Apple Criticized for 'Fundamentally Misguided' Approach to Stage Manager in iPadOS 16

[spinedoc77]

Such a weird implementation for something that has been around for 30+ years. I have a 55" monitor and I still don't want overlapping windows, much more so on a smaller monitor. So much skirting around making iOS a more robust OS with these addons every few years. Maybe next year they will have separate user account capability, hmm probably not.

 

[I7guy]

And that’s one of the reasons iPads will never become decent productive devices, nor a Laptop replacement, it’s mainly a device to doodle around, watch movies and play shabby games.

While on a Surface Tablet i can “also” fire up ClipStudioPaint, r[...]

While everybody in the house has a iphone, ipad and laptop, my wife conducts 99% of her business on her ipad.

For me when it comes to doodling around, watching movies and playing shabby games, the ipad comes out and the laptop goes away.

My kids each have an iphone, ipad and macbook. Doodling, watching, gaming ipad.

So, to each their own and their usage.

 

[theluggage]

So you're saying that turning the mobile iPad into a desktop computer is a good strategy?

Yeah! Brilliant idea (not). A few years ago I put my iPad into a keyboard case because it seemed like a good idea at the time.

A few months after that, I wondered why I wasn't using my iPad anymore.

Your mileage may vary, but for me it totally defeated the main advantage of the iPad - something you can easily use handheld or while slouched in a comfy chair - and turned it into a badly-designed "laptop" that was only usable while seated at a flat desk.

If you want a "crossover" device I think it would make more sense to produce a 2 in 1 - i.e. a proper clamshell laptop running MacOS with some mechanism for detaching or swivelling the screen to turn it into a tablet for running touch- or pen-based apps. Since MacOS can now run native iOS apps (and more of those would be usable on a 2-in-1 with a touchscreen) that could work nicely.

 

[jlc1978]

People will whine no matter what, it is unavoidable and happening now.

Of course. Give someone a 100 Euro note and some would whine it was not 5 20 Euro notes.

My thought is you use it with a keyboard and mouse, you can already do this, use a bluetooth keyboard and mouse so there is nothing new there. I agree using the iPad as the keyboard and trackpad itself would not be a good system.

It's not bad within the context of the device. I use a Magic keyboard with my iPad Pro and it's quite fine for when I want a portable device and don't need or want my Mac.

I would say when you start wanting the higher specs that is when you get a proper powerful laptop. I envision the iPad with a full MacOS when plugged into an external being a great option for business use with business apps like Microsoft Office, Apples variation, Outlook, etc.

The problem is you are tied to a desktop so you still need a laptop if you aren't at a desk; so an iPad running MacOS in that environment is redundant and frustrating since you now have files on the iPad and teh Mac so synchronizing becomes a problem if you edit on both devices. The cloud is not a solution either since you cannot ensure you always have access to it; and in some cases can't use it for security reasons.

I think a better solution is to make iPad apps feature compatible with their desktop versions. Instead of iPadOS Office being cripppled, make it like the desktop version. Instead of making the iPad run MacOS, make apps that work the same on both OS's. That way, the underlying OS, other than the touch capability, is transparent to the user.

 

[klasma]

It's a beta. That's where you try out ideas.

No, a beta is supposed to be feature-complete and is used to fix any remaining bugs in the implementation. Trying out ideas is not even alpha. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle

 

[jimbobb24]

On todays internet hard to know what are legit complaints and click bait.

 

[spinedoc77]

Bull. There’s nothing about the UI for this that needs intricate coordination with the hardware. Under the hood it does need the memory swap, but that’s a decades ago solved problem and it’s not the part people are complaining about.

Also, Apple has been messing up its UI design quite badly for years now, going back to before COVID.

Most importantly, there’s nothing forcing them to announce and ship the feature before it’s been better thought out and more mature. They need to set a higher bar for the state of their software before doing so.

They also need to go back and fix things they did poorly. At this rate, they keep accumulating technical debt to the point that things are going to be really crappy in a few years and they will have to publicly apologize and spend a year or two just righting recent wrongs.

That's one reason I'm confused why this is hardware limited, weren't we doing this 30+ years ago on now antiquated hardware?

