible.

It's meant to be OEM only, but can be found on the web (e.g. http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/392/Intel_Thermal_Analysis_Tool.html) with a simple search.

It would be interesting to run a 3D graphics test at the same time - to heat up the GPU as well.

You can't run anything like that natively on a mac? *facepalm*

If I have to use windows to do that, I'll just run prime95 or linpack. Linpack would be the ultimate test, but man, the temps it produces on a cpu are out of this world in comparison to anything else. Tat is ok, but not defacto.
 
I agree with all these points, especially the [frustrating] lack of a mid-tower. As someone (maybe you) stated, the G3 or G4 used to be reasonably priced alongside the lamp iMac. Then with the Intel chipsets came price increases, the Mac Pro carries server grade processors, and everything else is a mobile processor. What happened to desktop processors in the "desktop" lineup? Is this simply because Apple desired a smaller form factor for its iMac? Or has Intel requested certain parameters for the usage of its chips, as sort of a differentiation from the rest of the market?

Isn't it just odd that there are no desktop processors in Apple's lineup?
Wait... are different people using your account, or do you have some sort of polarity switch? You and KnightWRX have been fighting the mid-tower requests with napalm, Zyklon-B and cruise missiles, and now you agree? :confused: :D

Anyway... The reason why Apple have no desktop processors is simple. Steve and his crew decided nearly 10 years ago that consumer desktops shall henceforth only be all-in-ones. And then they launched the iMac (which wasn't really a new idea, it was more of a back-to-basics move since the original Macintosh was kind of an iMac). As long as CRT monitors ruled, you could easily stick a desktop-grade processor in an iMac. It worked with the lampshade iMac too, due to the screen and the computer being separate entities. Then came the iMac G5, which was the end of the line in terms of using desktop-grade processors in the iMac.

After that, they decided to make the iMac as thin as a monitor (even thinner actually, if you compare to the Cinema 30"), and as a consequence they couldn't use desktop-grade stuff anymore due to heat and space issues. So instead they pretty much took a MacBook and gaffer-taped it to the back of an LCD-screen. This created a gap between the iMac and the "big Mac" (PMG5/Mac Pro), a gap which was widened when they went with Xeon processors for the Mac Pro (G5 wasn't really server-grade). This opened the floodgates for criticism such as the Macworld article "The Mythical Midrange Mac Minitower", as well as the myriad of 'gimme a consumer mid-tower dammit' threads we keep seeing here.

So... there never was a "hey, let's stop using desktop-grade processors" decision, it was a side effect of other decisions.
 
Wait... are different people using your account, or do you have some sort of polarity switch? You and KnightWRX have been fighting the mid-tower requests with napalm, Zyklon-B and cruise missiles, and now you agree? :confused: :D

Maybe you've misunderstood my posts, but I'm not against a cheap desktop. I'm just saying that horse is dead, and beating it some more isn't going to change that fact.

All I am saying, Apple did the desktop mid-tower thing for 1299$. They've been there, done that. There is a reason they don't do it anymore. You have to be a realist sometime and realise that the good old days just aren't going to comeback because a small minority is being vocal.

I'm not fighting the request, just saying that people being anal about it need to open their eyes a little to the reality of Apple's market.
 
Does it even support multiple cores?

Yes, it supports dual cores at least in the leaked version.


You can't run anything like that natively on a mac? *facepalm*

If I have to use windows to do that, I'll just run prime95 or linpack. Linpack would be the ultimate test, but man, the temps it produces on a cpu are out of this world in comparison to anything else. Tat is ok, but not defacto.

TAT is better. It's specifically written by Intel engineers to generate as much heat as possible.

TAT runs a worst case mix of instructions that don't do anything other than keep all of the functional units of the CPU as busy (that is, as hot) as possible.

Linpack is mainly floating point - the integer parts of the chip are relatively idle (and not generating heat). It's also memory-bound - so the floating point execution units spend a lot of time idle while waiting for memory.
 
