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I was never talking about the enterprise. The IT dept. mentality extends even to the consumer market. That's what I was referring to.

Apple has never been a major player in the enterprise, and they aren't now. There are others that fill that role. As far as I'm concerned others can continue to fill that role forever. Obviously, I'm just thinking as a consumer here. Apple addresses Joe Average's concerns, so fair enough. I'm pretty sure what enterprise presence they do have it well looked after, but I have little to no experience in that area.

Apple plays in the consumer market. They're currently worth more than Microsoft and Intel put together, and have $70 billion or so burning a hole in their pocket. They sell record numbers of nearly everything they make, quarter for quarter. Their Mac business has outpaced the PC market for more quarters than most people can remember.

(Where iPads are already making an impression.)

You're trying to create a problem which doesn't actually exist, but more likely we simply had a misunderstanding, probably because I wasn't being clear.

Apple trades just under 16 times earnings, Intel trades just under 10 times earnings and Microsoft trades just under 10 times earnings. A good bit of reason behind Apple's market capitalization is investor sentiment and as such it has a higher PE Ratio. From a conservative investor's standpoint they are overbought. You want an even bigger overbought company - Google has a PE Ratio just under 19 times earnings.

Microsoft has 50 billion cash on hand, Apple has just under 30 billion cash on hand and Google has just under 37 billion cash on hand.

I am not here to give you a lesson in investing, but come on man could you at least post proper numbers?

And as for your, "I was never talking about the enterprise" market this is what you wrote:

Time to get with reality, poindexter. In some circles the regular IT establishment *does not* dictate the course of tech.


My comments to you were in relation to that. Newsflash you're not the regular IT establishment you're the consumer market in the IT world.

Global enterprise spending in tech will be at least two trillion this year if not two and a half trillion. Unless Apple has any real plans to bridge the gap between their enterprise mobile market (iPhones iPads) and their really nonexistent enterprise server and workstation market - (they don't even sell real servers anymore) growth will not be as cataclysmic over the next decade as it has been in the past five years.

If Apple thinks it can bully enterprises as well as consumers into this App Store model then the little enterprise segment of the market they have will disappear. (Meaning the three guys in the design department using Photoshop on their Macbook Pros)

Jobs is a visionary, but its my opinion once he is gone the company will make the effort to go after the enterprise market share they are so severely lacking. I am willing to bet he is the roadblock to that and I am willing to bet they will put more focus on it with the next Chairman and CEO.
 
Because historically Apple has always immediately buckled every time someone threatens to pay Microsoft's licensing fees instead?

I don't care if Apple buckle under my pressure or wear belt buckles with "iDon't care what you think" emblazoned on them (though I totally agree that the latter is more likely than the former). Either way, with the current messed up volume licence situation and the lack of a viable server product when our xServes give up the ghost, I'm finding it very hard to suggest my employer keeps on buying Apple.

I love their stuff on a personal level, There's an iMac, a mini, a MBP an ipad and an iphone in this house and I will be upgrading them all to ios5 or lion as appropriate as soon as I can, but dealing with Apple on a business to business level is a whole bag of hurt.
 
I love these debates.

From what I've seen, there is a bootable .dmg in the installer package. While an average user won't know where to find that, an IT professional will be able to figure that out and put in on a USB for later use. The average user doesn't need it, they can download from the App Store and run the install. If they need to restore their system, they can do it from a Time Machine backup. Really no big deal.

Exactly. For the majority, .dmg will be useless, since they'll do their repairs/reinstalls through the recovery partition anyway. And if you want a bootable Lion install dvd, you still can have it without much trouble.

Some say that downloading is inconvenient and time consuming. So let me get this straight, it takes 6 hours, 8 hours, 24 hours whatever to download the file. OK I get that, but how is that worse than waiting several days for a package to ship, or spending time driving to an Apple Store to pick up a DVD? If you're in a dial up only area, chances are there isn't an Apple store right around the corner.

I've emphasized this point many times before, still some don't seem to get it.

The bottom line here is that some people just aren't comfortable with change. That's just the way it is. Others just like to complain and dump negativity all over everything no matter what. One poster mentioned that Apple could give away free ice cream and people would still complain, he's obviously right.

It's failure to adapt to a new situation psychologically. We all do it, some more than others. The same mechanism is at work when I look at an iPad and hate the way personal computing is going, but that's because I grew up with commodores and consoles. I'm the stupid one when I reject iPad because it's too "easy". But at least I realize it's because of my predispositions and not because the new toy is "bad".
 
Obviously, as so many have already pointed out, Apple is distributing Lion this way to get apple IDs and credit card numbers - essentially forcing the Mac App Store into viability and (from Apple's perspective) necessity for all Mac app makers.

