I think Eclipse and Netbeans are the biggies, but another app I use regularly is Visual Paradigm (UML Modeling tool)
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Apple Discontinuing Java Installation Packages for Mac OS X?
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I think Eclipse and Netbeans are the biggies, but another app I use regularly is Visual Paradigm (UML Modeling tool)
Excuse me for not knowing something and asking a question. So sorry that being "clueless" offends you so much.
I see that Stella was nice enough to answer my question, thanks for that. But as for you who thinks I'm an idiot for not knowing anything about Java, I hope you never need any Final Cut Pro questions answered because I'll probably not feel like helping you out.
We're not all experts at everything.
No its the way you "asked the question". I think we all saw what you were trying to convey with said question.
Well its clearly better in many cases but the App store won't allow a lot of programs that run system wide (and thereby don't follow their strict rules), and so they will potentially no longer be capable of profiting from updates through the consolidated system. What do you think of that?
Wait, they're dropping Quicktime too ?
How is that different from what we have today ? Apps ship with their own updaters. Apps that aren't using the Mac App store will continue to ship with their own updaters. Status quo.
Hardly a reason to ship out of date and broken Java.
I do think that this particular restriction on the Mac App store makes no sense, or the one about kext's, or the one against mpkgs, but I can see how Apple wants to keep the Mac App Store stuff dead simple. Basically, anything without a dependency that doesn't require anything but dragging the app to the /Application folder.
You should not relate both things together. One is good, one is bad but understandable. The Mac App Store is optional.
Um, because Java is their product? If they don't support as many platforms as possible, Java becomes less relevant. Failing to support OSX will hurt Oracle more then anybody else. Losing 10% of your market reach is a BIG deal.
Java is already irrelevant on the desktop side. OS X is largely irrelevant server side.
Most of the large Java desktop applications are Java IDEs anyway. Why would Oracle care that these IDEs wouldn't work anymore? The developers using Java would just switch to a friendlier platform.
please stay on topic and don't drift into some appstore conspiracies
I don't see "moderator" under your screen name, so don't start telling people what to do.
This double screws Adobe
For those that don't know this, Adobe's Flash/Flex Builder and Catalyst are based on IBM's Eclipse Framework, which in turn uses Java. So this means that in the future, Adobe would need to bundle the JVM with their Eclipse-based applications. To add insult to injury and assuming Adobe is can ship a JVM for those apps, Apple won't let these apps into the Mac App store.
As a Java developer who's been a die hard Mac user since 1986, I think i've reached the end of my rope. Apple is becoming more and more insular with each move they make. What's next? Python? Ruby? The Mac has always been seen as a content creation platform. This is one of the 1st steps in making sure that Apple becomes the SGI of our time.
For those that don't know this, Adobe's Flash/Flex Builder and Catalyst are based on IBM's Eclipse Framework, which in turn uses Java. So this means that in the future, Adobe would need to bundle the JVM with their Eclipse-based applications. To add insult to injury and assuming Adobe is can ship a JVM for those apps, Apple won't let these apps into the Mac App store.
As a Java developer who's been a die hard Mac user since 1986, I think i've reached the end of my rope. Apple is becoming more and more insular with each move they make. What's next? Python? Ruby? The Mac has always been seen as a content creation platform. This is one of the 1st steps in making sure that Apple becomes the SGI of our time.
Wait, they're dropping Quicktime too ?
How is that different from what we have today ? Apps ship with their own updaters. Apps that aren't using the Mac App store will continue to ship with their own updaters. Status quo.
Hardly a reason to ship out of date and broken Java.
Well maybe I misunderstand things then. I thought the App updates went through the Software update venue that is built into Leopard and that they would now be pushed out of that. So if Apps really were doing that on their own then nothing should change. In other words I thought the Mac store was meant to replace Software updates. I guess what you mean though is that when you run an app it auto-checks for updates. That's going to have to do, but it was nice having the system auto-update Apps that are not in use.
Oracle produce their flagship product for Windows, Linux and several brands of Unix. OS X isn't one of the brands of Unix that Oracle support with their database server.
The target market for Oracle (the database) is pretty much the same as the target market for Java (i.e. large enterprise systems). Apple have pretty much no penetration in that space so Oracle not developing Java for OS X would lose them nowhere near 10% of their target market (I'd be surprised if it was 1%). As they clearly don't care about OS X enough to put Oracle DB on it, will they care enough about OS X to put Java on it?
Yes, they would hurt developers who currently use OS X for Java development, but those developers aren't going to stop developing for Java if Java isn't available on OS X, they're going to stop using OS X...
Huge as a percentage of servers, but still smaller then the total number of machines running Java.
Take all of the Linux machines (both server and desktop) and compare that to the OSX market share.
I find it impossible to believe that Oracle wouldn't produce a JRE for OSX.
Software updates only updates Apple provide software. It does not update your Firefox, your Eclipse, your Chrome, your Adobe CS5 stuff, etc..
