Bingo. It sure seems like it's the direction that it's heading.
I, for one don't like it.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Discontinuing Java Installation Packages for Mac OS X?
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Bingo. It sure seems like it's the direction that it's heading.
I, for one don't like it.
Folks, take a deep breath.
Nobody said Java wouldn't run on OSX. They are saying that it'll be up to Oracle to support it now; just exactly like they do for Windows and Linux platforms. That's all this is about.
If I was a Java developer (perish the thought, but hypothetically
) I'd have to think I'd be happy about this:
Now you can look for the same updates and support on OSX as you'd have on Linux or Windows. (Loud whisper: "You won't have to wait for Apple to get around to it anymore!")
(And to Java developers in general: By now you have to realize the stock client-side Java UI on OSX is un-Mac-like and fugly.)
Nobody said Java wouldn't run on OSX. They are saying that it'll be up to Oracle to support it now; just exactly like they do for Windows and Linux platforms. That's all this is about.
If I was a Java developer (perish the thought, but hypothetically
) I'd have to think I'd be happy about this:Now you can look for the same updates and support on OSX as you'd have on Linux or Windows. (Loud whisper: "You won't have to wait for Apple to get around to it anymore!")
(And to Java developers in general: By now you have to realize the stock client-side Java UI on OSX is un-Mac-like and fugly.)
You couldn't be further from the truth: Java is absolutely huge in the enterprise space and going from strength to strength
Java != flash. Flash is used primarily on end-user web sites. Java is the dominant language used for enterprise applications. If there is no Java on OS X, the Mac will lose both the software engineers that develop the software and the end-users that use the software.
Apple thinks they can force people to change their websites to not use Flash, and they're probably right. However, there are billions of dollars spent that revolve around Java in the enterprise. Apple does not have the power to make them convert and and decision makers will just make the call to migrate back to Windows 7, Ubuntu, or something else.
I don't expect people who haven't spent their entire career in the software engineering field to understand how significant this is- undoubtedly one might think that since they have no Java applications installed on their laptop that this is a non-issue. It isn't. Consumer-based software is only a tiny fraction of all the software written, even though it is usually all the consumer ever sees. We're not just talking small shops that have converted to Macs, either. Many folks involved with Java at places like Google also use Apple hardware.
Apple thinks they can force people to change their websites to not use Flash, and they're probably right. However, there are billions of dollars spent that revolve around Java in the enterprise. Apple does not have the power to make them convert and and decision makers will just make the call to migrate back to Windows 7, Ubuntu, or something else.
I don't expect people who haven't spent their entire career in the software engineering field to understand how significant this is- undoubtedly one might think that since they have no Java applications installed on their laptop that this is a non-issue. It isn't. Consumer-based software is only a tiny fraction of all the software written, even though it is usually all the consumer ever sees. We're not just talking small shops that have converted to Macs, either. Many folks involved with Java at places like Google also use Apple hardware.
No, this is incorrect, it was Apple who asked to develop Java VM for OSX. Apple didn't want Sun to develop the OSX VM, Apple wanted to do it themselves and became lackluster ( despite SJ saying he wanted OSX to be the best Java platform ). At this point in time, Oracle didn't own Java.
The Apple VM is certified Java and isn't impacted by any patents, in the same why IBM aren't, who also wrote their own Java VM.
The Apple VM is certified Java and isn't impacted by any patents, in the same why IBM aren't, who also wrote their own Java VM.
Sounds like a good Poll
I think MR should have a poll whether people think Oracle will support Java for OS X or not.
I think MR should have a poll whether people think Oracle will support Java for OS X or not.
Potentially Terrifying, but hopefully Oracle picks up slack
First off, it seems everyone is in two camps here. 1) this is horrible or 2) Good riddance. This would be horrible if Java goes away, but it may not. As the article states Oracle may be ready to pick up the slack. The Apple announce is precisely worded that Apple installation packages are going away, not that Java is going away.
Second for those of you in the "good riddance" camp, I will agree that that there are few Java apps necessary for end-users. However for software and web developers this is an entirely different story. The open-source Eclipse development environment, and it's commercial variants are essential for web development on the Mac. It's pretty simple, if you program for the web in PHP, Python, Ruby, or even J2EE you need a development environment. ALL development environments are written in Java. Java is a great platform for fancy text editor and file manipulators. In addition most database front ends, such as Navicat use Java. Java is perfect for these types of tools, as they enable relatively small groups of developers to create useful tools for all three platforms (Win, Mac, Linux), and generally these tools also work well. While web and app developers may not be the largest group of Mac users, we are probably some of the loudest and most passionate and most evangelical. However, without Java, I'd probably have to switch to Windows or Linux just to get my work done . . . not something I'm looking forward to.