Not so much to prevent piracy, but rather to get 30% revenue from every sold app *and* control the Mac experience. It is the walled garden the zealots claimed would never happen (and now claim is pretty neat!)

It is obviously a headache for IT and honestly no wonder. Apple (Steve Jobs specifically) has lost all interest in IT. He's not into growing into a market, he believes in quick fixes.

The Mac/PC "war" was lost, so milk the Mac for what it is worth and go to the next big thing. Apple is going 100% mobile. Everything from iPhones, through iPads to MacBook Airs, but anything heavier will be dropped.

And why not? According to the philosophy of Steve Jobs, the war is lost on the PC front and no particular growth potential there anyway, while a new and lucrative, highly controlled and high-margin market has opened.

The Macintosh is, for all intents and purposes, dead in the eyes of Steve Jobs.

A position I consider nothing short of insane. But then.. perhaps he has lost it. Apparently he thinks everyone has high-speed internet, a credit card and more money than common sense.

The axing of the XServe was an incredibly stupid move and ensured Apple will never become viable in the IT world.. The slow Mac Pro upgrades and the maintenance upgrades of the iMac demonstrate the downward spiraling path of the desktop machines.

As a Macintosh fan, I can't wait until Steve Jobs retires - just hope it won't be too late.
 
Obviously, as so many have already pointed out, Apple is distributing Lion this way to get apple IDs and credit card numbers - essentially forcing the Mac App Store into viability and (from Apple's perspective) necessity for all Mac app makers.

Glad to see someone else gets it. This ploy with "Download from the Mac App Store" is simply to force relevance for something that just isn't doing as good as they hope it would.

Notice how they gave App Store (the iOS one) numbers at WWDC's keynote, but they suspiciously didn't give any Mac App Store numbers at all. They want to bolster accounts/CCs registrations and download numbers. That's why Lion is a MAS "exclusive".
 
Glad to see someone else gets it. This ploy with "Download from the Mac App Store" is simply to force relevance for something that just isn't doing as good as they hope it would.

Notice how they gave App Store (the iOS one) numbers at WWDC's keynote, but they suspiciously didn't give any Mac App Store numbers at all. They want to bolster accounts/CCs registrations and download numbers. That's why Lion is a MAS "exclusive".

Yep. Their strategy is about a subtle as a brick. There's plenty of money and control to be had if Apple manages to pull that off. :cool:

I've had no problems acquiring Mac software to this moment without ever using the Mac app store, so I've never seen a reason to register - and because I don't see a reason to upgrade to Lion, they still aren't getting my credit card number, but it is going to work for a lot of people and card numbers.

It's *this* close to phishing, except they aren't going to abuse one's credit card. They're counting on us to do it ourselves :)
 
PPC apps and educational software

Well, Apple is going to have a lot of Td off educators if there is no Rosetta (or similar) support in Lion. Educational software is infamous about taking a long time to come up with upgrades, and many vintage programs no longer exist. If Apple wants to woo this market into upgrading, it had better take care of this important detail.
 
Obviously, as so many have already pointed out, Apple is distributing Lion this way to get apple IDs and credit card numbers - essentially forcing the Mac App Store into viability and (from Apple's perspective) necessity for all Mac app makers.

Not so much to prevent piracy, but rather to get 30% revenue from every sold app *and* control the Mac experience. It is the walled garden the zealots claimed would never happen (and now claim is pretty neat!)

Glad to see someone else gets it. This ploy with "Download from the Mac App Store" is simply to force relevance for something that just isn't doing as good as they hope it would.

Notice how they gave App Store (the iOS one) numbers at WWDC's keynote, but they suspiciously didn't give any Mac App Store numbers at all. They want to bolster accounts/CCs registrations and download numbers. That's why Lion is a MAS "exclusive".

Yep. Their strategy is about a subtle as a brick. There's plenty of money and control to be had if Apple manages to pull that off. :cool:

I've had no problems acquiring Mac software to this moment without ever using the Mac app store, so I've never seen a reason to register - and because I don't see a reason to upgrade to Lion, they still aren't getting my credit card number, but it is going to work for a lot of people and card numbers.

Thank You!!! This release is all about locking users in. Invest in enough apps and you hesitate to switch. I didnt even launch the MAS. I can get Adobe and MS products without the MAS. It ties in perfectly with the gift card with B2S promo - an attempt to inject some life into MAS.

