Apple Denied Motion to Dismiss Lawsuit Related to Disabling FaceTime on iOS 6 and Earlier

[Defthand]

Everything with Apple is proprietary and people come into the ecosystem knowing this. Besides at that time Skype could be used as an alternative.

There’s the rub. Apple’s ecosystem is proprietary. Some features/abilities, it limits to its own apps. Those abilities are often highlighted in their marketing.

Facetime was so integral to Apple’s early iPhone marketing boasts, that not only was it preinstalled, it couldn’t be deleted. That implies that the service was inseparable from the hardware.

Judging from Apple’s eventual concession to allow users to omit or delete many of Apple’s stock apps, Apple is probably avoiding future lawsuits like this one.

 

[oliversl]

Apple sent a point update for iPod touch iOS6 users, that fixed the "bug" and FaceTime worked again. But for iPhone users, the "solution" was to upgrade to iOS7. Apple forced users to upgrade to iOS7 so management could say that iOS7 was a success. So internal interest prevailed on top of users interest. Classy solution from the new Apple™

 

[OneMike]

So people are suing over something they could've fixed themselves by upgrading, but because they felt like not doing so they want to get money from Apple?


Don't get me wrong, there have been legitimate law suits against Apple, but at this point it has become ridiculous. Apparently everybody wants a piece of the cake now.

Back in those days, every time a new iOS version and phone came out. It felt like the old phones were purposely slowed to force an upgrade. Can't really blame them.

 

[Russlush3]

If you don't update, you cannot expect for things to continue to work. Devices get outdated.

Wait, what? In what other situation does an integral function of a product cease to function just because of time? My iPod nano (6th gen) still plays music even though I haven't updated the software in 6+ years...

Apple also said the plaintiffs didn't experience the iOS 7 issues mentioned on their own iPhones

This is such a dumb and horrible argument. I don't need to jump off a 300ft bridge to know what it will do to my body, I can extrapolate from what happened after a 10ft drop previously and/or see what it did to the people around me.

I just have no sympathy for Apple on this one, if it was a mistake, then they need to realize mistakes have consequences. It is simply their absurd obsession with forcing everyone to update to the most recent version of iOS that has got them into this, and so many other problems.

 

[amegicfox]

Tim Crook tactics at it's finest

 

[B4U]

[sarcasm]iOS 7.1 did not fix any of those ugly icons that came with iOS 7. Glad to keep my 4S in iOS 6 to avoid making my eyes hurt and bleed.[/sarcasm]

Joking aside, the plaintiff does have a case here as the product is no longer capable performing a task that it originally was. A classic case of bait and switch.
[doublepost=1501562773][/doublepost]

Dusts off PS3. So I guess if this is okay for a lawsuit Sony will be sending me my check for removing Linux support from my PS3. I spent a good month tweaking that and making it work properly. Then was given the ultimatum not to update and lose all access to PSN or update and lose my linux partition.

Law suit got thrown out saying Sony can remove features at will. Well if Apple can't Sony can't either.

Sony removed a feature. Apple disabled but did not remove said feature.
Guess it is not exactly the same even though the outcome for the customer is virtually the same.
[doublepost=1501563026][/doublepost]

This is about software from over a decade ago.

In terms of the pace of technology this is equivalent to accusing Ford of prioritizing profits over customers by no longer manufacturing parts for the Model T...

Get a life, just update the software.

FYI, the auto industry usually estimate the useable life of a vehicle to be about 10 years. The Fed wants 15 years. So the Model T is way out of focus now.
[doublepost=1501563265][/doublepost]

while it is true that there are iPhones not capable of higher than ios6 support those iPhones all also lacked the camera required for FaceTime to work in the first place. ie original iPhone the 3g and the 3gs. all iPhone 4 could go up to 7.1.2 and the 4s could go up to 9.3.5 thus the point you are trying to make doesn't even count in this case and no they wouldn't have to buy a new device for FaceTime to work again

iPod touch 4th gen...

 

[MH01]

As they should. Apple is for profit corporation, not charity. As a shareholder I'd not be happy with company payment of 50 million dollars a year for 5 dudes that are not willing to update. It's a problem that Apple provided with simple solution. If one doesn't like a solution it's fine as long as they are willing to pay for their own. They never been promised that all functions stay forever. So what is this lawsuit about?

The issue is actually when the update, has worse performance and you cannot down grade for better performance. Planned obsolescence as it's called. And that is not okay, for a device you own and paid lots of money.

 

[tripmusic]

I knew the coffee was hot, but I chose to drink it right away anyways. Now I'm rich. 'Murica

 

[8692574]

So where is the evidence that Apple intentionally broke FaceTime for iOS 6?
How are they going to prove that??
Did they get a hold of some internal memo that states: “iOS devs... the company has decided to force users to upgrade to ios7 by breaking FaceTime for iOS 6...”

