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TheSpaz

macrumors 604
Jun 20, 2005
7,032
1
If that's the case for you, you absolutely should not upgrade your OS until it has been out a while and people report that it is reliable enough for what you are doing. Any mission critical machine should probably always be on an OS that's fairly old and proven. And that goes for any OS, not just osx.

Personally, I've been dual booting all my machines. I think I'm going to switch one to 10.5 full time now, the other I'm still waiting to see how 10.5.2 is.



To be honest, I'd like to see ALL of my apps get a .1 release soon after the initial one, I don't consider that under done.



You should make sure your apps are compatible before you buy those machines. Guys I work with are doing those checks right now.

Everything you said is correct in my book. Don't try to fix what isn't broken right? If an older version of the OS is running stable and your software is tested and works great on it... don't upgrade to a newer OS which might break that compatibility and leave you open for having to go through hoops trying to figure out why some things that used to work don't work anymore.

The above statement is my attitude about my WORK machine... At home however, I love the latest and greatest and I always jump on what's newest because there's nothing I'm doing at home that is mission-critical.

Apart from a few problems with some input managers, Leopard has been simply ROCK-SOLID for me, in pretty much every sense...

And yeah, it's much better than Tiger in terms of overall stability and speed...10.5.2 will just be the icing on the cake. GO APPLE!

I love how fast Leopard is... it's insane.
 

unlokia

macrumors regular
Jan 14, 2007
137
0
I love how fast Leopard is... it's insane.

Do I understand "is" to mean "is, in ten months time"?. My BRAND NEW SR Macbook with 4Gb ram takes 30s+ to boot, and I have screen tearing due to crappy infant X3100 drivers. Nice one - great. However, I know they will fix it, but I also know that until they do, you [nice people] will be sitting with your fingers on the software update option, like it is the end of the world. Amusing.
 

Daveoc64

macrumors 601
Jan 16, 2008
4,074
92
Bristol, UK
If that's the case for you, you absolutely should not upgrade your OS until it has been out a while and people report that it is reliable enough for what you are doing. Any mission critical machine should probably always be on an OS that's fairly old and proven. And that goes for any OS, not just osx.

Personally, I've been dual booting all my machines. I think I'm going to switch one to 10.5 full time now, the other I'm still waiting to see how 10.5.2 is.



To be honest, I'd like to see ALL of my apps get a .1 release soon after the initial one, I don't consider that under done.



You should make sure your apps are compatible before you buy those machines. Guys I work with are doing those checks right now.

I don't personally have anything that important that doesn't work, but I own a model of Mac that will only run Leopard - so I can't "go back to Tiger".

Nor would I want to buy an old operating system for the few months until an update was released (not that I could, seeing as Tiger for Intel wasn't released to retail).

I think most people are being so harsh about the state of Leopard because Apple is always talking about how much better it is compared to Microsoft at making reliable, compatible and simple software much sooner.

Apple has shown it's able to be just as bad, if not worse over some things.
 

j-a-x

macrumors 68000
Apr 15, 2005
1,562
284
Houston, Texas
I don't know why everybody in here seems to be having so many problems with Leopard. I've never had a crash on my MacBook or PowerBook G4, and Leopard fixes a lot of minor annoyances from Tiger. In general, I like Leopard a lot. I don't have any major complaints, although I have a few minor ones.

I'm still looking forward to the update though (especially updated graphics drivers for the X3100).
 

Yaboze

macrumors 6502a
May 31, 2007
796
275
The Garden State
Macbook SR 2.2 here, came with Leopard, no issues with Airport, in fact, I haven't even used my ethernet port at all, only to test it once. I've done everything wireless, no drops or issues. I have a Linksys router.
 

alw4416

macrumors member
Jul 10, 2006
78
0
Kansas City
Logic 8 in Leopard

All I can say is that I hope 10.5.2 fixes all the FU!@#$ issues with Logic 8... I am still perplexed at the lack of support for Logic Studio. It is as though Apple is so damn busy doing other things that they have totally forgotten about it. If you won't take my word for it, go to the Apple discussion board and look at all the posts about the overload issues in Logic 8.0.1. I have a brand new 8 core with 10GB of RAM and Logic runs like I turtle. I spent most of the night trying to figure out if it is Logic or 10.5.1....? That is the question of the day, is Logic just buggy, or is it a combo of Logic and 10.5.1??? Please feel free to post your thoughts. PLEASE COME 10.5.2 and LOGIC 8.0.2!!!
 