 

[F27]

Apple never seems to get multi window right, Stage Manager looks like a horror show with auto resizing windows that constantly jump around and that ugly UI side dock that looks straight out of the early 2000’s. And they still haven’t sorted the badly placed “3 dots” spilt screen control.

I cannot believe that this is their showcase feature of iPadOS 16, I would have much preferred the Lock Screen customisation that iOS is getting.

 

[spinedoc77]

Microsoft can't figure out the tablet side in Windows, and Apple can't figure out the windows side in iPadOS.

Seems like this isn't going to change any time soon.

Depends on your perspective. I think Windows on a tablet works quite well. No it's not perfect, but it's nowhere near the atrocity Mac users make it out to be. Plus it can also work as a "dumb" tablet just fine for those who only want to do the simpler stuff like media and apps. Personally I don't buy the "MacOS would suffer as a touch OS" for a single second. But then again MacOS on desktop still sucks on desktop in many regards, a dockbar that really should be a taskbar, tiny windows management elements, etc., so at this point I'm not sure Apple could even handle making it a Touch OS.

 

[spinedoc77]

Stage Manager feels like a rush stolen from Windows Aero. They should have done better.

More like stolen from Windows 3.1 workgroup.

 

[nt5672]

These modern times people are
more tech savvy than ever. This damage control does not work with this generation. The average kid can code at the age of 12.

Act what you preach, listen to feedback and get your act together Apple!

Yeah, but does that code actually work. Based on what we are seeing from Apple these days, maybe they need to get some more experienced coders.

 

[macdisciple]

Ive tried it. Its a bit weird... its a different paradigm for working on a tablet for sure, but i dont think its fundamentally wrong.

Patience is key - lets see what Apple makes of it before its released.

True. Weird could mean it's uncomfortable now. Later, maybe not. We shall see.

 

[tobybrut]

And that’s one of the reasons iPads will never become decent productive devices, nor a Laptop replacement, it’s mainly a device to doodle around, watch movies and play shabby games.

While on a Surface Tablet i can “also” fire up ClipStudioPaint, run 3D Software like Solidworks, Maya, 3DSmax, Blender, ZBrush, UnrealEngine, Unity3D or Coding IDEs like VisualStudio, AndroidStudio, Jetbrains stuff.
I can fire up a decent Terminal and manage uncountable of Servers, VMs, Docker Containers, or simply crawl and analyze large log files, or plug multiple displays and open up a large Excel file, or simply play AAA games.
Plugin external Devices like CADMouse or external NVIDIA GPU to have even more power and Real-time Raytracing.

A good Windows tablet is far superior, iPad is a bit more comfy due to its castrated UX.

The ultimative Apple Tablet would be one that has different UX on demand.
Plug to a dock -> BAMM! -> macOS with decent cursor and Window Management
Remove from the dock -> BAMM! -> iPadOS with castrated UX
Terminal command or Settings Knob -> BAMM! -> Enable macOS for the geeks without Dock
And everybody is happy!

But this will probably never happen, because Apple is too greedy and too stubborn to listen to its users.
Instead of building the perfect Tablet they keep trying to reinvent the wheel and build UX that doesn’t work without crutches.

There are no good Windows tablets. I bought one and it was the worst purchase of the decade. it was slow, underpowered, and the most user hostile experience I’d ever seen. It was a mediocre laptop combined with the worst tablet in the history of mankind.

 

[theluggage]

While everybody in the house has a iphone, ipad and laptop, my wife conducts 99% of her business on her ipad.

...and is she crying out for "Stage manager" to make it work more like the Mac?

For me when it comes to doodling around, watching movies and playing shabby games, the ipad comes out and the laptop goes away.

...and are you crying out for "Stage manager" to make it work more like the Mac?

And that’s one of the reasons iPads will never become decent productive devices, nor a Laptop replacement

It doesn't have to be a laptop replacement to be a "decent productive device" for things that tablets are good at. The fundamental problem with Stage Manager is that it's trying to turn a good tablet into a bad desktop/laptop and is probably doomed to failure.