Just because you believe something doesn’t make it true.

Can Apple prove they did everything to keep supporting older HW/SW?

You buy a device that has a functionality, and you expect that functionality to keep working as when you bouhgt it.

If I buy a Ford, I expect the radio to keep working, even if a new model comes out, I should not be required to change car to have the radio working again.

Now I do not expect to have the new functionality of the new radio on my old Ford, but the radio I have should keep at least doing what it was before the new model came out!

To make things worse, you cannot even downgrade if so you wish, Thanks Apple!

 

[alexgowers]

I'm intentionally leaving a device behind on iOS 10. I don't expect it to operate flawlessly with services that will debut in iOS 12, 23, 86...

Exactly, this is about expectations.

If it's a bug then user needs to upgrade OS, As far as I can tell no device is stuck on ios6 as such.

http://www.everyi.com/by-capability/maximum-supported-ios-version-for-ipod-iphone-ipad.html

I see this as a landmark case that if won would mean payouts for any version of any software where features were broken regardless of if there was an update. Thats just not acceptable and can't see this ever winning ever.

 

[ValerioParisMitritsakis]

Not everyone would have been able to upgrade; a limited number of devices were unable to upgrade beyond iOS 6 so those owners would have had to buy a whole new device just to keep using the service. Otherwise, you're right though.

As the article states, iPhone 4 and 4s were able to upgrade to 7 however the owners feared that the devices would get slow. (From a quick google search iPhone 4s can get up to iOS 9)

I wonder what the liability of the manufacturer is in such cases. iPhone 4 came out with iOS 4, next year it got upgraded to iOS 5, the next year to 6. So three years after it's introduction Apple still provided an update, iOS 7, which also fixed the FaceTime issue. So for three years said feature was working and to keep it working from the third year and onward you had to upgrade to a newer version.

While the fact that each iOS version slowed down the iPhone by a bit the question that needs to be answered is how long should Apple support older versions of iOS. Are they obligated to back port a feature fix to an older version on a 3 year old device when they are offering a newer version of iOS that fixes the problem?

 

[AFEPPL]

OMG!!! All the whiners out there!!!

When a computing device is created it has a certain amount of "power", if you will. The hardware has the capability to run software that makes certain demands of it. As software improves, it requires more powerful hardware.

When that hardware becomes outdated, it will not run newer software with the same quality that it used to. Or it will not run some software at all.

It is the same with computers (Windows or macOS), GPS for your car, media players… the list goes on and on. Stop beeching, update the OS and live with the reduced performance or buy a new damn iPhone.

I'm sorry that's just no true.
When you take your car in they don't just disable a few cylinders, or the ABS, or the heater, power steering etc during a service. Apple deliberately stopped these features from working and that's wrong on every level.

And no it's not the same as windows or GPS, while they do stop providing 'updates', they don't disable features you've already got on the device. While at the same not enabling you to downgrade if you so choose....

I seriously doubt anybody here is after any money from Apple, the point is this is wrong and it needs to be stopped.
Users should be able to decide for themselves when they want to upgrade and not when Apple require additional revenues and implements a programme of deliberate obsolescence. This issue doesn't impact me directly, but this doesn't mean I don't have an opinion and I want the ability to be able to reinstate at anytime the version of the software that shipped upon it at the point of purchase

 

[I7guy]

People keep saying "upgrade" but in many ways iOS 7 was in fact a downgrade from iOS6. Even if the performace hit on some devices wasn't a thing (and it absolutely IS a thing) the user interface is a massive downgrade that Apple STILL hasn't fixed.

Downgrade to one is upgrade to me. I disliked the interface of iOS 6, but that's another discussion. This will take years or maybe Apple will settle, or win.

 

[justperry]

I guess it's a good thing your conclusion doesn't mean anything!

When you push a (software) button to have an action (like a bell ringing) should not get a patent, period.
Next time someone invents a way to breath, but hey, I don't expect anything
smarter from the people who pass these patents nor from people who invents
this kind of stuff, mostly Americans with $ in their eyes.


And my (and others) opinion differs from yours, so...what.

 

[2010mini]

Can Apple prove they did everything to keep supporting older HW/SW?

You buy a device that has a functionality, and you expect that functionality to keep working as when you bouhgt it.

If I buy a Ford, I expect the radio to keep working, even if a new model comes out, I should not be required to change car to have the radio working again.

Now I do not expect to have the new functionality of the new radio on my old Ford, but the radio I have should keep at least doing what it was before the new model came out!

To make things worse, you cannot even downgrade if so you wish, Thanks Apple!

Your analogy Does not work for this case. Apple fix a SOFTWARE issue with iOS 7. The person in this suit claims upgrading is bad for her iPhone 4/4s. Which is bogus as Apple fixed any issue relating to performance.

