Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
This critique assumes that useful change can (and must) occur often for any given device. Do you agree with that thought, and would you say it's impossible for a certain design to reach a point where any "significant" change may feel forced, unnecessary, compromised, and/or even silly?

In related news, interesting to see that Apple still doesn't get that Good Design should include durability, flexibility, and convenience of use without having to overall most all accessories purchased to date.
I think Apple gets “it” plenty; just that you don’t agree with it. No problem there.

Apple has a vision you are not privy to and what you see you dont like. Again no problem there to each their own.

Two points one supporting your “ideas”. We went on a vacation and forgot the car charger. S/O didn’t want to buy one, not even a cheap one. Bad Apple for having batteries that actually discharge with use. Second point: same mentioned s/o forgot adapter with i7. One airplane didn’t want to use b/t headphones and was annoyed adapter was forgotten. Bad Apple for removing the headphone jack.

What do both of these have in common? User error.
 
The new MacBook Pro! Only 0.3" thick. No keyboard and none of those unnecessary "port" things, but it's magical!
 
I think Apple gets “it” plenty; just that you don’t agree with it. No problem there.

Apple has a vision you are not privy to and what you see you dont like. Again no problem there to each their own.

Two points one supporting your “ideas”. We went on a vacation and forgot the car charger. S/O didn’t want to buy one, not even a cheap one. Bad Apple for having batteries that actually discharge with use. Second point: same mentioned s/o forgot adapter with i7. One airplane didn’t want to use b/t headphones and was annoyed adapter was forgotten. Bad Apple for removing the headphone jack.

What do both of these have in common? User error.

Oh geez. Pointing to user errors is pretty silly justification for trying to say that user adaption is a key to satisfaction with Apple devices. Good on you for being easy to please and feeling there's no amount of stretch or mis-prioritization under the guise of "vision" that should ever be met with customer disatisfation, including your own apparently. Even with the handicapped flat/dumbed-down-looking iOS & OSX, at the moment with iPhone SE's/6S's and MacBook Airs still for sale, certain discerning customers have a choice. So your/my conjecture is just that for now. But I wonder what the consumer response would be should Apple really close the door and go sans headphone jack, usb 3.0, home-button, Function keys, and magsafe across the board. At that point I could unfortunately finally see the time I'd jump ship after 12 years of being a really satisfied Apple customer from 2005-2013 then a moderately dissatisfied Apple customer 2013-present. Why buy buttonless portless Apple icrap hardware priced 2-3x over similar non-Apple crap probably with better user flexibility of hardware? Guess we'll have to see.
 
iphone 5(s)/SE was the best design. Anything after that was sht. Design of the UI also went down the shtter. There was a time IOS was the 'premium UI' .Not anynore. Even the apps look worse than their android counterparts these days.

And that notch was the crime of the century. A huge opportunity was lost with that terrible design choice.
 
Oh geez. Pointing to user errors is pretty silly justification for trying to say that user adaption is a key to satisfaction with Apple devices. Good on you for being easy to please and feeling there's no amount of stretch or mis-prioritization under the guise of "vision" that should ever be met with customer disatisfation, including your own apparently. Even with the handicapped flat/dumbed-down-looking iOS & OSX, at the moment with iPhone SE's/6S's and MacBook Airs still for sale, certain discerning customers have a choice. So your/my conjecture is just that for now. But I wonder what the consumer response would be should Apple really close the door and go sans headphone jack, usb 3.0, home-button, Function keys, and magsafe across the board. At that point I could unfortunately finally see the time I'd jump ship after 12 years of being a really satisfied Apple customer from 2005-2013 then a moderately dissatisfied Apple customer 2013-present. Why buy buttonless portless Apple icrap hardware priced 2-3x over similar non-Apple crap probably with better user flexibility of hardware? Guess we'll have to see.
Two differing opinions of posters who are easier to please and harder to please. Apples direction seems to not be what you are like and you are right, discerning customers have a choice. My take is, all customers are discerning, not just in the way of YOUR thinking. Your view of "discerning" is different than my view and I you don't know if I am any less "discerning" or what I (or others) focus on as being important.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Abazigal
More likely remove *all* ports from macbooks including power, and just have a wireless charging pad.
 
