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Why do I think he might be a troll?

Indicator A: Local paper with no link to the article.

Indicator B: Recently registered.

Indicator C: First post.

Indicator D: As of this time, only one post.

Enough said. ;)

Or perhaps he didn't realise that its good practice to provide a URL to articles?

You are right though, we need to read the article in full, instead of his interpretation alone.
 
He's ( the original poster ) is right, you can't just put a load of developers on a software project in a short space of time - you'll overwhelm the project and cause more delays. Has to be well managed process. Any new developers need time to ramp up, and its the existing developers who will help in that process.

There is a saying for this situation:
"Adding fuel to feed the fire".

When Apple saw that iPhone was going to be late, they just could not hire say, 50 new developers for the 10.5 and iPhone project and hope to reap the immediate benefits. It takes time for all these new developers to be 100% productive. Developers could be the best in the world, but on new projects they are still going to need ramp up time.



----------
Original Quote:
There's only so much you can do when you're relatively low-staffed, particularly when you need expert-level workers to support a new project (like software integration of the iPhone and AppleTV). You can't just hire new programmers and hit the ground running.

forgive me, these excuses are just ridiculous, its not like apple is poor, its not like they didn't borrow >80% codes from Unix projects, understaffed? what prevents them from hiring more? SJ wants to collect more money than paying more developer? or what?

Its ironic when comes down to apple's failure, u can think of these "reasons" rather than simply say " a little bit more ambitious plan for OSX 10.5 became too big for them to handle on time". Their developers maybe just not that brilliant as ppl expected, is that so hard to admit?
 
Nice first post.

Nothing like being a troll...
Who's being the troll? Someone says something you don't like and they're branded a troll? Not a very pleasant response.

I agree with that article. Its obvious that Apple is overextended, they're admitting that they can't get both done on time. They are relatively small for all the things they're trying to accomplish. I do worry that they are over reaching and may end up failing in all of them.
 
If you can't afford to do it right, you can't afford to do it twice...

I too am bummed about Leopard's delay. I was hoping to buy a MacPro around June or July and get Leopard included. I will probably still buy the MP and just wait for Leopard. My 6 year old G4 is running on fumes otherwise I'd wait until October. But if it means more time for Apple to iron out any kinks, I'd rather have them do it right.
 
Apple started at least one OS10 project and abandoned development. The OSX we know today was taken from NeXT. So there was at least one failed project and a new OS10 project restarted - much like Vista.
You could hardly call neXT a failure, It definitely had itself a niche. Apple bought NeXT, because it was actually a really great OS based on yet another great OS.
Microsoft are far too ambitious in their targets which is why Vista failed, initially and had to be restarted from the Windows 2003 code base. Apple create software but their software is a lot of simpler than microsoft, but its just good enough for the average Apple consumer. Apple get a lot of their code for 'free' ( i.e., provided by opensource ). Overall, Microsoft create far more complex software than Apple do.
You say that like it's a good thing. complex software is often BAD. You criticize Apple for using existing saftware as a basis for their work, yet MS is far worse when it comes to doing this. XP is based heavily on NT technology, Windows Server 2003 is also based in large part on that base, and thus Vista...
For example:

* SQL Server ( enterprise ) - far more complex than Apple's desktop database ( sorry I forget the name )
* .Net and Visual Studio - far exceeds the complexity of (Editor) XCode / Objective C - the COM+ / .Net frameworks. Generally you would chose Java or .net for your enterprise solution, not ObjectiveC - it just doesn't have the flexibility and requirements.
You're comparing apples to oranges here. XCode is free software, and .NET, last time I checked, is not exactly cheap ($400-$1000). I don't think SQL Server is either (looks like its $10k+). Why not compare that to Oracle or something? Apple is clearly not competing in these markets, so it's really pointless to compare their free/bundled products with MS's expensive enterprise solutions.
* OSX v Windows. Apple inherit a lot of the code base from BSD and put an interface on top ( its a bit more than that - but microsoft create from ground up ( initially) whilst Apple inherit a very good code base - foundation on which to develop from ). Microsoft's approach may not be the best, however. Unix is tried and tested, and very good.
Microsoft based Windows on DOS, and they have buried themselves in legacy code ever since. Please explain to me how that it design from the ground up. Apple may use Darwin, but OS X is a very significant amount of work, much more extensive than even X11 and KDE/GNOME, which are pretty huge software projects.
* Office v iWork. Office is far more complex and offers vastly more functionality than iWork which comprises of only word processor plus presentation. MS Office is far suited towards business needs than iWork, which is limited in comparison. iWork is for the consumer.
The difference, again, is reflected in the cost of the products. iWork is actually pretty sharp software where MS Office 2007 can just be baffling.
I'm naming just three examples, there are plenty of others. Microsoft is in the software game, Apple primarily aren't - some software, but majority hardware based.
Yeah, there are plenty of others. Final Cut Pro is not nearly as complex as MS's Movie Maker, nor is Apple's Logic (granted they bought this one), or even garageBand, nearly as complex as MS's WAV editor.