TheSpaz

macrumors 604
Jun 20, 2005
7,032
1
All I can say is that I hope 10.5.2 fixes all the FU!@#$ issues with Logic 8... I am still perplexed at the lack of support for Logic Studio. It is as though Apple is so damn busy doing other things that they have totally forgotten about it. If you won't take my word for it, go to the Apple discussion board and look at all the posts about the overload issues in Logic 8.0.1. I have a brand new 8 core with 10GB of RAM and Logic runs like I turtle. I spent most of the night trying to figure out if it is Logic or 10.5.1....? That is the question of the day, is Logic just buggy, or is it a combo of Logic and 10.5.1??? Please feel free to post your thoughts. PLEASE COME 10.5.2 and LOGIC 8.0.2!!!

I had Logic Express 8 freak out on me the other day. I was switching audio sources from my line-out to the Firewire Solo and LE8 started acting really slow and couldn't even play anything without it stopping with an error. I found out that there was an error loop that was logging to my log file in console and all I had to do was stop the logging source with Activity Monitor.
 

Bonsai1214

macrumors 6502a
Jan 15, 2008
585
11
Penfield, NY
i had my first leopard kernel panic today. it was because of my microsoft mouse. go figure..

aside from that, leopard's been rock solid and super fast. .2 will just add more sweetness to the os.
 

csalm87

macrumors regular
Jan 29, 2008
228
182
Cleveland, Ohio
i had my first leopard kernel panic today. it was because of my microsoft mouse. go figure..

aside from that, leopard's been rock solid and super fast. .2 will just add more sweetness to the os.

LOL... I had a Leopard kernel panic a few days ago, the second time in my life I have seen the "You need to restart your computer" message. Yes. Second time EVER. I've only gotten it once on Panther, none on Tiger.
 
This is also holding up my next computer purchase. I can't run Leopard at the moment, and until it becomes safe, sane, stable and mature, there's no way I'll consider switching to it.

Whether that means 10.5.2, or 10.5.3, or even 10.5.4, I'll wait. I'm in no rush to dump a lot of money on a product that isn't as good as what I've got now.

I just wish companies (like Apple) wouldn't rush their freaking product to market, most especially when one of their major claims to fame is that it's supposed to be more stable and dependable than the alternative.
 

riscy

macrumors 6502a
Jan 4, 2008
737
3
China
^^ What you said, Mike - I upgraded to Leopard as I had to change the HD, and was in a different country where I could get my hands on Leopard, and I assumed it would be pretty stable, but that is not the case.

I know that lots of people love Leopard and have no problems, but others are having a tough time, and have been since November (especially those behind proxy servers).

The only web based app I have that works is FireFox (not Apple based!), all my other internet based apps crash as soon as they open - that pisses me off!! They work on the Mac if I unplug the ethernet cable - what is that about, when they want and need internet access?
 

kolax

macrumors G3
Mar 20, 2007
9,181
115
Do I understand "is" to mean "is, in ten months time"?. My BRAND NEW SR Macbook with 4Gb ram takes 30s+ to boot, and I have screen tearing due to crappy infant X3100 drivers. Nice one - great. However, I know they will fix it, but I also know that until they do, you [nice people] will be sitting with your fingers on the software update option, like it is the end of the world. Amusing.

30 seconds to boot isn't unusual - that is more because of hard drive performance than anything else. I rarely shut my MBP down, I always put it to sleep. Wakes up instantly and ready to use. When I need to restart, 30 seconds is nothing. I usually nip to the loo or get a drink and it's ready when I'm back.

Maybe you aren't experiencing much problems with 10.5.1, but a lot of people are. AirPort problems etc.

Can you blame people for wanting this update so desperately so their Mac will work properly?
 

Eric S.

macrumors 68040
Feb 1, 2008
3,599
0
Santa Cruz Mountains, California
I just wish companies (like Apple) wouldn't rush their freaking product to market, most especially when one of their major claims to fame is that it's supposed to be more stable and dependable than the alternative.

