Apple Discontinuing Java Installation Packages for Mac OS X?

[Cleverboy]

Yep, this is not a great idea on Apple's part...
Since they licensed Java from SUN and then did the Mac port on their own, it would be a disaster if they abandoned future development or just ceased keeping up with current revisions.
Bad, bad, bad...

It's clear all of this stems from one thing, and not the thing most people are leaping to. Java and Flash have security issues that exist independent of Apple's ability to patch or fix. As they coordinate product and software launches, its becoming difficult to launch a FULLY TESTED release if unexpectedly a ZERO-DAY security fix occurs just days beforehand. What are the odds? Well, its already happened. The latest MacBook Air updates fix Java security flaws that were present in the software tested and cloned onto all the shipping hardware. While its all fine and good to call Apple out on being insular, all they're saying is that as an "integrator" they've gotten more criticism than not by integrating things like Java and Flash. If they can't reliably set their own schedules and be timely, then they might as well place these responsibilities in customer's hands.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2163795/java-pre-installed-in-windows-and-linux

I know that Java is pre-installed in Mac OS X but i wonder if it is pre-installed in Windows XP, Vista, 7 and all Linux distros?

Java isn't preinstalled in any Windows version (OEM not included - depends on the manufacturer then). I think it is not common in Linux distributions at all, but I don't want to make a general statement about ALL distros here ;-)

So, when Apple decides to stop holding everyone's hand on certain technologies it thinks are waning, suddenly its Apple's fault?

Ho hum. I've enjoyed switching to Mac for the past 3 years, but this is a dealbreaker for me. I'm a software developer, and I need Java (Eclipse, IntelliJ) - thus I need a well supported JVM with good hooks into the native UI. Whilst this has never been perfect on OS X (screen repaints have been pretty poor on resize), it was acceptable. I suspect Apple won't upstream their changes, and I doubt the platform is big enough for Oracle to care much about doing a native port - after all, what's in it for them?

Wow. So, Linux is bigger than Mac OS X.

Moreover, Oracle owns MySQL as well... you're saying Oracle can fashion MySQL installations for multiple versions of Mac OS X but NOT Java installations?

I find that hard to believe.

With Apple's relevance increasing and platform footprint on the rise, I think its a mistake to think this means the end of Java on OS X, any more than Microsoft's decision not to pre-install Java did during that epic fallout.

http://www.java.com/en/download/manual.jsp

~ CB

 

[hugodrax]

I use Java extensively for OS X and it has been rock solid. I require Java for my trading software etc..

Does this mean OS X will not support running Java applications in the future?

 

[IMPMAC]

This does not mean that java will not work anymore am sure x11 or something like that will be able to run it, what about java for the web?

Does Microsoft make their port of Java?

But it is true, Java on Mac OS X is depreciated, it does suck compared to apps written in objective C.

 

[Stridder44]

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A sad day.

Quite a portion of Java developers use OSX. OSX makes a very nice Development environment, far better than windows.

Here's hoping that Oracle pick up Java for OSX, otherwise say good bye to apps like OpenOffice and a whole section of users ( i.e., Java developers - Java is ranked 1 or 2 most used language.

The notion that Java is slow is a myth, by the way.

Its quite irontic that Apple are deprecating Java on OSX since Apple use Java quite a lot - for example, Apple discussion board is JSP.

Yeah I don't know what to think about Apple at the moment. This is not a good move- hopefully Oracle will pick up the ball and start delivering updates. Apple's gettin a bit out of hand with these restrictions.

 

[jajohns8]

Everybody should calm down a bit and wait until we know for sure that this isn’t a move to push off the Java responsibility to Oracle instead of Apple. This would be good news since Oracle/Sun is much faster at fixing java issues than Apple.

The less third-party frameworks (Flash/Java) that Apple has to maintain is a good thing, not a bad thing. Apple can shift the Apple engineers onto something else and the companies that made those frameworks need to maintain it for OS X. Apple is starting to get a lot of influence on the market that those companies can not ignore Apple anymore like they did in the past.

I think the flash issue is separate because it is more about compatibility than maintenance.

Apple having a 'lot of influence on the market' isn't necessarily a great thing for anything other than Apple making more money.

They can lose that 'influence' just as quickly as they are gaining it by making a few poor choices.

 

[57004]

Well, to be fair on Apple, it might not have been up to them.

It's recently been in the news that since Oracle took over Sun they have been withdrawing support for OpenSolaris, and OpenOffice recently started on their own. I get the impression that Oracle is not as friendly towards open source as Sun was.