Again, the Mac App Store aims to add 3rd party app updating to Mac, with certain restrictions. However, the current update mecanisms apps use will still work.
Seriously, people need to relax and stop jumping to conclusions.
Most people complaining about this seem to have no clue about what this means. Let me give you a hint: nothing!
Do you know why Apple has their own version of Java to begin with? Many years ago they tried Java as an alternative to ObjC for Cocoa. Java was fully integrated. This was cancelled around 10.4. Since then, there is really no point in them making their own JVM.
Did you know that Microsoft had their own Java runtime ten years ago? It was even further behind than Apple's is today. They stopped shipping it with Windows. Did that end Java on Windows? No. It actually improved the situation, because developer's didn't have to keep old versions and bugs in mind.
This is good for everyone!
Developers (and I am one) should be happy about this. Now OS X will become a regular first-class citizen of Java. The Java community can now distribute current and equal versions.
Apple slims down their OS and focuses on their own API.
And users won't even notice as long as developers do their job right.
Eclipse happens to use SWT. That's a GUI framework developed by IBM that connects directly to native Cocoa. Apple has done zero work on "hooking this into the native UI". If anything, Eclipse proves that any other company can do just a good (and bad!) job at making a Java GUI for OSX.
Apple absolutely isn't killing Java. They're just no longer contributing to it. And why would they? They contribute nothing special, and they gain nothing, either.
Most people complaining about this seem to have no clue about what this means. Let me give you a hint: nothing!
Do you know why Apple has their own version of Java to begin with? Many years ago they tried Java as an alternative to ObjC for Cocoa. Java was fully integrated. This was cancelled around 10.4. Since then, there is really no point in them making their own JVM.
Did you know that Microsoft had their own Java runtime ten years ago? It was even further behind than Apple's is today. They stopped shipping it with Windows. Did that end Java on Windows? No. It actually improved the situation, because developer's didn't have to keep old versions and bugs in mind.
This is good for everyone!
Developers (and I am one) should be happy about this. Now OS X will become a regular first-class citizen of Java. The Java community can now distribute current and equal versions.
Apple slims down their OS and focuses on their own API.
And users won't even notice as long as developers do their job right.
[/QUOTE]
Eclipse happens to use SWT. That's a GUI framework developed by IBM that connects directly to native Cocoa. Apple has done zero work on "hooking this into the native UI". If anything, Eclipse proves that any other company can do just a good (and bad!) job at making a Java GUI for OSX.
Apple absolutely isn't killing Java. They're just no longer contributing to it. And why would they? They contribute nothing special, and they gain nothing, either.
Who cares? I care, because it's how I pay my mortgage.
Niche technology? If you consider the enterprise world a niche market, then I guess.
Where should I move on to? Windows? Linux?
I don't for a second think Java is going to disappear on the Mac. But this kind of ignorance about what Java is amazes me.
I am hoping Apple talk with Oracle before they made this announcement. It could be Apple had some agreement in place with Sun before hand on why Apple was handling it since Apple is a known control freak.
I hope Apple does the same thing Microsoft does regarding updates for Java. Microsoft keeps updates on its own update servers that will send out updates. I know on my windows 7 and XP if the Java update falls to far behind I get an update alert threw windows update and it installs threw that.
Mind you the one on Microsoft servers are generally are slightly out dated but are current enough to make sure that Java can reach out to Oracle and grab updates from them.
It has been a while since I did a fresh install with windows but I know on XP it came with some Java on it or it would grab Java when it first connected to Windows Update and then from there get the rest from Oracle.
FUD? Yes, there's FUD going around, but it started with Apple's own documentation. Usually, you accuse competitors of spreading it, but I guess Apple is bringing more things in house these days.
My boss isn't too interested in "likely" and "probably" unless it comes to making contingency plans. New Mac purchases at my branch will be on hold until it's fact.
Really? I never knew that. Seems kind of stupid not to have had them included. I guess there will be some good to the Mac Store after all.
when LinkedIn wasn't as popular as it is now, i read up on how they treat employees and they are a huge Mac user. each new developer gets a MacBook Pro and a Mac Pro. the website is developed in Java.
I guess apple thinks they will pick up the grandma business to offset the loss to business customers
I guess apple thinks they will pick up the grandma business to offset the loss to business customers
Adobe Flash Builder and Adobe Catalyst are Eclipse based applications that use Java under the hood. So if you care about those applications, then this is an issue for you.
Oh well, as a Java developer I'll just have to go back to Windows or Linux machines. Me and everyone else in the company.
I think Apple underestimates the number of software engineering professionals that use their systems because the OS is good and stays out of their way whilst they work.
Also, no Minecraft on the Apple App Store.
I think Apple underestimates the number of software engineering professionals that use their systems because the OS is good and stays out of their way whilst they work.
Also, no Minecraft on the Apple App Store.