I don't find the software is sloppy or rushed - it's the hardware that's the problem. Either it's because of sloppy MacBook Pro keyboards, or just the lack of updates at all (Mac Pro, Mac Mini etc).

What Apple really needs is a Anal Perfectionist taking control over the MacOS. Sloppy rushed work.
 
Last edited:
Two differing opinions of posters who are easier to please and harder to please. Apples direction seems to not be what you are like and you are right, discerning customers have a choice. My take is, all customers are discerning, not just in the way of YOUR thinking. Your view of "discerning" is different than my view and I you don't know if I am any less "discerning" or what I (or others) focus on as being important.

Regarding "discerning customers have a choice" -- For those of us who want to stick with Apple while we still consider it to still be a better option than Windows, I'm fearing we soon will not have a choice as Apple moves away from ports/buttons/intuitive UI's in favor of software/vague-UI, especially if we want the top-of-the-line hardware/processor experience of the moment.

Let's see if SE/6s & MacBook Air type of options are available in 3-4 years before I wave the white (ironically white) flag and just sulk back to Windows after 13 years of Apple-only at home.

You sound like you consider my discerning views to be on the fringe....read thru many posts regarding "apple's direction" here or in other threads and there many who are unsatisfied with Apple's obvious prioritization towards vague/unintuitive software UI's and stripping-out of hardware/ports/buttons towards software-control...I love my LIFx bulbs but man, even 3 seconds of waiting to close a light in a room gets tedious over time. No matter how good swapping to software from hardware/buttons, until the software is as instantaneous as a mechanical port/button, there's a pretty big tradeoff with Apple's current super-sleek super-minimalist hardware/software experience that's being so ignored by AAPL. The MacBook Pro's touch bar also counts here, as I find myself using the function keys at least 3x a session for volume or brightness or music/audio control. No interest in a MBP without function keys. Taking the time to gather a dongle to connect various hardware that used to connect instantly via USB 2.0/3.0 counts here too.

Can't explain it any better than the above. For the many who want to stick with Apple and have access to the latest/greatest hardware, we may not want such a minimalist experience. Here, discerning customers do not have a choice.
 
Last edited:
Having Jony back is good news. I feel there may be some hope yet...
[doublepost=1512950711][/doublepost]The touch bar is ok, but bring back the function keys and put the touch bar above it. Mostly though, fix the keyboard problems. That's a deal breaker.

15" MBP with OUT the touch bar
 
Regarding "discerning customers have a choice" -- For those of us who want to stick with Apple while we still consider it to still be a better option than Windows, I'm fearing we soon will not have a choice as Apple moves away from ports/buttons/intuitive UI's in favor of software/vague-UI, especially if we want the top-of-the-line hardware/processor experience of the moment.

Let's see if SE/6s & MacBook Air type of options are available in 3-4 years before I wave the white (ironically white) flag and just sulk back to Windows after 13 years of Apple-only at home.

You sound like you consider my discerning views to be on the fringe....read thru many posts regarding "apple's direction" here or in other threads and there many who are unsatisfied with Apple's obvious prioritization towards vague/unintuitive software UI's and stripping-out of hardware/ports/buttons towards software-control...I love my LIFx bulbs but man, even 3 seconds of waiting to close a light in a room gets tedious over time. No matter how good swapping to software from hardware/buttons, until the software is as instantaneous as a mechanical port/button, there's a pretty big tradeoff with Apple's current super-sleek super-minimalist hardware/software experience that's being so ignored by AAPL. The MacBook Pro's touch bar also counts here, as I find myself using the function keys at least 3x a session for volume or brightness or music/audio control. No interest in a MBP without function keys. Taking the time to gather a dongle to connect various hardware that used to connect instantly via USB 2.0/3.0 counts here too.

