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I read an article in my local paper today about the delay with Apple. They stated that Apple is too small a company compared to Hewlett Packard and IBM to be making such things as the iPhone and Leopard in tandem, in regards to employees etc. I just hope that Apple don't get too excited in the future about new gizmos and gadgets and leave out on the thing that got them there in the first place: computers!
 
I read an article in my local paper today about the delay with Apple. They stated that Apple is too small a company compared to Hewlett Packard and IBM to be making such things as the iPhone and Leopard in tandem, in regards to employees etc. I just hope that Apple don't get too excited in the future about new gizmos and gadgets and leave out on the thing that got them there in the first place: computers!
Nice first post.

Nothing like being a troll...
 
Nice first post.

Nothing like being a troll...

but sorta true. I really do hope Apple doesn't start going too crazy into other product lines and forget about its computers :( I highly doubt it will but it seems that the more diversified a company gets, the more it forgets about the little things.


Anyway, this sucks quite frankly. I just sold my macbook and was all stoked to get a new one when Leopard comes out this summer now its been delayed until October so I will have to buy a laptop before then (for school) and fork out $150 for the upgrade....thanks :apple: It better be damn good.
 
There's been articles about this, Vista eating at Apple marketshare, go google.
Actually, the only statistical data suggests that Apple sales aren't increasing as quickly as Vista sales (no real surprise there, since there's nothing new for Apple to sell). It's also based on one month of data. Windows Vista market share, starting from zero, is taking market share from everyone, because they're all slices of the same pie.
The fact that is that people are pointing fingers at Vista being incredibly late, but these people also forget that it took Apple a long time to get OS10 out the door.
Yes, but OS X was not delivered as a public announcement with massive developer ramp-up and release announcements. They worked on it until it was ready for the public beta stage, in 2000. It was released in 2001.

Vista on the other hand was announced, given flowcharts and business projections and release date announcements as early as 2001. It's been available to developers since 2002, along with pie-in-the-sky promises about worthwhile new features, almost none of which were delivered. Microsoft strung people along by making announcements based on ideas, not based on achievements. It didn't ship to consumers until 2007. Of course, if they hadn't announced features, people would have jumped ship because of low momentum and increasing delays. What they did was a calculated business move, but a massive industry backfire. Apple's delay announcement is a pretty typical delay announcement, with only rabid bloggers and forum whiners really upset. Developers and industry professionals haven't cried out in rage, and they won't.

If you're going to do something completely in public, you run the risk of being laughed at for your collossal failures. If you keep things hidden, you run the risk of not enticing enough people and losing some potential customers. But you can't base your "fairness in mockery" standards on hindsight. OS X was widely anticipated, but never given a shipping announcement. There was nothing to mock, because no indications had been made.
If people starting knocking other companies, and contrasting Apple, then you'd better make sure that Apple haven't done the same...
Every company has delayed projects and screwed up development. There's no such thing as someone free from hypocrisy. The entire industry has made Microsoft's massive failure a running joke because of the scale of it. When you get right down to it, everyone has screwed up. If you require a spotless record to make fun of someone, then everyone should be silent.

Both projects shared similar problems: both projects were late for various reasons, both involved rewrites etc.
One project had private, internal setbacks; the other project made public promises and failed to deliver, month after month and feature after feature in an almost unprecedented volume. They're not really similar at all, except in the way that all delays are similar.
Vista was a major re-write. OSX10.1, OSX10...5 were based upon 10.0 and so didn't involve such major development - more incremental development.
It was not. The underlying rewrite of the desktop framework was no more extensive or ambitious than Core Image and Quartz Extreme, and all those other features you rattled off are just new versions of software. Case in point: XP drivers do still work with Vista, they're just generally disallowed because they've tried to clean up the standards. It is absolutely nothing like the 98->XP transition or the OS9-OSX transition.
Vista is a major rewrite. Not a total rewrite, but then again it didn't need to be like OS X did.

Think about it... total replacement/update of the following:
Printing subsystem (10.2), display subsystem (DWM) (10.4),
graphics subsystem (10.4), Media subsystem (10.3), Audio (10.4), Media Center (10.4/10.5), Networking (10.3), new search system (10.4)
There, updated for you with the "minor" updates of OS X that provided these "major" updates in Windows. I stopped early because I got bored.

