Apple Delays Rollout of Controversial Child Safety Features to Make Improvements

[jseymour]

There must be a reason that Apple has been working on this plan to begin with.

Therein lies one of the problems: They have not explained to any of its opponents' satisfaction exactly why they went the route they did. Just vague claims of "it preserves/improves privacy." How, exactly, does putting a file scanner on "my" private property preserve or improve my privacy? It's nonsensical. "It allows for E2EE," is the only rational response to that question anybody's made. That might be a reasonable answer had Apple made any claims, much less promises, they were going to implement E2EE for photos, but they have not. And, as has been pointed out by others and me: Apple has specifically backed away from plans to implement E2EE for iCloud storage. So...?

It’s that it’s platform is being used as a distribution mechanism for CSAM.

They believe it is. They may be right. I'll even grant they're probably right. But they don't know it. "Belief" does not constitute even reasonable articulable suspicion, much less probable cause. Furthermore: Even PC to believe one out of a population of N people is doing a bad thing does not justify subjecting the entire population of N people to intrusive searches.

No, not even if "It saves one child."

Yes, it sounds cold. But the alternative smacks of "We had to kill the patient to save him."

 

[iphonehype]

So the code will remain? How do we know they won’t do this anyway? Annoying….just in the process of moving everything from iCloud to private cloud. Now it’s paused 😂

 

[I7guy]

Therein lies one of the problems: They have not explained to any of its opponents' satisfaction exactly why they went the route they did. Just vague claims of "it preserves/improves privacy." How, exactly, does putting a file scanner on "my" private property preserve or improve my privacy? It's nonsensical. "It allows for E2EE," is the only rational response to that question anybody's made. That might be a reasonable answer had Apple made any claims, much less promises, they were going to implement E2EE for photos, but they have not. And, as has been pointed out by others and me: Apple has specifically backed away from plans to implement E2EE for iCloud storage. So...?


They believe it is. They may be right. I'll even grant they're probably right. But they don't know it. "Belief" does not constitute even reasonable articulable suspicion, much less probable cause. Furthermore: Even PC to believe one out of a population of N people is doing a bad thing does not justify subjecting the entire population of N people to intrusive searches.

No, not even if "It saves one child."

Yes, it sounds cold. But the alternative smacks of "We had to kill the patient to save him."

I believe Apple has hard evidence. That doesn’t mean I support this. But I’ll let it play out and see where it goes. I’m not that emotionally invested that I’m ready to throw out my Apple gear.

 

[robd003]

Ever notice how every encroachment of the surveillance state and limitation of speech starts out as "we're doing it to save the children"?

Obviously this is going to be abused in the future. Don't let it start now.

 

[sirozha]

The lack of backbone by Apple on some of these controversial situations they find themselves in is just astonishing to me. A massive corporate structure like that....get your crap together and then make your announcement. And then stick with it. There will always be backlash, some segment of people are always going to have a problem with a decision you make. But damn.....game that out on the front in before you put yourself out there and then ultimately run away with your tail between your legs when people make a big enough stink about what you did.

And the way the US government can’t keep their crap together is not astonishing to you? The Afghanistan debacle. The booster vaccine dose debacle. The border crisis debacle. The masks debacle. The flooding in New England debacle. Are those not astonishing and mind blowing? We, in the US. have a bigger fish to fry right now than this Apple PR disaster.

 

[Mercury7]

So the code will remain? How do we know they won’t do this anyway? Annoying….just in the process of moving everything from iCloud to private cloud. Now it’s paused 😂

No one knows right now, when ios15 is released we will probably know if the code is still there, if it is there we will need to get the word out to not download it …. If they don’t understand the pr of not removing the code then they really are stupid, the privacy groups will eat them alive if all they have to do is throw a switch to turn it on

 

[Mercury7]

And the way the US government can’t keep their crap together is not astonishing to you? The Afghanistan debacle. The booster vaccine dose debacle. The border crisis debacle. The masks debacle. The flooding in New England debacle. Are those not astonishing and mind blowing? We, in the US. have a bigger fish to fry right now than this Apple PR disaster.