First off, it seems everyone is in two camps here. 1) this is horrible or 2) Good riddance. This would be horrible if Java goes away, but it may not. As the article states Oracle may be ready to pick up the slack. The Apple announce is precisely worded that Apple installation packages are going away, not that Java is going away.
Second for those of you in the "good riddance" camp, I will agree that that there are few Java apps necessary for end-users. However for software and web developers this is an entirely different story. The open-source Eclipse development environment, and it's commercial variants are essential for web development on the Mac. It's pretty simple, if you program for the web in PHP, Python, Ruby, or even J2EE you need a development environment. ALL development environments are written in Java. Java is a great platform for fancy text editor and file manipulators. In addition most database front ends, such as Navicat use Java. Java is perfect for these types of tools, as they enable relatively small groups of developers to create useful tools for all three platforms (Win, Mac, Linux), and generally these tools also work well. While web and app developers may not be the largest group of Mac users, we are probably some of the loudest and most passionate and most evangelical. However, without Java, I'd probably have to switch to Windows or Linux just to get my work done . . . not something I'm looking forward to.
Anytime Apple is behind on a tech, or drops it, or locks it out, this is the answer. Does it get uncomfortable with Jobs pulling your strings? Sheesh.
I think this is true for both sides of the debate. In reality, the impact of this change is probably very, very minor, in that you will go to Oracle for you install packages and updates. Oracle does a descent job distributing Java for other platforms, why can't they do the same for Mac OS X? In fact, they will.
caaaalm
1) Steve Jobs and Ellison are good friends, if memory serves. Apple may very well have knowledge that Oracle WILL in fact take up supporting Java for OS X. They tend to not do things rashly.
2) Apple is VERY interested in pushing Macs in the enterprise space. I know this to be an absolute fact, due to the nature of my job. They are not going to make big moves to alienate enterprise customers. In fact, every single release of OS X adds MORE support for Macs in enterprise operations, not less. They are NOT giving up this market -- they have been WAY too successful breaking into it over the last couple of years, to start moving backwards now.
CALM, people. Sheesh.
1) Steve Jobs and Ellison are good friends, if memory serves. Apple may very well have knowledge that Oracle WILL in fact take up supporting Java for OS X. They tend to not do things rashly.
2) Apple is VERY interested in pushing Macs in the enterprise space. I know this to be an absolute fact, due to the nature of my job. They are not going to make big moves to alienate enterprise customers. In fact, every single release of OS X adds MORE support for Macs in enterprise operations, not less. They are NOT giving up this market -- they have been WAY too successful breaking into it over the last couple of years, to start moving backwards now.
CALM, people. Sheesh.
It'd be pretty hard for Oracle to make the case that Java is ubiquitous if they didn't.
I'll bet there is an announcement from Oracle before the end of the day that says they will be picking up the slack (and knowing how Ellison rolls, he'll put a "more current and more secure" spin on it).
This is nothing but Intarwebz forum histrionics over a simple business decision to pass the Java-on-OSX baton back to Oracle/Java, where it belongs.
Excuse me for not knowing something and asking a question. So sorry that being "clueless" offends you so much.I see that Stella was nice enough to answer my question, thanks for that. But as for you who thinks I'm an idiot for not knowing anything about Java, I hope you never need any Final Cut Pro questions answered because I'll probably not feel like helping you out.
We're not all experts at everything.
In some spaces... yes. And we should differentiate applications from servers. How many are writing applications that are distributed on desktops as opposed to app servers?
Totally agree
I totally agree - and think this is where they are going. Oracle (Sun) has never actually made a port of Java for OS X - it has always been Apple's team. Why should Apple have to pay for the development on this? I think this is where it's going. I think they are going to finally make Oracle (Sun) responsible for making their own ports for OS X.
I totally agree - and think this is where they are going. Oracle (Sun) has never actually made a port of Java for OS X - it has always been Apple's team. Why should Apple have to pay for the development on this? I think this is where it's going. I think they are going to finally make Oracle (Sun) responsible for making their own ports for OS X.
Interesting. I had the impression before that Java/Javascripting was a strong future support thing with Apple.
Not at all, as much as I don't like using Java... it's very much prevalent in the computer industry.
I agree.