Nothing like being a troll...
To be fair, he's right. Apple has about 1/10th the staff of even HP, which doesn't develop its own OS (but does quite a bit Apple doesn't). I think even Gateway has more permanent employees than Apple, and they barely even design their own computers.

There's only so much you can do when you're relatively low-staffed, particularly when you need expert-level workers to support a new project (like software integration of the iPhone and AppleTV). You can't just hire new programmers and hit the ground running. They would have had to expand their staff well over a year ago to have any measurable effect on current projects, and they may not have terribly large long-term need for the added staff. Once things settle down, they might be able to maintain all these projects on their own, and so the hiring would have been wasteful.
 
has anyone reached the 'I really just don't care anymore' point with Leopard. Really yall should try not caring, it feels great to see a Leopard thread and just brush it off. It'll also help lighten the blow of inevitably bad news.

:cool:
 
We should try Leopard, or we should try brushing it off?

I'm kind of in the brush it off camp. Having tried it, I'm happy to wait until it's a solid piece of work.

has anyone reached the 'I really just don't care anymore' point with Leopard. Really yall should try it, it feels great to see a Leopard thread and just brush it off.

:cool:
 
I agree with the majority of your post except for the OS10 bit ( its a good post by the way ).

Apple started at least one OS10 project and abandoned development. The OSX we know today was taken from NeXT. So there was at least one failed project and a new OS10 project restarted - much like Vista.

Microsoft are far too ambitious in their targets which is why Vista failed, initially and had to be restarted from the Windows 2003 code base. Apple create software but their software is a lot of simpler than microsoft, but its just good enough for the average Apple consumer. Apple get a lot of their code for 'free' ( i.e., provided by opensource ). Overall, Microsoft create far more complex software than Apple do. For example:

* SQL Server ( enterprise ) - far more complex than Apple's desktop database ( sorry I forget the name )
* .Net and Visual Studio - far exceeds the complexity of (Editor) XCode / Objective C - the COM+ / .Net frameworks. Generally you would chose Java or .net for your enterprise solution, not ObjectiveC - it just doesn't have the flexibility and requirements.
* OSX v Windows. Apple inherit a lot of the code base from BSD and put an interface on top ( its a bit more than that - but microsoft create from ground up ( initially) whilst Apple inherit a very good code base - foundation on which to develop from ). Microsoft's approach may not be the best, however. Unix is tried and tested, and very good.
* Office v iWork. Office is far more complex and offers vastly more functionality than iWork which comprises of only word processor plus presentation. MS Office is far suited towards business needs than iWork, which is limited in comparison. iWork is for the consumer.

I'm naming just three examples, there are plenty of others. Microsoft is in the software game, Apple primarily aren't - some software, but majority hardware based.

Yes, but OS X was not delivered as a public announcement with massive developer ramp-up and release announcements. They worked on it until it was ready for the public beta stage, in 2000. It was released in 2001.

Vista is a major rewrite. Not a total rewrite, but then again it didn't need to be like OS X did.


There, updated for you with the "minor" updates of OS X that provided these "major" updates in Windows. I stopped early because I got bored.


To be fair, he's right. Apple has about 1/10th the staff of even HP, which doesn't develop its own OS (but does quite a bit Apple doesn't). I think even Gateway has more permanent employees than Apple, and they barely even design their own computers.

There's only so much you can do when you're relatively low-staffed, particularly when you need expert-level workers to support a new project (like software integration of the iPhone and AppleTV). You can't just hire new programmers and hit the ground running. They would have had to expand their staff well over a year ago to have any measurable effect on current projects, and they may not have terribly large long-term need for the added staff. Once things settle down, they might be able to maintain all these projects on their own, and so the hiring would have been wasteful.
 
Nice first post.

Nothing like being a troll...

Excuse me, but why is he a troll? Is it because he put Apple in a negative light and you didn't like that.

Your post is more trollish - since you fail to explain the reason for it - all you said is "He is a troll" ( in different words ).

If Apple don't have enough resources ( i.e., employees ) to work on both OSX and iPhone at once, then perhaps Apple are too small. This was the justification for Apple delaying OSX10.5, was it not?