Apple trades just under 16 times earnings, Intel trades just under 10 times earnings and Microsoft trades just under 10 times earnings. A good bit of reason behind Apple's market capitalization is investor sentiment and as such it has a higher PE Ratio. From a conservative investor's standpoint they are overbought. You want an even bigger overbought company - Google has a PE Ratio just under 19 times earnings.

Microsoft has 50 billion cash on hand, Apple has just under 30 billion cash on hand and Google has just under 37 billion cash on hand.

I am not here to give you a lesson in investing, but come on man could you at least post proper numbers?

And as for your, "I was never talking about the enterprise" market this is what you wrote:

Time to get with reality, poindexter. In some circles the regular IT establishment *does not* dictate the course of tech.


My comments to you were in relation to that. Newsflash you're not the regular IT establishment you're the consumer market in the IT world.

Global enterprise spending in tech will be at least two trillion this year if not two and a half trillion. Unless Apple has any real plans to bridge the gap between their enterprise mobile market (iPhones iPads) and their really nonexistent enterprise server and workstation market - (they don't even sell real servers anymore) growth will not be as cataclysmic over the next decade as it has been in the past five years.

Very good points but it will likely fall on deaf ears. He just goest thread to thread making a tangential contribution followed by whatever marketing buzzword SJ used and back it up with quarterly earnings.
 
Marginalizing some Apple users...

I know of more than one Apple user who is without internet service, and those who do Apple assumes to be in good standing with their credit, something required to open an iTunes/App Store ID. Just how far will Apple go, and at what cost to prove their "greener" than critics had lambasted them with?
 
dear *LTD*,

it's a fact that many apple users think the way you do. actually they don't like to think at all and let apple (or to be more accurate steve jobs) do the thinking for them. they don't have an opinion on their on and take whatever comes from apple. and this is the reason why they're called i-sheeps from many people out there.

i'm not saying it's a bad thing. if going down that road of non thinking fits their needs, be my guest. but you have to understand that there is a huge difference between people who bash on apple, regardless of what apple is doing just because they don't like apple and people who actually love apple products but do criticize apple from time to time because of the choices apple makes.

that said, if lion doesn't get the adoption rate apple wants it to get just because of the distribution method, then apple will silently begin to distribute lion the conventional way, e.g. on dvd or usb stick.
 
This entire App Store only situation is a mess.

Since this article clearly states it is not just App store only, your comment is a mess. Either you missed the point about using netinstall/netrestore, or you just missed the point of the article entirely.

To the rest of the fanatical lunatics on this thread:

1. This has nothing to do with a walled garden
2. Apple already has more cc numbers then anyone else
3. Enterprise it departments will not need a cc number on their MAS account to download the installer. They will use a redemption code.
4. Anyone in an Enterprse IT department supporting MACs already has an Appe ID.
5. Almost No one in an Enterprise It Department wants physical media.
6. For the one really inexperienced guy who does want physical media, even he could figure out how to make it.
7. These threads are always fun because they seem to be always be full of people who clearly have no experience with enterprise IT, yet they claim expertise.

Lion will not do anything to harm or improve Apple's position in the enterprise. They will continue to see some growth (slight) in the desktop area because there is more demand for Mac desktops in general. Most Enterprise IT departments will continue to stay in their closed minded little bubble of safety and get dragged along.

The lack of DVDs bing sold with lion means nothing to anyone but a very small collection of forum whiners.

Microsoft has 50 billion cash on hand, Apple has just under 30 billion cash on hand and Google has just under 37 billion cash on hand.

I am not here to give you a lesson in investing, but come on man could you at least post proper numbers?

I hope not since you missed Microsoft's >$13b in debt and Google's >$5b in debt. Or you thought it was not relevant. Either way, giving lessons would be a bad idea.

P.S. The number for Apple is $0.
 
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On top of ANY Linux kernel, the only package you need to install is BIND to make it a DNS Server as BIND has no dependencies.

Not. Quite. True.

You also need libcrypto (encryption), libz (compression) and of course, the C runtime library. ;)

Of course, the proper answer to Mr. Shaw's question is : RHEL is a bloated mess. But the answer is installing BIND on top of a minimal RHEL system, whatever that means (probably something around 400-500 packages that you'll never use, and 10 or so that will be useful (including things like OpenSSH, VIM, the fileutils, the different kernel tools and a filesystem).

I've had no problems acquiring Mac software to this moment without ever using the Mac app store, so I've never seen a reason to register -

Thank You!!! This release is all about locking users in. Invest in enough apps and you hesitate to switch. I didnt even launch the MAS. I can get Adobe and MS products without the MAS. It ties in perfectly with the gift card with B2S promo - an attempt to inject some life into MAS.