It may just be that Oracle didn't want Apple distributing their own version of Java anymore because they want to keep control over the product, just like they did with OpenSolaris.

Of course this is just theorizing on my part, I wonder if we're going to hear more about the reasons behind this.

 

[wilycoder]

Well, to be fair on Apple, it might not have been up to them.

It's recently been in the news that since Oracle took over Sun they have been withdrawing support for OpenSolaris, and OpenOffice recently started on their own. I get the impression that Oracle is not as friendly towards open source as Sun was.

It may just be that Oracle didn't want Apple distributing their own version of Java anymore because they want to keep control over the product, just like they did with OpenSolaris.

Of course this is just theorizing on my part, I wonder if we're going to hear more about the reasons behind this.

Yep, exactly.

Oracle ain't nice like Sun was.

 

[Swift]

Bye-bye

The truth is, Java has become, along with Adobe Reader and Flash -- whatever you think of the utility of the software -- a security nightmare. I'd think that supporting it for all machines, looking backward, is just too hard. It is supported now.

Before the Java programmers object, Apple's basic policy has always been to keep a tight hold on any language sending commands within its OS. Contrast that with Windows, which even wrote a handy series of commands that could trigger .exe's being executed when you simply visit a website, and is much more promiscuous about accepting external command structures -- which has been, for at least five years, a nightmare and a very strong vector for infection.

I've maintained a Windows computer during that time, and it's no picnic. First Windows said Java was too slow, and insisted on its own virtual machine, and then it gets fast enough, but a superhighway for infection and hacking. The stream of updates is hard to keep up with.

 

[Stridder44]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8B117 Safari/6531.22.7)

Well, to be fair on Apple, it might not have been up to them.

It's recently been in the news that since Oracle took over Sun they have been withdrawing support for OpenSolaris, and OpenOffice recently started on their own. I get the impression that Oracle is not as friendly towards open source as Sun was.

It may just be that Oracle didn't want Apple distributing their own version of Java anymore because they want to keep control over the product, just like they did with OpenSolaris.

Of course this is just theorizing on my part, I wonder if we're going to hear more about the reasons behind this.

I hope you are right. That would be much better verses not having Java ever updated again.

 

[bdkennedy1]

Well, I imagine that the Java packages will be distributed through the Mac App Store, so there's no reason for Apple to waste their resources on it.

 

[czeluff]

I am a Java developer, and I am a HUGE advocate of this. Oracle will do a better job of implementing Java on OSX. This frees up more of Apple's software engineers to work on more important things.

I love how people complain that OSX became bloated after Tiger, and yet when Apple takes steps to make the OS faster, they complain. Choose a side, people. You can't have both. I'd prefer more of Apple's staff focus on new Lion features, iOS, the Darwin base, etc.

And yes, Oracle will be taking this over. This isn't the same as the argument against Flash. Apple doesn't want Flash, because they feel that BETTER technologies (HTML5) exist. There is no "better" form of Java than Java.

 

[stompy]

I'm a software developer, and I need Java (Eclipse, IntelliJ) - thus I need a well supported JVM with good hooks into the native UI. Whilst this has never been perfect on OS X (screen repaints have been pretty poor on resize), it was acceptable.

I suspect Apple won't upstream their changes, and I doubt the platform is big enough for Oracle to care much about doing a native port - after all, what's in it for them?

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As an organisation too we were about to buy a bunch of Pro-level machines (were waiting for the 2.8 speedbump on the Macbook), but we'll have to reconsider this now. OS X has turned from a great UNIX development environment into a graveyard over the last few years (no ZFS, kernel still has terrible memory management, no 10.7 features that are interesting at all).

:-(

Basically the same spot as you. Developers here had been switching over for all their work.

And for those who are saying "I never liked Java apps", "does Java still exist?" etc.... Java's doing fine on the server side. This decision will likely make it difficult to use or justify buying a Mac to do any work in my office.

 

[err404]

Check for installed dependencies.

This is EXACTLY what Apple does not want to be responsible for. An App store app should not be a risk is failing because of a third party runtime update.

Or all d/loads will become humongous and largely duplicative or attempting to install old versions over newer.

No, only apps purchased from the App Store that use these runtimes will become "humongous and largely duplicative". The upside is that App Store apps will be more portable and consistent in performance and stability.

Frankly is already very common for Java based apps to be bundled with a specific JRE for just this reason.

 

[stompy]

I am a Java developer, and I am a HUGE advocate of this. Oracle will do a better job of implementing Java on OSX. This frees up more of Apple's software engineers to work on more important things.