The Apple thing is actually much bigger than the others you mentioned in the great scheme of things, it Would have been devastating to privacy going forward if implemented , people seem to have trouble wrapping their minds around how big of a deal it was, it was precedent setting, a normalization of checking to ensure you are not a criminal every day, hour and minute

 

[crymimefireworks]

I had planned on downsizing my 15” MBP for a 14” on the upcoming cycle but Apple’s actions have scrapped that. I’ve purchased and received a System76 (Pop_OS! Linux) laptop and am enjoying it with minimal learning curve. Not quite as polished as MacOS but the trade offs look acceptable.

I also am currently test driving GrapheneOS on a Pixel 5. Thus far very impressed with the experience. The obvious hurdle is iMessage with the vast majority of family and friends being in the Apple ecosystem. But once I overcome that I feel the transition should be seamless.

Especially as I reevaluate what I want out of a phone, computer and technology in general. I’m unplugging to a large extent (sold my Apple Watch years ago because I grew tired of constant notifications and distractions). I’ve deleted essentially every app from my iPhone to limit its functionality to telephony, text messaging/iMessage and email (though I’m questioning the need for that on a phone). I keep Signal and ProtonMail as well as a podcast app and third party music player for usage in the car. I don’t need news apps, social media or any of the other numerous types of apps that serve as nothing more than time sucks and turning my usage habits into their monetization.

Likewise, Linux brings back the purity and privacy of computing to the extent possible. Apple has gone so far away from being a hardware builder/software bundled and have evolved into a subscription model based upon iEverything integration. I have no interest in that. I’m beginning to extract myself from Apple’s software ecosystem as well.

Apple has forced me to re-evaluate what I want out of technology. I have decided that the convenience is no longer worth the trade off in either privacy or monetizing my online presence. I will pay to use the products that I choose. I will no longer allow myself to be the product. I thank Tim Cook for that.

It’s liberating.

Wow so cool!!!! Can you join my "Ask me anything" thread here about switching?

Ask me anything: I switched from Mac to Linux because of Apple's surveillance

For those that switched off Apple already, share your stories! What hardware or software did you get? What was your decision like? How's it going so far? inspired by this post below by @RightsOfBill and insight from @hashbreaker2021 2 weeks ago I purchased a Lemur Pro laptop from System76. I...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[Deliro]

Cool. I just built a 8TB NAS in raid 1 that backs up my photos and accessible anywhere. It may not be as seamless as an iCloud integration but it’s private and scalable. Converted a old cheap low power Xeon box I had laying around in the bone yard. ICloud for photos is now off.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple tries to spin and reintroduce this later. I’m all for catching predators but IMO this is a PR spin from Apple and it’s application would likely extend to other things. Big tech steering narratives has definitely accelerated the past few years and thought policing is a thing. I don’t need to be flagged on some database because I may have content that a administration (left or right) frowns on. I may be overreacting but hey my choice.

 

[crymimefireworks]

Cool. I just built a 8TB NAS in raid 1 that backs up my photos and accessible anywhere. It may not be as seamless as an iCloud integration but it’s private and scalable. Converted a old cheap low power Xeon box I had laying around in the bone yard. ICloud for photos is now off.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple tries to spin and reintroduce this later. I’m all for catching predators but IMO this is a PR spin from Apple and it’s application would likely extend to other things. Big tech steering narratives has definitely accelerated the past few years and thought policing is a thing. I don’t need to be flagged on some database because I may have content that a administration (left or right) frowns on. I may be overreacting but hey my choice.

Wow congrats can you come share more about your setup in this thread? How do your photos back up to it, what app do you use on your phone, any other changes, etc.