For your convenience, his post is below:

"I read an article in my local paper today about the delay with Apple. They stated that Apple is too small a company compared to Hewlett Packard and IBM to be making such things as the iPhone and Leopard in tandem, in regards to employees etc. I just hope that Apple don't get too excited in the future about new gizmos and gadgets and leave out on the thing that got them there in the first place: computers!"
 
So Apple is going to preview a near-complete build of Leopard at WWDC, which means most or all of the secret features will be unveiled. IF a new User Interface is really coming, third-party developers will have enough time (3-4 months) to optimise their applications.
 
Excuse me, but why is he a troll? Is it because he put Apple in a negative light and you didn't like that.

Your post is more trollish - since you fail to explain the reason for it - all you said is "He is a troll" ( in different words ).

If Apple don't have enough resources ( i.e., employees ) to work on both OSX and iPhone at once, then perhaps Apple are too small. This was the justification for Apple delaying OSX10.5, was it not?

For your convenience, his post is below:

"I read an article in my local paper today about the delay with Apple. They stated that Apple is too small a company compared to Hewlett Packard and IBM to be making such things as the iPhone and Leopard in tandem, in regards to employees etc. I just hope that Apple don't get too excited in the future about new gizmos and gadgets and leave out on the thing that got them there in the first place: computers!"
Why do I think he might be a troll?

Indicator A: Local paper with no link to the article.

Indicator B: Recently registered.

Indicator C: First post.

Indicator D: As of this time, only one post.

Enough said. ;)

IMHO, the article (what he mentioned) makes no sense at all. For example, why was Microsoft not mentioned and IBM mentioned in the comparison? Since we cannot read the article, who knows what it really said or the context of the message. If we could read the article then his comments may make sense.

Anyway, here is my take. The Mac OS X concept is the future for Apple and all of it's products. The iPhone uses a scaled down version if you will. Integration between their products is very important.

At this point, none of us, except those developers covered by a NDA know for sure what are the secret features of Leopard. My guess, having been a developer before, is that issues that needed resolving for the iPhone are related to issues with Leopard.

What I do know, is that the demonstrated iPhone interface is very nice and user friendly. Who knows, we might be seeing this interface move into the computer side in the future.

As for now, Tiger is working very well and will continue to do so until Leopard is released. The release of the iPhone is much more important to Apple at this time.
 
New thought...

.

Hmmm... Perhaps Apple believes that if they can get teens to buy the ipods and iphones, those teens will eventually buy a Mac computer when they become young adults and get jobs.

They'd better...:mad:
 
:mad: Apple is starting to piss me off with the iPhone. Don't get me wrong i love the iPhone but they shouldn't sacrifice the trust of their customers for something that is highly overpriced. The "secret features" better knock my effing socks off or my waiting was in vain. I have been waiting to purchase a Mac Pro Quad Core (now 8-core) until Leopard and iLife '07 came out, but waiting until fall may be impossible in my situation. I wouldn't be so angry if they originally said that it would be coming out in fall 07, They had better not delay the ipod or i might lose it :(
 
Multi-touch for sure, no?

Is is just me, or is part of this Leopard delay statement a not-so-subtle guarantee that Leopard will have multi-touch? Is this common knowledge or is no one commenting on it, or what? Their 'official word' included, and I quote: "We can’t wait until customers get their hands (and fingers) on it and experience what a revolutionary and magical product it is."

I think this is a good thing (the delay) - they threw all of us nerds a huge bone with that 1 sentence. I'm waiting happily until October (or November, or next year).
 
Staying fair with customers

I counted on Leopard to be released in "Spring 2007" (June), and I therefore delayed my computer upgrade until June. Now Apple announced their statement about delaying Leopard until October. I understand the reasons for the delay. But Apple still should stay fair with their customers that counted on Apple's repetitive claims that Leopard is on the right track to be released on schedule (in June). How to stay fair with such customers (me being a one)? It's simple: offer a free upgrade to Leopard (and iLife as well, provided it gets released at the same time as Leopard) for people that purchase a Mac after "Spring 2007" (that's after June).

I think if Apple has sense for fairness, they must offer what I described.
 