They're supporting VirtualBox and it's quite good now. They've done a great job, it's working better for me than Parallels, and I believe they'll do the same with Java.
so much fail in this thread....
Apple doesnt want to make their own JVM anymore. And OSX is the only major platform where the manufacturer builds and uses their own JVM.
Windows? JVM from Oracle
Linux? JVM from Oracle
It would be beyond stupid if Oracle did not make a JVM for OSX. Its makes no sense.
All these idiots in here crying about "oh no, no more java on Mac!"
Please. Java is not going anywhere. I bet Oracle has had their own JVM for Mac for years. Hell, it might of been Oracle who convinced Apple to stop using their own JVM...
Apple doesnt want to make their own JVM anymore. And OSX is the only major platform where the manufacturer builds and uses their own JVM.
Windows? JVM from Oracle
Linux? JVM from Oracle
It would be beyond stupid if Oracle did not make a JVM for OSX. Its makes no sense.
All these idiots in here crying about "oh no, no more java on Mac!"
Please. Java is not going anywhere. I bet Oracle has had their own JVM for Mac for years. Hell, it might of been Oracle who convinced Apple to stop using their own JVM...
[sorry for the long diatribe in advance, but I've been thinking about this recently]
I know a lot of articles these days are written to encourage this kind of paranoia, but what Apple's been doing lately hasn't differed much from what they've always done, and makes a lot of sense.
Let's take the iPhone, for example. Or first, the original iPods. They needed to be simple, efficient, and immediately usable. Apple didn't let anyone modify the software at all, and only started allowing a few add-on games late in the line. Now we have the iPhone, which in addition to all of the iPod's requirements, has to be incredibly reliable. Yet Apple found a safe way to allow anyone to write add-ons for the thing. Sure, they want to take a cursory look to make sure it's something they feel is a good fit for their product, but you have a store with tens or hundreds of times more applications available to it that the iPods ever had, from the smallest of developers. On a phone. Arguably this is more empowering, not less, than they've been in the past.
(I'll say nothing of the still-existent ability to trivially hack the device and run whatever you want.)
Now the Mac has never had such stringent requirements, and it wouldn't make any sense to suddenly impose them. While Apple developed and maintains an App Store on the iPhone out of what they consider necessity (largely for control), they've found it has an additional effect of being hugely convenient for selling and updating small (and even some not-so-small) applications. I've bought a ton of little games and apps through the store in two taps that I never would have sought out manually, entered my personal info and credit card for each individually, and downloaded and kept up with updates otherwise. Something they've worked hard on developing, that improves accessibility for both the user and developer should of course be considered for inclusion on the Mac.
If Apple is bringing App Store access to the Mac as an ease-of-use-promoting option, it makes sense to limit what you'll find there in some ways. For example, applications should be easy to install and uninstall - something specifically promoted in the presser yesterday. This means no dependencies on optional packages that would need to be installed separately and maybe-or-maybe-not uninstalled later (Java, etc), no kernel extensions, no administrator privileges, I imagine no added System Preferences, no required reboots, etc. Everything should be clean and simple and leave the system as it found it. This is what the "App Store" is known for.
All other apps are of course welcome as always, if not more so. Apple took time to give props to its hugely expanding Mac developer base in the presser, including Valve who's Steam I'm not sure would fit in the App Store model. The Mac App Store will just be another venue to give developers large and small better visibility for the simpler, but extremely useful, applications that are so plentiful on the Mac. I'm sure I'll be willing to pay for more of them when my information is already pre-entered (and kept moderately-private by going through Apple) and the Apps are a couple clicks away. But it's not going to stop me from going out and getting the less-simple applications like I always have.
Programs like Xcode and maybe Final Cut Pro probably wouldn't make it into an App Store, after all. It's not even remotely supposed to be the be all end all of what's worthwhile running on your Mac.
The thing is: If Apple really had a deal with Oracle why not just say so? That would make Apple look much more mature and maybe some people might actually begin to take them seriously in an enterprise setting.
I really hope you're right and that Oracle will pick up the slack but I don't really see why they should. OS X is almost nonexistent in the enterprise space.
I really hope your right Nicky - I really like OSX and ( and like others on this board ) would hate to have to switch to Linux ( or windows, god forbid ) due of lack of Java support.
If Oracle pick up Java VM that will be great - we'll start getting timely Java releases. However, this is uncertain at this point in time.
If Oracle pick up Java VM that will be great - we'll start getting timely Java releases. However, this is uncertain at this point in time.