Ask me anything: I switched from Mac to Linux because of Apple's surveillance

For those that switched off Apple already, share your stories! What hardware or software did you get? What was your decision like? How's it going so far? inspired by this post below by @RightsOfBill and insight from @hashbreaker2021 2 weeks ago I purchased a Lemur Pro laptop from System76. I...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[jseymour]

I believe Apple has hard evidence.

That it improves privacy for the end-user? That I would like to see. I would like to see how scanner-on-my-device-no-matter-how-implemented improves privacy over no-scanner-at-all. Or how scanner-on-my-device-no-matter-how-implemented improves privacy over scanner-on-cloud. Stipulated: There is no E2EE in either case.

I’m not that emotionally invested that I’m ready to throw out my Apple gear.

Are you suggesting those who have or plan to exit the Apple ecosystem are doing so based solely on emotionalism?

 

[Jayson A]

I can see your point, just wonder if your also thinking of the redneck down the road that will beat and kill his children because Apple sent him a notification they were sexting….. that will happen, and The gay or transgender outing thing will happen too and probably result in suicides, people tend to judge such tools based on their own situations and mental stability but we live in a messed up world… I am not finding Apple solution very appealing, just questioning if it’s really apples job to bake this in to iOS…. There’s an app for that if you think it’s important to spy on your kids

Doesn’t the notification give the minor a chance to not view the image and it warns them that if they choose to view it, it will notify their parents?

 

[iHorseHead]

I understand why this is a slippery slope but I don’t like the idea of child predators breathing a sigh of relief.

Child predators are smart enough to avoid this feature.

 

[Jayson A]

Child predators are smart enough to avoid this feature.

No they aren’t.

 

[Xtir]

I understand why this is a slippery slope but I don’t like the idea of child predators breathing a sigh of relief.

True, but it creates a precedent, why not not scan for gayporn because this is illegal in some countries, or help a country to restrict the time spend on gaming, or scan for certain people, terrorists, studentleaders, unionleaders, governmentofficials, generals, soldiers, policeofficers, jaywalkers, illegal aliens, you or worse, me?

It is not apple's job to scan for anything unless our (chosen) government, police-force has reasonable suspicion of an illegality. Then and only then apple can decide to fulfill a request (and aid an abet in requests of a dubious nature)

Apple is trying to stand on a moral highground with this, but history already showed us morality is not one of their main features.

 

[Jayson A]

Here’s what I don’t understand.

Scan in iCloud: completely fine, they can scan anything they want. Even if it’s political memes or anti vaccine stuff. They can use the exact same software and everything.

Scan on my device: Bad. All of the results stay on your device and your device has no idea whether there’s a match until the voucher is uploaded to iCloud and decoded. Then to further enhance this, the files are checked again using another hashing process in the cloud to make sure it’s a real match and not a false positive. Then if all of that happens with 30 photos, it’s finally seen by humans.

Both of these methods NEED iCloud to function. The code can’t physically do ANYTHING without the second step in the cloud. So in reality, this system can’t actually be any more abused than scanning solely in the cloud.

 

[crymimefireworks]

Here’s what I don’t understand.

Scan in iCloud: completely fine, they can scan anything they want. Even if it’s political memes or anti vaccine stuff. They can use the exact same software and everything.

Scan on my device: Bad. All of the results stay on your device and your device has no idea whether there’s a match until the voucher is uploaded to iCloud and decoded. Then to further enhance this, the files are checked again using another hashing process in the cloud to make sure it’s a real match and not a false positive. Then if all of that happens with 30 photos, it’s finally seen by humans.

Both of these methods NEED iCloud to function. The code can’t physically do ANYTHING without the second step in the cloud. So in reality, this system can’t actually be any more abused than scanning solely in the cloud.

Hey, @Jayson A it's been a month of you in these discussions and this still seems unclear for you. You've posted literally dozens maybe even hundreds of times on these threads. It must be frustrating.