That would be the "false premise" that it is general news that Microsoft failed miserably with Vista in both the consumer world and, more importantly, the business world?

No, it would be the false premise where you stated that allowing customers to downgrade to XP from Vista was a sign of it 'sucking' when actually MS have allowed previous version downgrades with every OS they've released.

By the way, your theory about previous downgrade programs being comparable to the current Vista fiasco doesn't hold up. In the HP literature you posted they state clearly that downgrading is legally sanctioned (doesn't violate the hardware/software license agreements), but that HP will IN NO WAY provide the downgrade OS:

Yes. After March 31 2004. Three years after XP was released. What part of that are you having difficulty understanding?

Also, you ignored ignored the "rest of my post" in order to frame your argument. That's just slimy. Try taking a Logic 101 course. Then you will know how to use the term "false premise" correctly. :apple:

Actually, I ignored it because it's the usual clueless rant from someone who gets their info from fansites rather than product literature. I just don't see the point in debating with someone as ill informed as you appear to be.
 
Yes, it supports dual cores at least in the leaked version.




TAT is better. It's specifically written by Intel engineers to generate as much heat as possible.

TAT runs a worst case mix of instructions that don't do anything other than keep all of the functional units of the CPU as busy (that is, as hot) as possible.

Linpack is mainly floating point - the integer parts of the chip are relatively idle (and not generating heat). It's also memory-bound - so the floating point execution units spend a lot of time idle while waiting for memory.

I can't run TAT in any x64 os, so I don't bother. Just realized that lol. I haven't used it in a long time. Maybe they improved it?

I still have a hard time believing that linpack has been beaten. I'd love to see some screenies ;)
 
All I am saying, Apple did the desktop mid-tower thing for 1299$. They've been there, done that. There is a reason they don't do it anymore. You have to be a realist sometime and realise that the good old days just aren't going to comeback because a small minority is being vocal.
Right... although I think this minority is substantially larger than those who complained about glossy screen on MBP, and given that Apple recently fixed that mistake (on the MBP 17", at least), I don't think it's 100% inconceivable that they might introduce a headless desktop model... it is the loudest of all whining about Macs, after all.

I don't think any meaningful conclusions can be drawn from the relative failure of their last (?) headless consumer desktop. It was really weak, and the alternative (iMac) had desktop-grade components back then, plus the step up to more powerful PowerMacs wasn't too steep. Also, the demand for expansion and upgrade abilities wasn't nearly as big as it is today when video cards, RAM and extra hard drives are selling like hotcakes... we didn't pimp our minitowers much in the 90's and early 2000's.

Furthermore, like I said above, they didn't really stop offering desktop-grade processors on purpose -- it was a product of a form-over-function decision on the iMac, combined with going Xeon-only on the Mac Pro.

So, one may take the position that consumer minitowers are dead or dying and Apple moved on long ago... or, one might argue that there's an opening for such a Mac right now that didn't really exist in the past.
 
I can't run TAT in any x64 os, so I don't bother. Just realized that lol. I haven't used it in a long time. Maybe they improved it?

I still have a hard time believing that linpack has been beaten. I'd love to see some screenies ;)

Here's a discussion that suggests that TAT will push core temps 5 degrees higher than Prime95....

Surely someone has an x86 Windows OS in a dual-boot config.
 
I think that there may be a fallacy lurking in this analysis. There seems to an implied assumption that the overhead costs for each model is a fixed amount - the 2x the models would be 2x the costs to Apple.

When the discussion is "Hardware Only" manufacturing ... which is the crux of this discussion, then the fixed & variable manufacturing costs are pretty much 2x = 2x, until we're sharing identical components or subsytems.

This is clearly false for Apple. Adding a mini-tower would add some metal-bending expense.

Non-identical to existing inventory. New tooling required, new QA procedures, new part#s, additional inventory to track, additional contracts, etc, etc.

A new motherboard would be needed, but designing a motherboard is dirt cheap.