Seriously, when you look at the iLife suite, not to even mention Aperture, Logic, all the flavors of Final Cut, it becomes clear that claiming that Apple develops "simpler" stuff than MS is a completely uninformed statement. Apple develops towards a different consumer base, in general, and they are very successful in that market, just as MS has no doubt met with considerable success with Visual Studio, etc.

The OS example is the only comparable one, and there is no question that Apple has a superior product by most measures (other than things like market share, etc. that have nothing to do with product quality).
 
Thats u.s marketshare, not world wide. A huge difference.

95% of people do not use Macs.

5% is pitiful. Its a bug.

India produces a cloud of red muck that is 7 times the size of the country drifting over the earth. World-wide "market" share is not the only thing to be concerned about. Quality counts.
btw, has Stella EVER been right? Is "she" actually Paul Thurrot? Or John Dvorak?
 
I'm not calling Next a failure.. please highlight where I said it was :)

The OS10 we know today was *NOT* the first OS10 project ( or Next Gen Mac OS ), there was at least one abandoned attempt before the OSX10 we know today.

So the rest of your paragraph is mute, because you didn't understand my post and your putting words into my mouth - things that I did simply did not say.

You could hardly call neXT a failure, It definitely had itself a niche. Apple bought NeXT, because it was actually a really great OS based on yet another great OS.You say that like it's a good thing. complex software is often BAD. You criticize Apple for using existing saftware as a basis for their work, yet MS is far worse when it comes to doing this. XP is based heavily on NT technology, Windows Server 2003 is also based in large part on that base, and thus Vista...


.NET is vastly more complex than XCode. .Net is a entire framework for building applications of all types, from desktop, to distributed applications - like Java / J2EE. I very much doubt you could write such applications with XCode. Apple offers WebObjects, but I believe you still have to pay for it.

Again, you misunderstand my post. I'm comparing that *over all* ( again, some thing you missed ) , microsoft write more complex software than Apple does.

You're comparing apples to oranges here. XCode is free software, and .NET, last time I checked, is not exactly cheap ($400-$1000). I don't think SQL Server is either (looks like its $10k+). Why not compare that to Oracle or something?

The fact is , if you look at Apple product range v microsoft product range, microsoft make more complex software, overall. Its not misinformed, its FACT ( hence, that comparison software list in my OP ).

Microsoft is a mainly a software company, whilst apple is predominately a hardware company and that shows through each product ranges.

The target markets - yes, that it was I was saying, Apple write software ( with the exception of its Pro Apps ) aimed at consumers. Microsoft product range is consumer ( a little ) but also for businesses.

Seriously, when you look at the iLife suite, not to even mention Aperture, Logic, all the flavors of Final Cut, it becomes clear that claiming that Apple develops "simpler" stuff than MS is a completely uninformed statement. Apple develops towards a different consumer base, in general, and they are very successful in that market, just as MS has no doubt met with considerable success with Visual Studio, etc.

The OS example is the only comparable one, and there is no question that Apple has a superior product by most measures (other than things like market share, etc. that have nothing to do with product quality).
[/QUOTE]

My point was that when planning Vista, microsoft was way too optimistic in its goals and thats why it failed. However Apple on the whole take a different approach, their software is more incremental. Apple don't go for the whole nine yards and thus you don't tend to see wholesale changes from one version of OSX10 to another ( unlike Vista ). Apple will more likely get its software out on time due to this , rather than microsoft's approach - Windows 95 ( late - should have been released 93 ), Vista....
 
India produces a cloud of red muck that is 7 times the size of the country drifting over the earth. World-wide "market" share is not the only thing to be concerned about. Quality counts.

Quality alone won't keep a company in business. Markshare isn't the only thing to be concerned about but that goes for quality too.

BetaMax was better quality than VHS. But VHS won the day - for a variety of reasons.

I'm going to use the $299 PC example. If all someone wants to do is email, internet, word processing then that PC will do just fine for them. There is no need for them to spend $1k ( or there abouts ) on a Mac. Its overkill. This individual does not require the extra quality that a Mac offers. Target markets and consumer needs.

btw, has Stella EVER been right? Is "she" actually Paul Thurrot? Or John Dvorak?

I'm not going to respond to such a lame statement. PS. stella isn't a girl.
 
Stella

I definitely misunderstood what you meant by "abandoned development," and I thought you were talking about NeXT OS, which would have implied its failure. My Apologies.