I think that a major system software release, especially one with as much new code as Leopard has, is always going to have issues when it hits the field. No matter how good a company's QA cycle may be, it just won't have the resources (in either time or equipment) to duplicate all of the customer scenarios. Also the volume of customers will bang on the release 1000 times harder than the QA team can.

Early adopters of either HW or SW have to expect that it comes with a period of instability. I think that we should reasonably expect that it takes about six months (2 or 3 minor upgrade cycles) for a release like Leopard to mature. The real problem comes if the SW still isn't stable after six months. That's when it will justifiably get a bad reputation as a lemon, and that can be hard to live down.

I have Leopard installed in a separate partition to start using its features but I won't switch from Tiger for main work until at least 10.5.2, and even then we'll have to see how that performs.
 

seashellz2

macrumors member
Dec 12, 2006
93
0
several seeds with "no known issues" in the past couple weeks, and they havent released it?


idea: they should junk the original 10.5/1 and release a fully fixed and re-integrated 10.5.2 combo disc/download.

I dont think layering patches (10.5.2) on top of a crappy foundation (10.5) is a good idea.
just more things to go wrong/not intermesh --start fresh.
 

MacsAttack

macrumors 6502a
Jul 2, 2006
825
0
Scotland
several seeds with "no known issues" in the past couple weeks, and they havent released it?


idea: they should junk the original 10.5/1 and release a fully fixed and re-integrated 10.5.2 combo disc.

I dont think layering patches (10.5.2) on top of a crappy foundation (10.5) is a good idea.
just more things to go wrong/not intermesh --start fresh.

I've got a wild theory that they are holding off 10.5.2 to go with new MacBook Pros... and that they will get announced same time as the iPhone SDK - so look for a major media event right at the end of February.

...or 10.5.2 may just be out next Tuesday...

Perhaps Apple and MicroSoft are playing chicken with their next update to see who blinks first. For Vista SP1 is make of break. For Leopard, Apple has to squish as many issues as possible (the .2 release is usually the point where OS X is ready for prime time).
 

newtech

macrumors 6502
Jun 2, 2007
317
0
several seeds with "no known issues" in the past couple weeks, and they havent released it?


idea: they should junk the original 10.5/1 and release a fully fixed and re-integrated 10.5.2 combo disc/download.

I dont think layering patches (10.5.2) on top of a crappy foundation (10.5) is a good idea.
just more things to go wrong/not intermesh --start fresh.

What you suggest won't happen until 10.6. Minor point releases are always fixes/patches to existing code. Newly recompiled code comes in major point releases. Major architectural changes only come in new major revisions ( ie 9->X )
 

kaiwai

macrumors 6502a
Oct 21, 2007
709
0
Christchurch
several seeds with "no known issues" in the past couple weeks, and they havent released it?

Do you even know what 'no known issues' means? it means that they've shipped a build which has no issues that are confirmed (aka known). There is a big difference between someone reporting a bug and Apple tracking down the bug, confirming the bug and then fixing it. Yes, I"m sure there are bugs reported by people, but until Apple is able to confirm that the bug exists and the cause of that bug, it isn't classed as a known problem.

idea: they should junk the original 10.5/1 and release a fully fixed and re-integrated 10.5.2 combo disc/download.

And what would that achieve? nothing.

I dont think layering patches (10.5.2) on top of a crappy foundation (10.5) is a good idea.
just more things to go wrong/not intermesh --start fresh.

What has that got to do with the price of fish? if there was a crappy foundation in terms of design then you'll need to wait for a major revision. There is nothing structurally wrong with Mac OS X 10.5, the only thing wrong with it is bugs and some features that are lacking (turning off transparent menu etc); both of which are being addressed in this update.
 
Clearly, no commercial OS vendor can literally wait "forever" before releasing a product.

For that matter, non-commercial though they are in large part, even Linux distro vendors cannot wait "forever".

However, there's also clearly a difference between "waiting forever" and establishing an arbitrary deadline which has far less to do with technology and far more to do either with the size of someone's... erm, ego, or some kind of marketing timetable.

The honest truth is that the general public does not need any particular revision to any particular operating system. Companies need to release something so they have something to show on the books as of such-and-such a date. Now, I'm not trying to say a company should just not worry about ever recouping R&D costs, but they would be much better served (as would their customers) by taking the technologically correct amount of time to be sure what they want to recoup on is really ready to help them do that, not provide a further boat anchor for monies to be spent on further fixes on an already-deployed product, and the cloaked costs of customer frustration, only a portion of which shows up in the form of needless tech support calls and/or expenditures of store-level "Genius" scheduling.