Non-identical to existing inventory. New tooling required, new QA procedures, new part#s, additional inventory to track, additional contracts, etc, etc.

The question isn't if it is "cheap" or not, because two cheap motherboards still cost 2x the cost of one cheap motherboard.

The added expense in OSX development would be negligible if the chipset is similar to ones in use (and that's pretty obvious).

Similar is still not identical. Testing is still required.

Marketing expense - little or no additional charge (no new "PC vs Mac" ads - that's a brand campaign). Apple rolls out fresh product ads from time to time, whether a new one is for the mini-tower or some other product is the same expense.

True, there will be some economies of scale in some areas.

Support and training costs, again a modest uptick (one more motherboard in stock, and you'd need to upgrade the Geniuses a bit).

But still not a zero burden.

And before the drones start chanting "Performa", note that nobody has been arguing for Apple to add dozens of slightly differing models.

Which is why I flipped this to say "So how many permutations is optimal?"

Kudos to Anuba for being brave enough to stick his neck out.

So, in Aiden's opinion, what's missing is:

Mini-tower

What was missing from this challenge was all discussions of desktops. Perhaps you'll notice that it was constrained to just laptops. Not only does this make the exercise an easier one to benchmark, but since laptops are currently 70% of Apple's business, its far more relevant.

At the same time, add a 20" or 21" LCD display to the lineup so that it's easy to keep the "Apple Style".

IMO, I don't think that Apple does well on their monitors and I suspect that they'd like to discontinue the product line if they could get away with it. They're essentially a commodity item not unlike a printer ... and you'll notice that Apple got out of the printer business a long time ago.

Affordable Ultra-portable (aka "Netbook")

Clearly the Mac Book Air has not been a resounding success - it's too big, too expensive and too restricted to have found a big market.

In my opinion, Apple should aim for a 10" netbook at the $700 price point.

Must be full OSX - Iphone OS would be a failure. (Think of the "Netbook Hunter" ad - "So, this $500 netbook runs full Windows 7 and any of the Windows applications that that I use and can buy from anywhere. But this $700 Apple netbook only runs a small number of applications, none of them the same as the laptop apps, and I can only buy the apps from Apple?")

Apple may want to add a 5" or 6" Iphone OS, but that would be a big Ipod Touch, not a Mac.​


And the tea leaves are suggesting that they're looking in this direction.

Fix the "upsell" tax in the MacBooks

Apple has absurdly crippled the lower end of the notebook line, in order to push people into spending more. Microsoft is really getting attention with the ads that exploit this fact.​


That does seem to be a difficulty...and IMO, the reason that the Whitebook exists is to maintain a <$1000 price point.

And, Apple - it's time to offer 3G wireless builtin.

I personally suspect that this very well may be incorporated into the rumored NetBook. However, if it is, I'm personally more likely to go buy a MBA instead, because of the monthly fee that it incurs.


-hh​
 
From running OSX on an amd based system, which I'd highly doubt you've done...

Since running OS X on an AMD system is an EULA violation, and I've already said that I don't violate EULA's, that is not even an option open for realistic consideration for some of us.

... it runs everything I've thrown at it. No slow downs at all. No bottle necks noticeable...

So your prognosis on OS X is that the OS doesn't suck? Imagine that. The next thing you know, people might even be willing to pay extra for it because of something that they find fault with with Windows.


Buy & sell? Really? That's a hell of a lot of trouble, much more so for me than doing a hackintosh. Lease? I'm not throwing my money down a rat role, thanks anyways.

Trouble that takes less than 9 hours.

Since your objective is minimizing costs, you could have bought a used mini on eBay, used it for 3-9 months and re-sold it, for less "loss" than the $129 you must have legally spent for your current copy of OS X. Just one example of many Apple machines you can do this on...and it takes a lot less than 9 hours to box/unbox a machine twice, even including pickup/dropoff at UPS.

I don't know anyone who owns a working apple system besides my boss and he will not let me play around with it as I would like...