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And yes, Oracle will be taking this over. This isn't the same as the argument against Flash. Apple doesn't want Flash, because they feel that BETTER technologies (HTML5) exist. There is no "better" form of Java than Java.

I wish I had more assurance than an anonymous post on internets.

If Oracle does take over, it's a good thing, Apple's Java on the Mac has been... interesting.

 

[dieselm]

This is an Oracle issue

Now that Oracle owns Java, Apple can't risk being put over a barrel if Oracle changes licensing terms or decides not to license. To the extent there are critical or "must have" pieces of software on the Mac platform which require Java, Oracle has a big stick to demand payment from Apple for a continued Java license.

This won't stop Oracle from releasing Java versions for Mac. Arguably, this would be the right solution for both parties.

 

[elppa]

Anyone have a list handy of what popular OSX-based applications still require Java? I know one of the "Quicken replacements" applications I tried recently was Java based (just from the fugly UI).

No list that I am aware of, but we can start writing one:
Open Office
Cyberduck
Netbeans
Eclipse

 

[hugodrax]

Well, I imagine that the Java packages will be distributed through the Mac App Store, so there's no reason for Apple to waste their resources on it.

If that is the case thats good. As long as Java will be on OS X.

 

[macsmurf]

And yes, Oracle will be taking this over

Why would Oracle do that?

 

[JohnDoe98]

This is kinda funny. People were complaining about flash not being packaged with the new MBA, but its clear that they will now do this with everything to force companies to start using their App store. My only question is, does it cost money to put an App in the App store? For example, if some open source third-party App like Perian wants in, will they be granted it? And if not, will they still be able to get automatic updates through system preferences or will Apple force that all into the App store, and thus those who don't follow the rules of the new App store model will be forced out of auto-updates and get the shaft? That could be a real nuisance for the customer service. I'm not sure I like this direction.

 

[Hastings101]

I hope this doesn't mean the end of Java on OS X, I use it many times everyday for work related tasks and many games as well, I would have to go back to Windows. Hopefully this really is just a rumor, or that Oracle will start releasing their own updates.

 

[err404]

Fud

And for those who are saying "I never liked Java apps", "does Java still exist?" etc.... Java's doing fine on the server side. This decision will likely make it difficult to use or justify buying a Mac to do any work in my office.

Just install the inevitable Oracle provided runtime and enjoy improved security and compatibility.
The compatibility of Apple's Java implementation was terrible anyway. If Oracle is willing to support java on Linux, why do you think they wouldn't support OSX with it's larger market share?

 

[jajohns8]

....This isn't the same as the argument against Flash. Apple doesn't want Flash, because they feel that BETTER technologies (HTML5) exist. There is no "better" form of Java than Java.

Thank you.

People are coming out of the woodwork to blindly defend apple 'at all costs' without knowing what they are talking about again.

There is a reason The Onion made fun of apple fan boys.

 

[cld9731]

Monumentally stupid.

I have to say - I have been praising Apple on a number of front's - but this really takes the cake. It is monumentally stupid (no other way to put it). Alienates an entire developer community - who no doubt is immediately thinking of another place to develop their software (Linux, Windows 7). Keep in mind that Java primarily is being used by enterprise (read: corporate) and web (read : large market) developers. Unfortunately for Apple this is yet another black mark ... right next to the support for Flash fiasco. Nothing will propel developers to a different platform faster than these kind of short-sighted acts. The fact is some of the most influential proponents of Apple are developers - when you start alienating developer communities - bad things happen.

 

[KnightWRX]

Yeah I don't know what to think about Apple at the moment. This is not a good move- hopefully Oracle will pick up the ball and start delivering updates. Apple's gettin a bit out of hand with these restrictions.

I'm siding with Apple on this one. This isn't a restriction, this is a blessing.

Apple has been just terrible with Java updates. Giving the keys to the kingdom to someone better focused on making Java work on OS X is a good move for both developers and users alike. Apple just wasn't keeping up properly and their implementation of the Java runtime was suffering terribly because of it.

Given that WebOjects relies heavily on Java, I'd think this is what Apple is hoping too, that Oracle/IBM/OpenJDK guys step up and provide OS X with a working, up-to-date JRE and can maintain it properly.

 

[macsmurf]

Just install the inevitable Oracle provided runtime and enjoy improved security and compatibility.
The compatibility of Apple's Java implementation was terrible anyway. If Oracle is willing to support java on Linux, why do you think they wouldn't support OSX with it's larger market share?

The Linux market share server side is huge. That's why.