Can't explain it any better than the above. For the many who want to stick with Apple and have access to the latest/greatest hardware, we may not want such a minimalist experience. Here, discerning customers do not have a choice.
I never mentioned “discerning” customer s, there is a subtext involved in that comment. Apple according to web estimates has 90 million customers. Expecting 100% satisfaction is impossible. I got you are unhappy with apple’s direction and maybe others are as well. But there are others who are satisfied with the products they are using.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tozovac
I never mentioned “discerning” customer s, there is a subtext involved in that comment. Apple according to web estimates has 90 million customers. Expecting 100% satisfaction is impossible. I got you are unhappy with apple’s direction and maybe others are as well. But there are others who are satisfied with the products they are using.

...and you are right, discerning customers have a choice.

Yes you did, though I meant no negative subtext whatsoever with that word. :)

Good God. :) I never suggested 100% satisfaction should be the target. Although it's not clear whether Apple will turn their back on the "headphone jack, home button, touch ID, function-key buttons" physical hardware-favoring crowd after the current SE/6s & MBA's get replaced, it's very clear that the only way to buy into the latest & greatest Apple hardware is to require being OK with a minimalist hardware/button/port-reduction mindset. That's just too bad and pretty shortsighted. I'm not a debating expert, but any enthusiastic fan here or Apple marketing whiz pointing to "customers are still buying XYZ" is not justification to assume "guess they really don't or wouldn't favor want ABC."
 
  • Like
Reactions: I7guy
No, I appreciated the design and products Jobs brought. I've been disappointed his company hasn't been able to keep up with his vision, despite keeping nearly all the same people. It's fine you don't appreciate me speculating, but I find it very interesting to see how such a small difference at the top--after all Jobs didn't do the designing--has led to rather big changes in the products. This giant and successful company is trying to do what it's always done, but just missing that one piece of the puzzle means we get a compromised iPhone X with a big ugly notch, rather than what could have been an iconic and beautiful piece of hardware. And of course there are lots of these small compromises we've seen that many, including myself like to point out.

I appreciate you speak for many who don't want to speak of Jobs for some reason. I don't get it, though, or at least I don't agree. I loved so many of the products he helped make, and still spend and inordinate amount of money on the somewhat lesser products his company now sells.

Respectfully, I'm going to continue.
Different people are needed at different points in a company history. Jobs was right for his era, but he would have been a disaster for the Cook era. Cook is amazing, and has been responsible for most of the achievements of Apple, but not the initial innovation and concept that Jobs provided. Cook has refined the culture and expanded it, and has done as fine a job as any CEO in American history, if not world business history.

The issue here is that you keep bringing up hypothetical scenarios which are impossible to prove or disprove. Who knows what Steve Jobs would have done. Maybe he might have signed off on the notch as well? The Apple Pencil? The iPhone smart battery case? The wireless mouse with the charging port located underneath?

Who knows what may have happened if Steve Jobs were still around. Maybe Apple would have stayed the same? Maybe Apple would have been worse off? Or better off?

Who knows. And there’s no way we can know unless you can peek into an alternate reality where Steve never died and compare notes. That’s why I feel any such comparison is regressive and counterproductive.

These people are so wrapped up in their own little world where only their own needs matter and nothing else that they are utterly incapable of comprehending that there is a wider world out there outside of the one they operate in.

Much less accept the fact that it’s perfectly acceptable for Apple not to serve their needs.

The way I see it, people are simply using Steve Jobs as a convenient excuse to bash anything Apple is doing today which they don’t like. And this is the only rebuttal they can come up with to hide the fact that they don’t understand business in general, and the fact that they don’t understand Apple.
 
  • Like
Reactions: I7guy
Who knows what may have happened if Steve Jobs were still around. Maybe Apple would have stayed the same? Maybe Apple would have been worse off? Or better off?

Who knows. And there’s no way we can know unless you can peek into an alternate reality where Steve never died and compare notes. That’s why I feel any such comparison is regressive and counterproductive.