So go find better friends :rolleyes:

-hh
 
Right... although I think this minority is substantially larger than those who complained about glossy screen on MBP, and given that Apple recently fixed that mistake (on the MBP 17", at least), I don't think it's 100% inconceivable that they might introduce a headless desktop model... it is the loudest of all whining about Macs, after all.
Thats the most sensible argument I have heard. Apple may introduce a headless mac model, but its very unlikely. Apple's product rang is very succinct because they don't want to run into the problem of self competition. They don't want a headless Mac to simply overtake the all in one iMac - the main product differentiator that Apple has versus its other hardware vendors. Releasing a headless model would be an admission of failure on many fronts. They don't want to release a flagship product thats just like everybody else that gets buried under a desk like other workstations. They would rather leave that to their workstation and server models which get sold to companies who are going to buy a Mac regardless.

Apple has to be very conscientious about their products getting compared to what is already out there or even worse, what they already have. Apple's approach to hardware is very different to the approaches that HP, Dell, etc all take because they are selling an integrated unit. Other PC vendors are simply windows resellers and are interested in pushing out hardware in sheer volume for as cheap as possible since thats it the only real way to compete with each other. What investment does Dell, HP, Lennovo make into Windows? Very little if anything at all. Thats why they produce the beige boxes, they are just making something that is going to run Windows almost identically to their competitor. Apple has to convince people to conscientiously buy their product over the rest of the guys and therefore makes their hardware look attractive and distinctive. Headless models are very difficult to make distinctive.

I don't think any meaningful conclusions can be drawn from the relative failure of their last (?) headless consumer desktop. It was really weak, and the alternative (iMac) had desktop-grade components back then, plus the step up to more powerful PowerMacs wasn't too steep. Also, the demand for expansion and upgrade abilities wasn't nearly as big as it is today when video cards, RAM and extra hard drives are selling like hotcakes... we didn't pimp our minitowers much in the 90's and early 2000's.

Really? Headless models get sold because thats mostly what's out there and because its easier to re-tool factories to make the profitable workstation. To be honest, I don't know that many people that actually upgrade any components that they get in their computers unless its one that they built themselves or they are adding on a second graphics card to do multiple screens (they buy the cheapest components). Outside of that, memory is the biggest thing that gets upgraded. The vast majority of people that I deal with simply buy a new computer when their current model breaks down.

Headless computers do allow for upgrading and flexibility, but most people seem to never do that, preferring to hide their tower under their desk and forget about them. Some do take advantage of their flexibility, but, most often people are upgrading the same components that you can do on any of the Mac.

Of course Laptops are the big sellers nowadays and they suffer from the lack of upgradeability anyway. Most people will either buy the cheapest thing out there without any regard to components, or they get when they need from the get go and upgrade a couple of components later on. If they need something that outclasses their current computer, they just buy a newer one. I find that most tweakers are people that buy their own computer anyway. Apple doesn't want to accommodate them anymore than Nintendo wants to cater to hardcore, powerhouse, HD gaming, Blue Ray, purists. Sony caters to that and they are a distant third compared to Nintendo. Apple caters to simplicity and looks over complexity, blandness, and brute force.

Furthermore, like I said above, they didn't really stop offering desktop-grade processors on purpose -- it was a product of a form-over-function decision on the iMac, combined with going Xeon-only on the Mac Pro.

Exactly. Form over function isn't always a bad choice. Apple does offer more powerful options, they come at a premium of course. We should point out that Apple's lack of choice and flexibility allows them to focus on quality and integration that works. Its not going to work 100% of the time and their are going to be misses or things that aren't as good as a competitor.

We have to remember that Apple is not out to be the jesus computer company or the be all and end all of computers. Thats kind of silly - Apple knows that MS will be the market leader tomorrow and for the foreseeable future. Apple wants to be known for creating "better" computers that offer things that PC's can only dream of. Better doesn't have to be related to specs. It can mean a lot of things. Apple's innovations are what keep the PC industry from becoming a dull bland tool that just does many things. They do many of the same things that PC's do (and more sometimes) with attractiveness and style. It may not always be necessary, but a lot of the times its really nice.