Wanted to make space for you to be heard.

What is it you want people to do? Or what is it you feel like needs to happen?

 

[Jayson A]

Hey, it's been a month of you in these discussions and this still seems unclear for you. What is it you want people to do? Or what is it you feel like needs to happen?

I’m just saying, both methods require iCloud to work. So the complaints that the first part happens technically on your device makes no difference. Your phone can’t do anything with that data. It HAS to be uploaded to iCloud for it to work. So therefore it’s the same thing.

 

[crymimefireworks]

I’m just saying, both methods require iCloud to work. So the complaints that the first part happens technically on your device makes no difference. Your phone can’t do anything with that data. It HAS to be uploaded to iCloud for it to work. So therefore it’s the same thing.

Ok so since it's the same thing, what do you want us to do? What do you want to change or not change? Is there something missing in the discussion that's important to you?

 

[jseymour]

Hey, @Jayson A it's been a month of you in these discussions and this still seems unclear for you.

Even though he's posted this, or a semantically equivalent, question multiple times and been given the answer each time.

 

[Mercury7]

Doesn’t the notification give the minor a chance to not view the image and it warns them that if they choose to view it, it will notify their parents?

I have not seen it in action but based on at least the protest from the trans community I assumed it must be scanning the camera roll, not just incoming text messages, there are several things Apple was rolling out, we could be talking about two different things

 

[Jayson A]

Ok so since it's the same thing, what do you want us to do? What do you want to change or not change?

I personally wouldn’t change the system. I think it’s fine the way it is, but Apple seems to be re-thinking it and perhaps they’ll make it even more secure than it already is so that it pleases the people who think their privacy has been invaded.

I fear it won’t help though because people already don’t trust anything they do or say anymore because they wanted to install “spyware” on their iPhones.

 

[RightsOfBill]

Wow so cool!!!! Can you join my "Ask me anything" thread here about switching?

Ask me anything: I switched from Mac to Linux because of Apple's surveillance

For those that switched off Apple already, share your stories! What hardware or software did you get? What was your decision like? How's it going so far? inspired by this post below by @RightsOfBill and insight from @hashbreaker2021 2 weeks ago I purchased a Lemur Pro laptop from System76. I...

forums.macrumors.com

Will do!

 

[coachgq]

Wow dude. A month of articles about this, millions of comments and you still don't understand that people's beef with this has nothing to do with child safety. People fought for our liberties and others around the world are losing their lives trying to gain some. Its shocking to me that their are people such as yourself that are so willing to give them up under the guise that this is about child safety.

This is essentially like having someone in your home that pops up every time you bring in some new groceries to tell you that everything is okay, carry on. Sorry I don't need or want that. You want to video or check everything I do while I am outside my home (ie. cloud), fine, I am okay with that. But I am not going to pay money for a home (ie. phone) that comes with someone patting down my pockets every time I come in.

Wow.

Wow dude. A month of articles about this, millions of comments and you still don't understand that people's beef with this has nothing to do with child safety. People fought for our liberties and others around the world are losing their lives trying to gain some. Its shocking to me that their are people such as yourself that are so willing to give them up under the guise that this is about child safety.

This is essentially like having someone in your home that pops up every time you bring in some new groceries to tell you that everything is okay, carry on. Sorry I don't need or want that. You want to video or check everything I do while I am outside my home (ie. cloud), fine, I am okay with that. But I am not going to pay money for a home (ie. phone) that comes with someone patting down my pockets every time I come in.

So you’re good with the poster I replied to stating “child safety crap”? Hope you don’t have kids.

 

[jseymour]

I fear it won’t help though because people already don’t trust anything they do or say anymore because they wanted to install “spyware” on their iPhones.

Correct. I may exit no further than I have already, but I won't be going back to the degree of immersion into the Apple ecosystem I was before all this. As somebody else put it: "The toothpaste of distrust is out of the tube. You can't put it back."