These people are so wrapped up in their own little world where only their own needs matter and nothing else that they are utterly incapable of comprehending that there is a wider world out there outside of the one they operate in.

Much less accept the fact that it’s perfectly acceptable for Apple not to serve their needs.

Wouldn't it be equally as valid for some to believe they know what Steve would do today as it is for you to believe that Tim Cook is doing the best job ever, where I just wonder whether you're also speaking about the overall impact and "goodness" of products being created after 2013 vs before 2013 (usability issues critiques and all) and not just results based on revenue generation?

However. Ha ha. No matter how eloquent it's disagreed with: I find it astounding to feel that it's acceptable for a company like Apple to overlook serving the needs of a large group of consumers rather unhappy with the war on flexible UI/hardware interaction compared to pre-2013. I'm talking for the perspective of the company and not consumer. We're not arguing why Ferrari doesn't put out $20k entry-level cars so anyone has a shot at buying a Ferrari. We're talking about a company producing items intended for most all consumers above the poverty level and the large possibility of soon losing customer loyalties and their cash if they keep making the hardware and software experiences towards the "vague/less-intuitive/less-flexible" while expecting the hardware to do more each year....let's see how well this strategy is working out in 4-5 years after more frogs start feeling the water that should feel much hotter than today.

As far as the whole Steve prognostications: I think it's very fair to assume Steve would have run into the same "running out of low hanging fruit to pick and holes in the market to exploit" situation after the iPhone redefined phones and the iPad created a new niche between computer & phone (yes it's a niche and not a computer, no matter how much Apple marketers try to pretend today's iOS touch interface will ever replace a computer). So maybe he would have bought into smaller iPads, pencils, and the notch as a way to get into "bezel-less" sooner than later, etc. But no way in hell he would have ok'd the unintuitive Jony-minimalist UI/software ios7 crap that's still lingering in ios11. No way in hell. This I know for a fact, ha ha ha.
 
Last edited:
These people are so wrapped up in their own little world where only their own needs matter and nothing else that they are utterly incapable of comprehending that there is a wider world out there outside of the one they operate in.

Much less accept the fact that it’s perfectly acceptable for Apple not to serve their needs.

The way I see it, people are simply using Steve Jobs as a convenient excuse to bash anything Apple is doing today which they don’t like. And this is the only rebuttal they can come up with to hide the fact that they don’t understand business in general, and the fact that they don’t understand Apple.
Some people are so soulless that they cannot comprehend that Apple as the sole hardware provider has a unique responsibility to take care that the professional users they they woe (or previously tried to persuade) are reasonably covered by new hardware because the financial cost, general confusion and delay for new software development when switching platforms is a massive undertaking.

Apple promises that "it just works" when staying inside their ecosystem, but they forget to tell the story about how little regard they have for consistently make sure everything works over time and that they are the sole dictator of what exactly works dramatically more so than on any other platform.

Meanwhile their PR is more self satisfied than ever, with a number of executive hires primarily from fashion, media and finance, in that order. Problem is that finance people are generally clueless regarding tech and fashion people clueless regarding UX, and it shows.
 
Last edited:
Wouldn't it be equally as valid for some to believe they know what Steve would do today as it is for you to believe that Tim Cook is doing the best job ever, where I just wonder whether you're also speaking about the overall impact and "goodness" of products being created after 2013 vs before 2013 (usability issues critiques and all) and not just results based on revenue generation?
Both.

Last year, I purchased the 9.7" iPad Pro, Apple Pencil, AirPods and Apple Watch, and am still happily using them both for work and outside of work. When you airplay your iPad to the classroom projector and annotate on pdf documents using the pencil, it's just a sublime user experience. Apple excels in making technology more personal for its users and I find that the Tim Cook-era of products work great for me, even though they are not the conventional computers you would expect of Apple.