I really dislike people trying to compare Apple with Microsoft as I am sure both companies dislike comparisons with each other. Microsoft is a software company through and through. Their goal is to make code that gets the job done. They are not Apple nor will they ever be Apple. Apple is the company that says no to the typical mold and innovates the industry. Thats why MS copies Apple. They create the most things that work. MS rarely if ever innovates on ideas and when they do, they rarely ever exploit them. Their successes lie in maintaining their core and copying the outside. Ask yourself, does Apple want to become Microsoft? Maybe a little bit, but not any more than what a business has to in order to be successful. I certainly wouldn't want Apple to survive purely on momentum like the rest of the industry seems to do. I want Apple to use their assets and take advantage of them to their extreme and for Apple, vertical integration works. The last time they tried horizontal integration it failed. Imagine is Microsoft developed everything in house. It wouldn't work all that well and MS would be a minority player. I say let MS be what they are and try to do better than Apple. If they do something that works, Apple may take a page on that and do better. I do know this. Apple is not going to take something that the PC market does and outright clone it. Despite what people say, its not going to fly. Apple does not play by MS's book.
 
Wrong - BMW is in another class than Hundai

It's the same thing as us car owners talk about which brands are better. You can get that BMW, Mercedes or Audi if you like but the Hyundai does much the same for less. To each their own I say.

Obviously you know little about cars or computers. You could say that a Hundai and BMW do the same thing, drive the same way... just ask a BMW owner and they will laugh at you. Same goes for a Mac... they drive differently, the experience is so much better.
 
Since running OS X on an AMD system is an EULA violation, and I've already said that I don't violate EULA's, that is not even an option open for realistic consideration for some of us.



So your prognosis on OS X is that the OS doesn't suck? Imagine that. The next thing you know, people might even be willing to pay extra for it because of something that they find fault with with Windows.




Trouble that takes less than 9 hours.

Since your objective is minimizing costs, you could have bought a used mini on eBay, used it for 3-9 months and re-sold it, for less "loss" than the $129 you must have legally spent for your current copy of OS X. Just one example of many Apple machines you can do this on...and it takes a lot less than 9 hours to box/unbox a machine twice, even including pickup/dropoff at UPS.



So go find better friends :rolleyes:

-hh

It doesn't suck as an OS, the software selection sucks. An OS is nothing w/o software. Windows runs fine with lots of software. Go figure. I've seen no positive aspects of the OS itself. It does what my vista install does. There's nothing amazing about it. Its just an OS running on overpriced hardware. Intel is intel, same exact cpus.

You judge people by what type of computer they have? LOL, no wonder people by far consider hardcore apple users snobs. ;)
 
When the discussion is "Hardware Only" manufacturing ... which is the crux of this discussion, then the fixed & variable manufacturing costs are pretty much 2x = 2x, until we're sharing identical components or subsytems.

Would it not be 2x, but

(setup.A + (per.unit.cost.A * quantity.sold.A))
+ (setup.B + (per.unit.cost.B * quantity.sold.B))​

Certainly the Taiwanese and Chinese factories that build Apples are good at keeping the setup costs down.

Non-identical to existing inventory. New tooling required, new QA procedures, new part#s, additional inventory to track, additional contracts, etc, etc.

Setup costs amortized over millions of units....


Non-identical to existing inventory. New tooling required, new QA procedures, new part#s, additional inventory to track, additional contracts, etc, etc..

Setup costs amortized over millions of units....


The question isn't if it is "cheap" or not, because two cheap motherboards still cost 2x the cost of one cheap motherboard.

Dirt cheap setup costs amortized over millions of units.... If Asus alone can offer 8 different motherboards for Core i7 alone, surely Apple can afford a board for a mini-tower. (Apple could even OEM an X58 board from Asus or one of the other manufacturers.)