Reality is, I - like many computer users I know - have a tablet, a phone and a laptop (and sometimes a desktop and/or an e-reader, too). I've sometimes traveled with a laptop, tablet, phone and Kindle because they're all the best tool for certain jobs - and why not, when they take up less space and weight together than the G3 Powerbook I used to cart around...?

Apple seem to be pulling in two contradictory directions - on the one hand, sensible stuff like handoff, sidecar, universal control and individual apps like Logic Remote that help Macs and iPads work together and play to their individual strengths while, on the other hand, making overpowered iPads and trying to shoehorn desktop features like Stage Manager into them, as if they're trying to compete with the MacBook Air.

 

[anthony13]

Speaking strictly for macOS, resizing and organizing windows is one of the more fun parts of a long work session. I certainly dont want gimmicky software trying to accomplish that for me. Always be knolling.

 

[wonderings]

The problem is you are tied to a desktop so you still need a laptop if you aren't at a desk; so an iPad running MacOS in that environment is redundant and frustrating since you now have files on the iPad and teh Mac so synchronizing becomes a problem if you edit on both devices. The cloud is not a solution either since you cannot ensure you always have access to it; and in some cases can't use it for security reasons.

I think a better solution is to make iPad apps feature compatible with their desktop versions. Instead of iPadOS Office being cripppled, make it like the desktop version. Instead of making the iPad run MacOS, make apps that work the same on both OS's. That way, the underlying OS, other than the touch capability, is transparent to the user.

I did envision that the files would be seen cross the 2 modes, desktop and mobile Mac OS. So if I save or work on a file in Word while in a desktop OS mode when I am portable again on the iPad I would just navigate to the file and run on the iPad version of Word, and same for any other app that supports both. Would probably take a little finagling with file management to make it a fluid back and forth system

 

[tobybrut]

Of course it is. Do you think I pulled that statement out of my behind?

Look on this very website you're on:

Apple to Delay iPadOS 16 Launch Until October

Apple is planning to delay the launch of iPadOS 16 until October, which means the iPad software will not launch alongside iOS 16 in September as it...

www.macrumors.com

Don’t believe the rumor. If iPadOS were actually being delayed, it wouldn’t still have a ‘b’ on the end of its build number and wouldn’t be on a one-week beta cycle. Note that macOS, which is almost always released in October, is still in a 2-week beta cycle. I even predicted the iPhone event would be on Labor Day week just by looking at the build numbers. Apple tends to move up the alphabet with the final beta having an ‘a’ next to it. Occasionally, they’ll skip letters or repeat letters if they feel they need to move the release date. But with the current beta having a ‘b’, next week’s beta will have an ‘a’ at the end, with the version on August 29 being Release Candidate 1. Apple tends to have its iPhone keynote around the time of RC1 and releases the final version shortly after the keynote, sometimes within a day.

If Apple deems Stage Manager to not be ready, they’ll simply release iPadOS 16.0 with a little (beta) label next to the on/off switch for Stage Manager, exactly the same thing they did with Universal Control. There’s no way they’re going to delay iPadOS 16 when they need it for the iPad 10 (base iPad) in September. When they feel it’s ready, they’ll take off the (beta) label in 16.1 or 16.2 or whenever.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

After being on the Ventura beta for almost two months now, here's my hot take:

Stage Manager should be delayed to a later patch. The feature is fantastic and it's my preferred window management system in macOS now, but it's clearly not ready. It has too many issues, from opening the wrong apps, to how it can only handle 5 apps at once, to the fact it treats notifications as windows so any app centric notifications you get are tabbed in Stage Manager!

I can't speak on the iPad's behalf (because I'm sure you all know my stance about iPadOS) but I will say if Stage Manager is gonna be on iPadOS, they need to add the traffic light buttons to windows. Not having those buttons on iPadOS windows in a "desktop mode" is stupid and makes window management more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[ct2k7]

Collaboration is easier in person.

But doesn’t block work being done.

 

[tobybrut]

No, a beta is supposed to be feature-complete and is used to fix any remaining bugs in the implementation. Trying out ideas is not even alpha. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle

You’re telling a software engineer what a beta is. Thanks. I’ll let all my fellow engineers know they’ve been wrong all their lives. Betas are rarely complete. Nobody uses Wikipedia as any sort of authority on any subject.