It's the same for me. There's just no draw to the Mac App Store at all. Steam has cheaper games (Civilization IV is the best example. They often have the complete collection for 5-8$, while the MAS had Colonization alone for 20$... wow...) and most of my other stuff is just open source software.

The only things I'd be stuck going MAS for are XCode and OS X. That's why I'm still using XCode 3.2 and silently shaking my fist at Apple for OS X.
 
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You just have to download it once. Then you can take the dmg and do whatever you please with it, just as if you had the install DVD. All Apple is doing here is removing the step to rip the damn thing.

People are unnecessarily worrying about this.

What annoys me is their inflexible new licensing scheme this past year with the AELP. The majority of my Macs on campus don't get regular OS updates until they are replaced in their usual 3-4 year cycle. I'm only concerned with keeping labs running the latest OS. Yet now the AELP requires me to licence the OS, iLife, and iWork, for hundreds of machines that don't need it. Bring back the standard Volume Licensing!
 
Exactly!

The USB flash drive is your friend here! Much more reliable to simply install multiple copies from the install files copied over to one of them than dealing with optical media, subject to scratches and fingerprints messing it up!

Heck, the Macbook Air has been doing this from day 1.


Why is it a PITA?

Download once, copy to flash drive, install on other Macs. Easy.
 
The USB flash drive is your friend here! Much more reliable to simply install multiple copies from the install files copied over to one of them than dealing with optical media, subject to scratches and fingerprints messing it up!

Heck, the Macbook Air has been doing this from day 1.

But the second plank of the opposition here is that the operating system will now be locked/tied to your apple I-D.

That to me is the 'deal killer'. Let's say I put in a new hard drive. Even if I have my backup USB stick, I won't be able to install the os unless I'm on the internet and my apple I-D is 'authorized' by Apple.

This is a troubling first for apple. Essentially locking down the os after 27 years.

And don't tell me it's to 'protect' their interests. As we know, Apple has been the most successfull company in the past decade, all the while having an os that was not 'copy protected'.
 
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But the second plank of the opposition here is that the operating system will now be locked/tied to your apple I-D.

That to me is the 'deal killer'. Let's say I put in a new hard drive. Even if I have my backup USB stick, I won't be able to install the os unless I'm on the internet and my apple I-D is 'authorized' by Apple.

This is a troubling first for apple. Essentially locking down the os after 27 years.

And don't tell me it's to 'protect' their interests. As we know, Apple has been the most successfull company in the past decade, all the while having an os that was not 'copy protected'.

Have you ever had your boot drive fail while you had no Internet access? And when that happened, did you happen to have your OS install DVD handy?

That's a rare confluence of events. Most people who need to reinstall the OS are more likely to have an Internet connection than their install disc.
 
That to me is the 'deal killer'. Let's say I put in a new hard drive. Even if I have my backup USB stick, I won't be able to install the os unless I'm on the internet and my apple I-D is 'authorized' by Apple.

You only need your AppleID when you download it, either from the app store or the restore partition.
 
Not. Quite. True.

You also need libcrypto (encryption), libz (compression) and of course, the C runtime library. ;)

The BIND documentation makes no mention of libcrypto or libz and I'm more inclined to believe it than you.

Code:
Building

	BIND 9 currently requires a UNIX system with an ANSI C compiler,
	basic POSIX support, and a 64 bit integer type.

glibc or a compatible library is a bit of an non-obvious.
 
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Wow... just ..... well, wow ....

I don't think you could get much further off the mark than with this nonsense below!

First off, how many digital software purchases have you made online? I've made quite a few, and I can tell you one thing. The Mac App Store provides a great solution to a problem in that area. So often, if you try to purchase an app online, you're put through a process where the developer outsources the purchasing process to a 3rd. party who takes your credit card info and emails you a registration key. If that registration key fails to work? Good luck! You're now stuck working with at least 3 parties to resolve the problem; the software developer, the merchant who sold you the key code, and your credit card company (or PayPal). 3 times now in the last 6 months or so, I've been screwed over when I paid to register a program in this manner and was either not ever sent the registration key I paid for, or was sent a non-functional one! 2 of those 3 times, it turned out the software developer didn't even speak English, so I was unable to communicate my problem successfully -- and the 3rd. party who processed the funds kept directing me back to the developer for assistance. My only resolution amounted to doing chargebacks and waiting 30 days or so to get my money back.

With the Mac App Store as a central site for these online purchases, backed by a solid company (Apple) who has a vested interest in making sure it processes orders correctly -- it's a far better bet to just buy through it than taking chances with these other online options.