Your analogy would be better suited if you stated it like this:

You bought a Ford with kumho tyres. Later ford cannot supply said tyres because of contractual issues. They switch to Goodyears on all their existing and future models. You heard Goodyears make your Ford a little slower. Ford has made sure these tyres for your older model, have been custom made to address that specific issue.

But you still want them to supply Kumhos.

 

[AAPL_DayTrader]

This has to be one of the few completely valid lawsuits against Apple. So many people defending Apple right off the bat simply don't understand that under an iOS6 update, Facetime functionality was REMOVED due to the cost of the relay. It was re-introduced with Apples peer-to-peer fix in iOS7, but having had an iPhone4, upgrading to iOS7 was a HUGE mistake. Made my phone pretty unusable and it didn't get any better with iOS7.1 but of course you can't downgrade at that point.

People need to stop and actually read the article not only here, but on other sites that give the full story to really gauge what's going on, but of course that's asking many people to do something that's hard for most, critical thinking.

 

[vkd]

"Testimony from Apple's 2016 retrial with VirnetX indicated that, between April 2013 and September 2013 alone, Apple paid approximately $50 million as a result of FaceTime functioning in relay mode only on iOS 6 and earlier. "

That equates to Apple paying Ten Million Dollars per month to use some servers. I personally find that incredibly hard to believe and would need some hard factual evidence to convince me that this is not an outlandish super-over-exaggeration.

 

[AAPL_DayTrader]

Consistent with Apple's legal argument, I'd like to remind you as well as these two money-grubbin' West Coast plaintiffs with grandiose delusions of making a quick buck off of Apple, there is no clause in the iOS End User Licensing Agreement, the acceptance of which is not an option when activating any Apple iOS device (whether it's read or not), nor any guarantee of any kind being offered by Apple that FaceTime or any other app will continue to function perpetually for as long as the endless cycle of eternity doesn't run out of gas (so to speak). Even the hardware device itself is not guaranteed to function beyond the expiration date of the warranty plus any extensions granted from the purchase of AppleCare so, in my opinion, only a fool (perhaps one guided by a newbie lawyer trying to make a name for himself/herself) would anticipate that the uninterrupted functionality of outdated apps on an outdated hardware device is an inalienable cosmic right. Instead of simply buying a newer iPhone or installing an iOS update that may or may not have bricked the ancient prehistoric one, these clowns decided to do things the hard way. My prediction is that they'll get their jury trial and they might even win the legal battle too with Apple then, consistent with the jury's recommendation, being legally required to give both of them the latest iPhone free of charge with a HomePod thrown in to sweeten the deal along with a no-cost lifetime Apple Music membership.

 

[lordofthereef]

The problem here is buying a product with a service that was arbitrarily discontinued (whilst still working perfectly fine on other devices). Now Apple will have to make an argument as to why it technically had to be discontinued in order to continue functionality for said new devices, I would think.

I don't think anyone with a device capable of updating beyond iOS 6 has much of an argument, but those that can't? Granted that's not what this is about. Just thinking out loud.
[doublepost=1501594185][/doublepost]

3. Apple doesn't "force" you to install an update (they do bug you to hell about it however)

[doublepost=1501525933][/doublepost]
You mean iOS 7?

My wife's phone overnight went into the "plug into iTunes" mode a few nights ago. I HAD to update to 10.3.3 to get beyond that. No idea why it did that. And updating wasn't an issue. And I realize I'm in the minority. First time in ten years I've seen that happen. But, unfortunately, She wasn't given a choice in the matter if She cared about using the phone.

 

[dk001]

Exactly, this is about expectations.

If it's a bug then user needs to upgrade OS, As far as I can tell no device is stuck on ios6 as such.

http://www.everyi.com/by-capability/maximum-supported-ios-version-for-ipod-iphone-ipad.html

I see this as a landmark case that if won would mean payouts for any version of any software where features were broken regardless of if there was an update. Thats just not acceptable and can't see this ever winning ever.

I saw this and decided to read just because of my issues with the i4. Mostly the Siri kill shot and radical OS GUI change.
@alexgowers - I am using your post to make a point. No insult to your post.

It is apparent after reading this article, a couple of others, and these posts that many have either not read beyond the headline/paragraph 1 or just ignore this and defend Apple irregardless.

Try "News:iPhone 4 Facetime class action lawsuit" and you'll find a wide dearth of articles on this.

In this case I suspect if Apple had come out and said that they are, due to business/technology/other reasons changing Facetime and it's continued use requires iOS7 AND had not borked the performance for i4 we would not be seeing this. It was the "certificate issue", "bug", "we are working on it" misdirection and lies that are the heart of the matter.
For those saying "just update", many wait and see what the update impact is. They are not first adopters. Seeing a serious number of "it kills the i4 / i4S" would most likely put these folks off. Don't forget that iOS7 was a major change in look/style.