By engineer definition, an alpha is considered in-house and/or select recipients. A beta is a software release to a wider audience or general public (the choice is up to the company what the scope is).

 

[fwmireault]

In my opinion, and after some time using it, Stage Manager as it is right now is fine when used on the same screen, navigation between windows is easy and intuitive. But I agree that the way to move a window from a display to an other is clunky at best.

So for me, we’re talking about minor UI ajustements, but I agree that apple should take its time here

 

[jlc1978]

I did envision that the files would be seen cross the 2 modes, desktop and mobile Mac OS. So if I save or work on a file in Word while in a desktop OS mode when I am portable again on the iPad I would just navigate to the file and run on the iPad version of Word, and same for any other app that supports both. Would probably take a little finagling with file management to make it a fluid back and forth system

Yup. However, the iPad and Mac versions would need to be 100% compatible, unlike today.

 

[I7guy]

...and is she crying out for "Stage manager" to make it work more like the Mac?

No. Wife couldn't care less about stage manager. The reply was in reference to the ipad being a "doodle" computer.

...and are you crying out for "Stage manager" to make it work more like the Mac?

No. I couldn't care either. But I would like to see what Apple could implement for an m1 ipad.

It doesn't have to be a laptop replacement to be a "decent productive device" for things that tablets are good at. The fundamental problem with Stage Manager is that it's trying to turn a good tablet into a bad desktop/laptop and is probably doomed to failure.

As long as stage manager is an option. Use it or not.

Reality is, I - like many computer users I know - have a tablet, a phone and a laptop (and sometimes a desktop and/or an e-reader, too).

Yeah. I have a phone, 2 laptops, 2 ipads and a decently powerful desktop.

I've sometimes traveled with a laptop, tablet, phone and Kindle because they're all the best tool for certain jobs - and why not, when they take up less space and weight together than the G3 Powerbook I used to cart around...?

Sure. I always travel with a phone, laptop and tablet.

Apple seem to be pulling in two contradictory directions - on the one hand, sensible stuff like handoff, sidecar, universal control and individual apps like Logic Remote that help Macs and iPads work together and play to their individual strengths while, on the other hand, making overpowered iPads and trying to shoehorn desktop features like Stage Manager into them, as if they're trying to compete with the MacBook Air.

I would like to see what stage manager can offer. But as I said, it should be optional.

 

[tobybrut]

In my opinion, and after some time using it, Stage Manager as it is right now is fine when used on the same screen, navigation between windows is easy and intuitive. But I agree that the way to move a window from a display to an other is clunky at best.

So for me, we’re talking about minor UI ajustements, but I agree that apple should take its time here

Globe-control-backslash is your friend. Try it. It’s the keyboard combo to swap the current app to the other monitor. Forget hitting those three dots. That’s a pain.

 

[xraydoc]

If you can’t do it well on a small screen, then don‘t do it (on small screens). It‘s what Apple has often done: they‘d rather withhold functionality from users than giving them a sub-par experience.

How's it not done well? You can hide the left-side mini windows (the Manager part of the Stage, I guess). You can show or hide the dock. You can resize the windows and move them left or right. Pretty much how it works on macOS. Not quite as freeform as macOS, but most iPad apps aren't really written with arbitrary window sizes in mind -- perhaps that will change as developers optimize their apps for iPadOS 16.

I've not played with it too much on an external display to know all of its potential. I know I've done two good-sized windows next to each other, and of course several overlapping windows. Haven't tried to see if it'll do a 2x2 grid of windows, or a 1+2 arrangement, but again, it's not macOS, so the fact that we've gotten this far is pretty good. I'll try it some more later today.

It seems like people are expecting iPadOS 16 and Stage Manager to be macOS. That's clearly not Apple's plan.

Now. whether Apple should put macOS on the M1 iPads is a whole different discussion (one I'm happy to have, actually, because I'd love such a thing, and clearly if macOS can run with awesome performance on an M1 MacBook Air, it could run with similar performance on an M1 iPad Pro with essentially identical internal hardware).