And Apple's own financial results speak for themselves, but in case people need reminding, this article (although a little outdated at end 2016, does a very good job of summing up Apple's successes, and Apple has only come further since then).

https://www.aboveavalon.com/notes/2016/12/6/milking-the-iphone

That said, I recall there being a ton of outcry when Steve Jobs first unveiled the iPod (critics said he should have just stuck with Macs), the iPad (as an answer to netbooks) and the MacBook Air (no cd drive). People also said there was no way the iPhone 4 could have sported that asymmetric antennae design, and it did.

So if people did not know what Steve Jobs would have done when he was alive, I fail to see how they can suddenly become experts at what Steve Jobs would have done after he was dead. Truth is, they are simply attempting to extrapolate from what he used to do, not realising that as times change, people's priorities too change and that Steve Jobs could have very well just thrown away everything you think you know about him in response to a new business environment.

However. Ha ha. No matter how eloquent it's disagreed with: I find it astounding to feel that it's acceptable for a company like Apple to overlook serving the needs of a large group of consumers rather unhappy with the war on flexible UI/hardware interaction compared to pre-2013. I'm talking for the perspective of the company and not consumer. We're not arguing why Ferrari doesn't put out $20k entry-level cars so anyone has a shot at buying a Ferrari. We're talking about a company producing items intended for most all consumers above the poverty level and the large possibility of soon losing customer loyalties and their cash if they keep making the hardware and software experiences towards the "vague/less-intuitive/less-flexible" while expecting the hardware to do more each year....let's see how things look in 4-5 years.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on just how "large" this group of consumers who are being underserved by Apple really are. I still think it's just a fairly niche group of extremely vocal critics (led by people like Marco Arment) who just happen to enjoy a bit of fame and have outsized online followings.

Maybe the price to be paid for Apple continuing its foray into wearables and self-driving cars is neglect of the Mac and maybe it's a reasonable price to be paid in the greater scheme of things.

Not saying that Apple should suddenly just shutter its Mac department and stop selling Macs altogether, but I do think Apple can streamline its Mac line-up (perhaps offer just the MacBook Pro and iMac and maybe even the Mac Pro as a concession to pro users?) to free up manpower and resources to focus on its mobile endeavours such as AR, and Mac users will simply have to accept and adapt.

As far as the whole Steve prognostications: I think it's very fair to assume Steve would have run into the same "running out of low hanging fruit to pick and holes in the market to exploit" situation after the iPhone redefined phones and the iPad created a new niche between computer & phone (yes it's a niche and not a computer, no matter how much Apple marketers try to pretend today's iOS touch interface will ever replace a computer). So maybe he would have bought into smaller iPads, pencils, and the notch as a way to get into "bezel-less" sooner than later, etc. But no way in hell he would have ok'd the unintuitive Jony-minimalist UI/software ios7 crap that's still lingering in ios11. No way in hell. This I know for a fact, ha ha ha.
Maybe Steve would have, maybe he wouldn't. Either way, the man is dead, and really has no say in how Apple is being run.

Maybe you don't agree 100%. Maybe even Steve would have his disagreements as well. It's Tim Cook's Apple now, and like it or not, he has his own vision and his own way of running Apple as he deems fit. If you want to criticise the man, then do it in context, by looking at what Tim Cook has done in its entirety and weighing his accomplishments against his missteps, not cherry-picking certain areas (eg: why is there still no new Mac Pro?!?), blowing them out of proportion and dragging Steve Jobs into the argument.

Something like what this writer has done, with well-reasoned and level-headed arguments.

https://www.aboveavalon.com/notes/2017/1/19/grading-tim-cook

And for what it's worth, I happen to like iOS 7. iOS 6 sufficed for what it needed to accomplish back then, but its UI was becoming more outdated by the day. I can't imagine myself having to continue using iOS 6 today.
 
  • Like
Reactions: I7guy
Why? Most people didn’t need or use it. Get an adapter instead of asking everyone else to buy a component that so few use.
It doesn't cost you anything (in fact the Macbook without one is more expensive than the one with one), and it doesn't hurt you when it just sits there unused, while it does hurt if you need it and it's not there.
 