There are a number of decent arguments for and against. I believe this is legitimate. I am not among the complainants. This does potentially further demonstrate the ongoing "forced obsolescence" debate surrounding Apple.

It will be interesting to see where this goes though in the long run it likely means little or nothing. I say to the staunch Apple defenders, keep an open mind. Doubt they will.

My $0.02. YMMV.

 

[mw360]

This has to be one of the few completely valid lawsuits against Apple. So many people defending Apple right off the bat simply don't understand that under an iOS6 update, Facetime functionality was REMOVED due to the cost of the relay. It was re-introduced with Apples peer-to-peer fix in iOS7, but having had an iPhone4, upgrading to iOS7 was a HUGE mistake. Made my phone pretty unusable and it didn't get any better with iOS7.1 but of course you can't downgrade at that point.

People need to stop and actually read the article not only here, but on other sites that give the full story to really gauge what's going on, but of course that's asking many people to do something that's hard for most, critical thinking.

Yes, iOS7 on an iPhone 4 was an utter disgrace, and if you complained about it around here you would get the familiar mantra, 'Apple didn't force you to upgrade' and various other victim-blaming routines. Well, yes, if you used FaceTime, they absolutely did force you to upgrade, and some people had to buy a new device because of the mess that was waiting for them in iOS7. It was obvious at the time Apple were stiffing their customers but few here wanted to hear about it. I'm not normally a fan of class action lawsuits but I wish this one well.

 

[vladi]

This is the most American thing I've seen all this year. Suing a large corporation because your outdated choice of iOS doesn't support an app anymore......How pathetic can it get..

That's called corporate responsibility. You don't go ahead make a monopoly of people's loyalty and money just to blackmail them to buy from you again. For once I'm glad that lawsuits like these get traction because this is based off moral grounds.

Think of it as MB crippling your nav infotainment after five years claiming you need better specs to run it. Or maybe disabling your turbocharger by telling you need a newest generation PU. It's basically the same thing except one is a major purchase and the other one is affordable.

Hopefully one day someone will prove that Apple is making your phone slower with each updated on purpose. Also every Android manufacturer should be hit with the lawsuit for refusing OS updates on old devices in order to sell new ones. Hey you wanna play you got to pay just like everyone else.

 

[826317]

That's called corporate responsibility. You don't go ahead make a monopoly of people's loyalty and money just to blackmail them to buy from you again. For once I'm glad that lawsuits like these get traction because this is based off moral grounds.

Think of it as MB crippling your nav infotainment after five years claiming you need better specs to run it. Or maybe disabling your turbocharger by telling you need a newest generation PU. It's basically the same thing except one is a major purchase and the other one is affordable.

Hopefully one day someone will prove that Apple is making your phone slower with each updated on purpose. Also every Android manufacturer should be hit with the lawsuit for refusing OS updates on old devices in order to sell new ones. Hey you wanna play you got to pay just like everyone else.

The thing is, this person could've upgraded to iOS 7. It's not a monopoly. Companies are allowed to declare older devices obsolete yet can't halt services on those obsolete devices? What a joke. I personally use Android, but if I had the same mindset as this person here, I could've sued various companies multiple times for making my device incompatible with their app or service...but I don't sue those companies because I'm not a money hungry **** who wants to milk money from all the big corporations.

 

[iMi]

Over a decade ago? That's funny because the iPhone just turned 10.
You're saying these 4-5 year old phones were running pre-release software?

It's a legit claim. Apple stripped out a key feature due to costs. Pure and simple.
And forcing the upgrade to iOS7 may fix the FaceTime issue, but at a cost of a slew performance issues.

It's not a legitimate claim. Just update the software. If the performance of the phone no longer meets your needs, get a new phone. It's that simple. Besides, 4-5 years is a reasonable useful lifespan for a consumer electronics device - especially a smartphone.

10 years, by the way, is a decade. June 2007 to July 2017 would indeed be "over a decade" ago.

 

[kdarling]

This is yet another reason why Android's separate updating of apps makes more sense.

If Apple had simply been able to update Facetime by itself, people with older devices would not have had to suffer an OS update as well.

And as an owner of many older iPads, I'm very aware of how awful some of those updates can be. Whenever some idiot yaps about "Apple gives updates longer", I want to scream. A lot of us wish that we could _downgrade_ our iOS devices.

Worse, many of the iOS updates don't even include the talked-about new functionality for older devices. (I goofed up downloading an update thinking I would get ad blocking, but instead Apple only gave that to newer devices. All I got was more slowness and browser instability instead. Apple bragging that everyone has moved to iOS X.X is often a lie when it comes to functionality.)