Actually, I think that your whole argument is destroyed by the simple fact that Apple is using different motherboards for the quad and octo Mac Pros. If an additional mobo really costs as much as you claim, there's no way that they would have engineered two different mobos for the Mac Pro.




but since laptops are currently 70% of Apple's business, its far more relevant.

A side effect of Apple's poor value in the desktop lineup.


However, if it is, I'm personally more likely to go buy a MBA instead, because of the monthly fee that it incurs.

The monthly fee only occurs if you exercise the choice. Also notice that if you're a business traveler, the monthly fee is about the price of hotel internet access for 4 nights. In addition, it means that you never have to look for a hotspot or pay hotspot fees. You also have your own private line, rather than be open to eavesdropping by everyone at a hotspot.

Check out

Gartner: 3G laptops future must-have for businessMay 30, 2008 — 11:10am ET | By Lynnette Luna

Laptops embedded with 3G are likely to become a must-have for the business world starting next year because new technologies and better pricing plans are making them more attractive, says research group Gartner....

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story...ps-become-must-have-business-users/2008-05-30

I'd think that Apple would want to have "must-have" options available.
 
Since running OS X on an AMD system is an EULA violation, and I've already said that I don't violate EULA's, that is not even an option open for realistic consideration for some of us.

Thats why I don't like discussions about hackintoshes much less people that openly support them. While it is true that EULA's are not bound by law in the sense that violating it would result in jail time, you cannot/should not go out and will nilly violate an agreement just because you(g) do not agree that they apply to you or that they violate your interpretation of the law. As far as we are concerned as of today (unless Apple's EULA is considered null and void), bringing up discussion about running OSX on other platforms is just silly and goes into the hypothetical. Seriously, what point is it discussing running osx on a netbook? Yes its possible, but what's the point n talking about it because there is no business behind it? Apple has already expressed little to no interest in them. It doesn't matter if its possible. Apple's decision not to do one as of yet is all that matters. We don't criticize BMW for making a cheap compact car for the masses right?

I am not saying that your making that argument, just that addressing hypothetical scenarios based on what is technically possible (like you are saying) is moot. It is akin to talking about what I would do with the proceeds of a bank robbery without considering that I, nor most other people would consider doing such a thing.
 
Thats the most sensible argument I have heard. Apple may introduce a headless mac model, but its very unlikely. Apple's product rang is very succinct because they don't want to run into the problem of self competition. They don't want a headless Mac to simply overtake the all in one iMac - the main product differentiator that Apple has versus its other hardware vendors.
Well... A) the risk of a headless Mac cannibalizing iMac sales is overrated, IMO. The iMac is kind of a niche product (albeit a popular niche) and people buy them for the form factor and design more than anything else. And B) there are many reasons to not want that particular form factor. For example, you may have peripherals that you plan on keeping even after you've switched out your desktop computer. I have a 30" monitor I bought last year, it's good for another 5-6 years and currently plugged in to a Dell XPS700 (prosumer/gaming)... what would I do with an iMac? Put the 30" in a closet? I do have an iMac, incidentally, but I never would've bought one if it were to be my only computer. I plan to replace the XPS700 with a Mac Pro, since I can afford and kind-of-sort-of need one, but I'm in the minority.

Releasing a headless model would be an admission of failure on many fronts.
It would be admitting that they've been wrong for many years in thinking all-in-ones are all that consumers will ever need, sure. But they could make it look like less of a failure by having fun with the design and bringing a bit of innovation spirit to a very stagnant form factor... I was thinking something like a Mac Mini Jumbo with a couple of empty PCI card slots but much, much smaller than a minitower. More like a cube, or a thin microtower that can be placed horizontally or vertically. I dunno, they'd figure something out.