I know this conversation is pretty much dead and over extended yet I think apple needs to very realistically brace for the day when Jony Ive cannot pen any more hits or gooses to leave Apple or retire!

Prior to 2015 his own words and that of commentary from Jobs widow stated that he maybe bored of his day to day duties. Then going to Apple Park work which I thought was part of a larger architecture design company, not I’ve.
 
Apple needs to stop with their "form over function" mindset. In the past, it was always on the borderline, but the products worked and little quirks didnt matter. But now? Look at the stupid dongles, how Apple is not even ashamed of them and kinda looks proud.
Look at the mouse - I mean it was soooo obvious that all they had to do is put a charging port on the front of it and it would make all sense in the world. But nooo, let's put it on the bottom, since it makes no sense at all.
The notch - It gives no extra function to the phone, it makes the ears completely useless and it cut into the status bar so now you cant even see all the turned on modes on phone.
MacBook with only USB C and no lightning port? good job on that one.
Apple battery case? dont get me started on that ugly monster.

He has much to fix. And that is even without mentioning iOS - people in control of its design and functionality need to be shot like some Chinese prisoners. It's that bad.
 
now we can get mac pro's !!!!! NICE

It was the influence of its design team to have made the last Mac Pro a big failure. Secondly it’s a pro machine.

Just in case you‘ve missed the ongoing discussions the last couple of years.
 
Apple needs to stop with their "form over function" mindset.
I would argue that the form enables the function, in this context.

Look at the mouse - I mean it was soooo obvious that all they had to do is put a charging port on the front of it and it would make all sense in the world. But nooo, let's put it on the bottom, since it makes no sense at all.
My guess is that Apple didn't want to mar the flawless finish of the mouse by inserting a charging port in the front (they wanted a continuous glass surface). So the next best alternative is to put the charging port at the bottom, since it's not like you are going to use the mouse with the lightning cable plugged in 24/7.

Maybe Apple did favour form over function here, but not by much.

The notch - It gives no extra function to the phone, it makes the ears completely useless and it cut into the status bar so now you cant even see all the turned on modes on phone.
It was either the notch, or added bezel on the top of the phone to accommodate Face ID, which in turn would require an added bezel at the bottom to maintain that symmetrical look, in which case you may as well just leave the home button back in. I feel it's the lesser of two evils here.

MacBook with only USB C and no lightning port? good job on that one.
Why do you need a lightning port again? For the lightning EarPods? To charge your Apple Pencil?

The Macbook is for users who value portability over everything else and don't mind giving up every port for it. Throw in that 3-in-1 adaptor and your needs are pretty much covered. Heck, Apple's largest regret here is likely that they couldn't do away with all ports altogether.

However, it's not that much cheaper than the 13" MBP without Touchbar. I feel Apple should either reduce its price further or drop it altogether.

Apple battery case? dont get me started on that ugly monster.
I happen to think the design is pretty clever. The hump is to prevent the battery from covering the antenna bands and interfering with the iPhone signal strength. You have a case which intelligently charges your iPhone instead of the user needing to manually toggle an "on" switch, and as a bonus, it charges via lightning too. It's all the little things which come together to create that unique Apple experience. Only issue I have is the price. In fact, many Apple-branded accessories seem to cost twice as much as they should.

I think that Apple's designs are more unorthodox than outright bad, and more misunderstood than anything else. They are uniquely Apple. That's all I can say.
[doublepost=1512992218][/doublepost]
It doesn't cost you anything (in fact the Macbook without one is more expensive than the one with one), and it doesn't hurt you when it just sits there unused, while it does hurt if you need it and it's not there.
The 2017 MBP is thinner and lighter than the 2015 MBP. I wouldn't go so far as to say that there was no opportunity cost in leaving all those ports in. Every port takes up that little extra bit of space, however little and inconsequential each may occupy on its own.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.