Nevertheless, you used that as a springboard to completely disregard my post. You didn't respond to my SIGNIFICANT examples of HUGELY complex software in Logic, Final Cut *, iMovie, GarageBand... Microsoft does not compete in this area, just as Apple does not compete with enterprise databasing or .NET stuff. Moreover, Vista offers few or no valuable features over OS X as a result of its complexity. That was my point.

MS does make much more software than Apple, and it does tend to be feature rich, but Apple's software that is offered in a similar price range and for professionals in particular is nothing to shake a fist at. your fundamental flaw in your examples is that you compared products with very different targets.
 
.NET is vastly more complex than XCode. .Net is a entire framework for building applications of all types, from desktop, to distributed applications - like Java / J2EE. I very much doubt you could write such applications with XCode. Apple offers WebObjects, but I believe you still have to pay for it.

Stella--

To put that more positively, you do not know. ;)

Best,

Bob
 
You didn't respond to my SIGNIFICANT examples of HUGELY complex software in Logic, Final Cut *, iMovie, GarageBand... Microsoft does not compete in this area, just as Apple does not compete with enterprise databasing or .NET stuff.
Microsoft, as a company, does not have to compete with Apple in this aspect. XP/Vista use is widespread enough that 3rd party developers/companies can profit by writing their own software for purchase, in which many companies don't on a Mac. Microsoft doesn't need to compete with Apple with companies like Avid and Adobe out there that develop very good video/photo editing software on their own.
 
In Apple's statement they said Leopard "was going to be released in June at the WWDC".

Think about that..

IF they were going to release it in June there MUST be "secret stuff" missing from the dev seeds.

Apple planned on showing off that secret stuff at NAB with a shipping date during WWDC07.This would have given developers two months to work out their apps with the secret stuff included in a dev seed posted on or around the same day that 9a410 was posted.Apple saw that this "secret stuff" was bogging down the process and decided to put it off until October.
Some of this "secret stuff" includes a NEW..BRAND NEW Quicktime engine.One that has AC-3,Dolby Digital Codecs.FLAC support.Bittorrent for peer to peer colaboration in the audio/video realm.

This engine MUST work flawlessly with iTunes AND the NEW Finder/Spotlight/QuickLook..These three MUST work in tandem because when you open the new Finder it's all there.In list view.In Column view AND..More importantly in ICON view because CoverFlow is integrated..

Apple decided that this was not doable in the timeframe given because the iPhone is being worked on still.

At least thats the excuse Apple gave..

I don't buy it..

IF..I say IF..The new QT engine were working correctly several of the listed bugs would be scratched off the list..

Now lets talk filesystem..

Apple wants OS 10.5 to be UNIX certified..This is why they are working on the ZFS.Apple wants it to be an integral part of the Kernel.THAT is the other sticky widget causing the delay.

Now the real important part.

Apple wants to be able to use fast O/S application switching between the various spaces environment.In otherwords let's say you have four spaces running.One space has the app iTunes on it.Another has Mail.A third would have MS Vista on it.Whenever you "switch" from one space to the other that specific space takes the forefront in resources putting the others on the back burner.

This is another sticky widget..

Apple thought they could do it in the released timeframe.They can't.
It may have a small part to do with the iPhone but honestly it's because OS 10.5.Which I said earlier should actually be OS 11.Is becoming a daunting task.



this is a "speculation".Take it for whatever you choose to take it as.
 
meow

Does any of this matter?

I thought that this thread was about the Leopard Delay

Personally, I would rather wait a few months than get an incomplete OS. Tiger works great, no problems. Maybe I am missing the big picture.

:confused: :eek:
 
Okay, everyone here gets it. You don't like the iPhone. Great. No need to be a broken record.

I have some good news for you, btw. No one is going to make you buy one, or care if you don't. Have a nice weekend.

I was just hopping on the back of somebody elses joke there. Merely extending their joke, if you will. I'm glad everybody gets it.

I have some good news for you also, btw. I have an IQ higher than room temperature. And my weekend is awesome so far! Have a nice one yourself.
 
I did respond. I said "Overall microsoft make more complex software than Apple" and that there are exceptions.


Stella

MS does make much more software than Apple, and it does tend to be feature rich, but Apple's software that is offered in a similar price range and for professionals in particular is nothing to shake a fist at. your fundamental flaw in your examples is that you compared products with very different targets.

That was my point :)

I did compare products, but only showing their complexity which did come out in the example. Yes, the target markets were different. Yes, maybe the example was flawed.


Stella--

To put that more positively, you do not know. ;)

Best,

Bob
Really.

So tell me, how is XCode environment more complex than .Net environment?

In your response, think 'application framework' - which is what I'm getting at.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework
 
Really.

So tell me, how is XCode environment more complex than .Net environment?