Obviously you know little about cars or computers. You could say that a Hundai and BMW do the same thing, drive the same way... just ask a BMW owner and they will laugh at you. Same goes for a Mac... they drive differently, the experience is so much better.
Right, because a BMW has rear wheel drive, and because it's a premium car designed and built in Germany. What on earth does that have to do with a Chinese-made PC with an Apple logo on it? I'm sure BMW owners would laugh hysterically if you drove up in a Hyundai with a BMW badge superglued to the front grille (which pretty much sums up what a Mac is, from a hardware perspective). Enough with this dumb analogy already, and stop insulting German premium brands by trying to borrow their thunder to glorify Chinese PCs.
 
Right, because a BMW has rear wheel drive, and because it's a premium car designed and built in Germany. What on earth does that have to do with a Chinese-made PC with an Apple logo on it? I'm sure BMW owners would laugh hysterically if you drove up in a Hyundai with a BMW badge superglued to the front grille (which pretty much sums up what a Mac is, from a hardware perspective). Enough with this dumb analogy already, and stop insulting German premium brands by trying to borrow their thunder to glorify Chinese PCs.

Comparing cars to computers is like comparing planes to video came consoles. Its not a good analogy. And why always cars?

If I built a hackintosh inside of a mac pro and just used a dual socket quad board, etc, I doubt anyone could tell the difference anyways.
 
Right... although I think this minority is substantially larger than those who complained about glossy screen on MBP, and given that Apple recently fixed that mistake (on the MBP 17", at least), I don't think it's 100% inconceivable that they might introduce a headless desktop model... it is the loudest of all whining about Macs, after all.

Actually the loudest whining is about Apple's prices. ;)
 
]It would be admitting that they've been wrong for many years in thinking all-in-ones are all that consumers will ever need, sure. But they could make it look like less of a failure by having fun with the design and bringing a bit of innovation spirit to a very stagnant form factor... I was thinking something like a Mac Mini Jumbo with a couple of empty PCI card slots but much, much smaller than a minitower. More like a cube, or a thin microtower that can be placed horizontally or vertically. I dunno, they'd figure something out.

What good is a tower with good design when you are just going to stick it under your desk. Workstations don;t count since they are not in the consumer end. Apple builds and designs computers that are born to be shown off. Even want to know why the Apple logo lights up with the computer power? It attracts attention to passerby's. Every other laptop logo is just bland and tacked on. The number one place people request their computers at our offices when i set up their tower is on the floor hidden away. Why would Apple make a consumer product that nobody would see. The only person who enjoys it is you. I also think that you give Apple credit when you say they will just "figure it out' The cube was a failure. Sometimes forms destroy function.
 
What good is a tower with good design when you are just going to stick it under your desk. Workstations don;t count since they are not in the consumer end. Apple builds and designs computers that are born to be shown off. Even want to know why the Apple logo lights up with the computer power? It attracts attention to passerby's. Every other laptop logo is just bland and tacked on. The number one place people request their computers at our offices when i set up their tower is on the floor hidden away. Why would Apple make a consumer product that nobody would see. The only person who enjoys it is you. I also think that you give Apple credit when you say they will just "figure it out' The cube was a failure. Sometimes forms destroy function.

Your entire argument comes up short on account of the mini. Most people just tuck their minis away just like a tower.
 
If I built a hackintosh inside of a mac pro and just used a dual socket quad board, etc, I doubt anyone could tell the difference anyways.

Thats cheating though. Putting completely different hardware in a different case is akin to gutting a BMW and putting higher performing parts etc.. When you do that you still don't have a BMW and claiming that is just dishonest.

And again, hackintoshes are not really valid arguments. You cannot legitimately buy them and they are beyond what most people do to a computer.
 
Your entire argument comes up short on account of the mini. Most people just tuck their minis away just like a tower.

Well thats not my experience. People just keep them on their desk near the monitor. Of course I really don't see too many people buy Minis these days unless they adapt them to be home media servers and not as desktop computers. The mini is also not a tower. Nobody would seriously classify it as that.
 
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