And sure, as others have already pointed out, it has direct competition by way of such things as Valve's "Steam". In fact, I'd say Steam may turn out to be the "go to" guys for your OS X games if they continue to offer better prices and selection in that area. But it raises the bar for online software purchases, so serious competition has to meet certain expectations now. Good for everyone involved!

And as for all this "Mac vs. PC" stuff you're going on about? WHEN did Jobs ever say the "war is lost on the PC front" anyway? I recall several speeches of his where his point was always that "For Apple to win, it's not necessary that Windows PCs lose". Apple has NEVER really had any illusions that they'd surpass the total volume of Windows PC sales. In order to accomplish such a thing, they'd have to make a lot of BIG changes that don't fit their business plan whatsoever -- like cranking out lines of low-cost, relatively low-quality boxes available at discount stores. They thrive by offering sleek alternatives that cost a little bit more, but promise a better user experience all-around (with better support after the initial sale).

In that respect, nothing has changed. The Windows PC vendors haven't suddenly gotten a lot better at providing support after the sale. (Can you even name ONE who completely reversed a policy of using outsourced call centers for customer support in the last year or two?) When I call in to Apple, I still get native English speakers without horrendously long hold times. And unlike HP, Dell, Toshiba or most other brands, I can walk right into Apple retail stores for local support.

The iOS devices are surely a big profit center for Apple and have been opening up the Internet world to a whole segment of the population who never really used full-blown computers before. But that doesn't mean Apple will throw away the idea of desktop systems! The Mac Pro is getting a refresh in August, for example, and you can't simply "offer an equivalent on some portable device with iOS".


Obviously, as so many have already pointed out, Apple is distributing Lion this way to get apple IDs and credit card numbers - essentially forcing the Mac App Store into viability and (from Apple's perspective) necessity for all Mac app makers.

Not so much to prevent piracy, but rather to get 30% revenue from every sold app *and* control the Mac experience. It is the walled garden the zealots claimed would never happen (and now claim is pretty neat!)

It is obviously a headache for IT and honestly no wonder. Apple (Steve Jobs specifically) has lost all interest in IT. He's not into growing into a market, he believes in quick fixes.

The Mac/PC "war" was lost, so milk the Mac for what it is worth and go to the next big thing. Apple is going 100% mobile. Everything from iPhones, through iPads to MacBook Airs, but anything heavier will be dropped.

And why not? According to the philosophy of Steve Jobs, the war is lost on the PC front and no particular growth potential there anyway, while a new and lucrative, highly controlled and high-margin market has opened.

The Macintosh is, for all intents and purposes, dead in the eyes of Steve Jobs.

A position I consider nothing short of insane. But then.. perhaps he has lost it. Apparently he thinks everyone has high-speed internet, a credit card and more money than common sense.

The axing of the XServe was an incredibly stupid move and ensured Apple will never become viable in the IT world.. The slow Mac Pro upgrades and the maintenance upgrades of the iMac demonstrate the downward spiraling path of the desktop machines.

As a Macintosh fan, I can't wait until Steve Jobs retires - just hope it won't be too late.
 
Have you ever had your boot drive fail while you had no Internet access? And when that happened, did you happen to have your OS install DVD handy?

That's a rare confluence of events. Most people who need to reinstall the OS are more likely to have an Internet connection than their install disc.

Whatever dude. My issue is more philisophical, which is that Apple is now essentially 'locking down' the mac os.

Again, if they were a company that was bleeding money because of Mac OSx piracy, I'd get it... but that's hardly the case.
 
Whatever dude. My issue is more philisophical, which is that Apple is now essentially 'locking down' the mac os.

Again, if they were a company that was bleeding money because of Mac OSx piracy, I'd get it... but that's hardly the case.

How are they locking it down? Three posts up it is pointed out you only need the apple id to download the OS. Once you burn it to disk or copy it to a flash drie you can install it freely.

In exchange for this, you no longer have to worry about finding that OS install disk you stuck in a box somewhere.
 
How are they locking it down? Three posts up it is pointed out you only need the apple id to download the OS. Once you burn it to disk or copy it to a flash drie you can install it freely.

In exchange for this, you no longer have to worry about finding that OS install disk you stuck in a box somewhere.

Well see about that.

My guess is that before any install, it will have an opening kiosk page that will ask you for your apple ID and try to connect to the internet.

I've got a computer in the house (My daughters) that I prefer NOT to have authorized. So I wonder whether that image I make of the os will allow me to install it on her computer without putting in the apple ID.
 
Well see about that.

My guess is that before any install, it will have an opening kiosk page that will ask you for your apple ID and try to connect to the internet.

Your guess is wrong. The installer doesn't work that way now, and it probably won't change with so little time before release.
 
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