In your response, think 'application framework' - which is what I'm getting at.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework

XCode is an IDE. The .NET framework is a framework. All that can be done in the .NET framework can be done with Apple's frameworks (aside from web pages, which aren't Apple's market - WebObjects hasn't been updated in a long time, I think).

Apple's frameworks include Core Data, Core Video, etc. And also, when it comes to some aspects of programming, simpler is better. A "complex environment" is a bad idea, generally.

And ANY Windows program you can create in Visual Studio you can probably also create a Mac version in XCode. Autodesk's Maya (a VERY VERY complicated program - too complicated, actually), is compiled in XCode (for their Mac version, at least).
 
Yes, I know XCode is primarily an IDE, but its a bit more than that too. The "XCode package" does include the rest of the development environment e.g, the SDKs which provide access to the Apple frameworks.

When you use .NET you generally use Visual Studio IDE.

When I mean complex - I meant that .Net includes stuff that XCode ( SDK ) doesn't provide such as the enterprise components - i.e., the equivalent of J2EE. ( But all that is out the scope of the XCode environment - .Net is more encompassing than XCode SDK environment - use Java.).

( Isn't WebObjects Java?

Anyone trying to develop Java apps using XCode needs their head looking at ( Use Eclipse or something !)
)

--
My original comparison between Apple and microsoft is lost in this thread. Microsoft are too amibitous, thus Vista was late, Apple aren't, so OSX isn't generally 'late'.

XCode is an IDE. The .NET framework is a framework. All that can be done in the .NET framework can be done with Apple's frameworks (aside from web pages, which aren't Apple's market - WebObjects hasn't been updated in a long time, I think).

Apple's frameworks include Core Data, Core Video, etc. And also, when it comes to some aspects of programming, simpler is better. A "complex environment" is a bad idea, generally.

And ANY Windows program you can create in Visual Studio you can probably also create a Mac version in XCode. Autodesk's Maya (a VERY VERY complicated program - too complicated, actually), is compiled in XCode (for their Mac version, at least).
 
Stella--

You said "I very much doubt..." I was merely pointing out that your statement means you do not know. You may believe your statement (and I have no doubt that you do), but your belief does not convert it to truth--even though it may be true.

As to the rest--not my field at all.

Best,

Bob
 
Yawn...
Comments:
a) 10.4 wasn't that much better than 10.3. 10.5 likely won't be enormously better than 10.4.
b) I think the marketing people have a lot of people hypnotized.
c) The benefit of delay I see is that we will, perhaps, see one more refinement of 10.4. (10.4.91?)

Well from a subjective standpoint it's easy to say "OS Blah 3.0 isn't much of an upgrade from OS Blah 2.0" without setting some sort of metric or a scale about what's "ernormously" better. I'm sure developers will disagree with you concerning the jump from 10.3-10.4

Core Data
Core Image
Core Video
Spotlight

Alone have transformed what you can do with apps and how your manage your data and how you access your data via metadata.

At the surface you can easily look at something that is very complex and view it trivially. IMO genius is the ability to make the complex simple and Apple does a lot of making complex things (Time Machine-snapshots, backup) easy.

Leopard is a larger leap forward than Tiger was from panther. If you want to know what's been updated. EVERYTHING. They took the 64-bit support from the Unix layer all the way up. Everything is faster and more full featured. If they need another 4 months to polish things. Have at it.

If people think this is about hypnotization then please tell me where I haven't gotten value in Tiger and where I won't get value in Leopard with specificity from a broad view. Anyone can say "I don't use search or backup or play audio" as a nice "get out of jail" card but computers users are varied and if something doesn't have value or merit then the the masses should generally come to this same consensus.
 
Apple thought they could do it in the released timeframe.They can't.
It may have a small part to do with the iPhone but honestly it's because OS 10.5.Which I said earlier should actually be OS 11.Is becoming a daunting task.

Just wondering. Has they ever confirmed that the final product will be called 10.5? Maybe they will decide to call it OS XI after all -- it's the first one since 10.0 that takes more than a year to develop.
 
XI?? - Doubtful!

Just wondering. Has they ever confirmed that the final product will be called 10.5? Maybe they will decide to call it OS XI after all -- it's the first one since 10.0 that takes more than a year to develop.

I don't think so. Steve Jobs stated a couple years ago, when they announced that they would be transitioning to Intel Proccessors, that "Mac OS X has set Apple up for the next 20 years. -- Personally I think 20 years may be a bit long, but I don't think Apple will move on quite yet. Besides, can you imagine saying Mac OS XI?? That's just weird.
 
I looked at nintendo sites earlier and with all the new game announcements i was in a great mood,
this brought me down :(

might as well wait for penryn macbooks...
 
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