Is is just me, or is part of this Leopard delay statement a not-so-subtle guarantee that Leopard will have multi-touch?

Nope. That quote was about the iPhone...

iPhone has already passed several of its required certification tests and is on schedule to ship in late June as planned. We can’t wait until customers get their hands (and fingers) on it and experience what a revolutionary and magical product it is.
 
After all these posts and a few days to cool down I just want to say, the iPhone better be cooler than it looks so far, and Leopard better have a sweet unified user interface with a new finder. :cool: :D So far it looks like they're at least on the same page with the ui. :)

And the stock better be on the up. :mad:

B
 
To clear the air on apple's workforce, as of Sept 06 (well into iPhone dev)

Employees

17,787 full-time; 2,399 temporary

Wikipedia is brilliant :D
 
Ans since anyone can edit Wikipedia that information is so reliable:rolleyes: . I'm not saying that I don't use wikipedia but when stating factual information I at least try to find a reputable source. The only reason I feel this way is because I once saw a Wikipedia article on Mark Twain and about how he was a pimp. Needless to say it was cleaned up pretty quick.
 
Ans since anyone can edit Wikipedia that information is so reliable:rolleyes: . I'm not saying that I don't use wikipedia but when stating factual information I at least try to find a reputable source. The only reason I feel this way is because I once saw a Wikipedia article on Mark Twain and about how he was a pimp. Needless to say it was cleaned up pretty quick.

Ah, good point
 
All idiots whining crying and bitching about Leopard not coming out until October and Apple turning it's back on computers, get a grip, and stop being such hysterical imbeciles. May I emphasize the word IMBECILES one more time?

IMBECILES!!!

Ans since anyone can edit Wikipedia that information is so reliable:rolleyes: . I'm not saying that I don't use wikipedia but when stating factual information I at least try to find a reputable source. The only reason I feel this way is because I once saw a Wikipedia article on Mark Twain and about how he was a pimp. Needless to say it was cleaned up pretty quick.

Wikipedia is more credible than some people are willing to give it credit for. The fact that the incident with the Mark Twain article was cleaned up immediately lends to Wikipedia's credibility.
 
To be fair, it was true 1.5 years ago (when I switched...)

Couldn't resist either...

lol, if ur windows crashed in several weeks, then yeah, u were in very good situation to switch, :p

Yes, but OS X was not delivered as a public announcement with massive developer ramp-up and release announcements. They worked on it until it was ready for the public beta stage, in 2000. It was released in 2001.

As bad situation as Apple was in at that time, maybe because nobody cared at all?

One project had private, internal setbacks
private, internal setbacks? I guess Macworld are just private party nobody noticed then?

It was not. The underlying rewrite of the desktop framework was no more extensive or ambitious than Core Image and Quartz Extreme, and all those other features you rattled off are just new versions of software.
I guess those ppl who rattle about leopard's new UI and update apps really are over-reacted in your opinion, aren't they?

There's only so much you can do when you're relatively low-staffed, particularly when you need expert-level workers to support a new project (like software integration of the iPhone and AppleTV). You can't just hire new programmers and hit the ground running.
forgive me, these excuses are just ridiculous, its not like apple is poor, its not like they didn't borrow >80% codes from Unix projects, understaffed? what prevents them from hiring more? SJ wants to collect more money than paying more developer? or what?

Its ironic when comes down to apple's failure, u can think of these "reasons" rather than simply say " a little bit more ambitious plan for OSX 10.5 became too big for them to handle on time". Their developers maybe just not that brilliant as ppl expected, is that so hard to admit?
 
Yawn...
Comments:
a) 10.4 wasn't that much better than 10.3. 10.5 likely won't be enormously better than 10.4.
b) I think the marketing people have a lot of people hypnotized.
c) The benefit of delay I see is that we will, perhaps, see one more refinement of 10.4. (10.4.91?)
 
Yawn...
Comments:
a) 10.4 wasn't that much better than 10.3. 10.5 likely won't be enormously better than 10.4.
b) I think the marketing people have a lot of people hypnotized.
c) The benefit of delay I see is that we will, perhaps, see one more refinement of 10.4. (10.4.91?)
10.4.10 is fine,
 
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