And given the fact that Apple operates in the "sealed compartment" mode ubiquitous to most proprietary software development, it would behoove them in that respect as well to take their time, since they are unwilling to allow the sort of level of peer review which surrounds OSS-based offerings, particularly those more major projects, such as operating systems.
 

newtech

macrumors 6502
Jun 2, 2007
317
0
Ummm...

1 Apple does not realize any profits from minor point updates

2 Seeding to NDA'd developers is as close to a peer review as any proprietary commercial product will ever get.

3 Third party software is a MAJOR reason a specific OS revision may be needed.

4 Minor point updates are very closely connected to ongoing R&D for major point and revision updates.
 

Macintosh Man

macrumors newbie
Jan 31, 2008
8
0
All I can say is that I hope 10.5.2 fixes all the FU!@#$ issues with Logic 8... I am still perplexed at the lack of support for Logic Studio. It is as though Apple is so damn busy doing other things that they have totally forgotten about it. If you won't take my word for it, go to the Apple discussion board and look at all the posts about the overload issues in Logic 8.0.1. I have a brand new 8 core with 10GB of RAM and Logic runs like I turtle. I spent most of the night trying to figure out if it is Logic or 10.5.1....? That is the question of the day, is Logic just buggy, or is it a combo of Logic and 10.5.1??? Please feel free to post your thoughts. PLEASE COME 10.5.2 and LOGIC 8.0.2!!!

I don't know much about logic studio but it it runs great on Tiger but is slow on Leopard, then it's most likely Leopard and you'll need 10.5.2 which should make a difference.
 

MacArchi

macrumors newbie
Jan 30, 2008
23
0
Ummm...

1 Apple does not realize any profits from minor point updates

If you read a number of the posts here you will appreciate that there is a large number of people waiting for 10.5.2 before they buy/invest in new hardware.
 

Roadstar

macrumors 68000
Sep 24, 2006
1,718
2,186
Vantaa, Finland
sometimes when I close a not responding app, its icon remains on the dock and the system believes its still running despite the fact that Activity Monitor doesn't display the process running! The only way to get past this is to kill the process Windowserver but that closes everything thats running..this is very annoying and wasnt there in tiger

If it's only the Dock that believes the app is still running, doesn't killall Dock help? Since you mention that Activity Monitor doesn't display the process any more, I'd suspect it's only Dock that's misbehaving and it can be killed (it restarts automatically) without having to bring Windowserver down.
 

petvas

macrumors 603
Jul 20, 2006
5,479
1,807
Munich, Germany
If it's only the Dock that believes the app is still running, doesn't killall Dock help? Since you mention that Activity Monitor doesn't display the process any more, I'd suspect it's only Dock that's misbehaving and it can be killed (it restarts automatically) without having to bring Windowserver down.

Killing Dock doesn't help. The only way to get past this is by killing Windowserver. This happens a couple of times every week...
 

seashellz2

macrumors member
Dec 12, 2006
93
0
Do you even know what 'no known issues' means? it means that they've shipped a build which has no issues that are confirmed (aka known). There is a big difference between someone reporting a bug and Apple tracking down the bug, confirming the bug and then fixing it. Yes, I"m sure there are bugs reported by people, but until Apple is able to confirm that the bug exists and the cause of that bug, it isn't classed as a known problem.



And what would that achieve? nothing.



What has that got to do with the price of fish? if there was a crappy foundation in terms of design then you'll need to wait for a major revision. There is nothing structurally wrong with Mac OS X 10.5, the only thing wrong with it is bugs and some features that are lacking (turning off transparent menu etc); both of which are being addressed in this update.
---
So.... when did God die and make YOU the know-it-all big mouth of the universe? You might, with just a LITTLE finesse and a bit of an IQ point these errors out-after all, im not Bill Gates, smeghead.
 

kabunaru

Guest
Jan 28, 2008
3,226
5
So, when do you guys think Mac OS 10.5.2 will come? This Tuesday or Friday?
There's been rumors that a new MacBook Pro will come in two weeks and might require Mac OS 10.5.2.
 
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