Apple Discontinuing Java Installation Packages for Mac OS X?

[WestonHarvey1]

If it's so easy, why isn't it done more often? I use a few Java apps on OS X. They get the job done, but it ain't always pretty and it's never fast (I know, I know, Java isn't slow. But for some reason Java apps are.)

Java absolutely is slow on the client side. And I'm a Java fanboy. Trade off is portability.

Besides the extra layer of abstraction between the code and the OS widgets, you've got a heavy VM running in the background, sucking up a huge amount of heap space, even for the tiniest little application.

You don't want to write things like IM clients in it. Not when Adium will run for weeks under 50MB.

 

[spazzcat]

So if you need java, go to java.com and download it. I don't see what the big deal is???

 

[mdriftmeyer]

Oracle will manage it

It is simple. Oracle's connection with Apple is solid. They will manage it now that they own it.

 

[pmjoe]

If it's so easy, why isn't it done more often? I use a few Java apps on OS X. They get the job done, but it ain't always pretty and it's never fast (I know, I know, Java isn't slow. But for some reason Java apps are.)

But if it's done right, you'd never know it was written in Java without poking around in the .app package.

 

[WestonHarvey1]

In regards to your bug challenge... I'm looking at the "Known and Resolved Issues" in the developer documentation for this Java release and I'm seeing quite a few bugs listed. They're not in the Java itself for the most part, but the AWT. So I stand by the fact that there were and most likely are definitely issues with Apple's implementation of Java.

There's certainly bugs. Lots of them, like any other platform. The important thing though is that in the developer's experience, how many of these are showstoppers - or even noticed - either on the developer's workstation, or in production server deployments. And in reality, it's really rare.

 

[Stella]

So if you need java, go to java.com and download it. I don't see what the big deal is???

Oracle don't create an Apple VM (at the moment ), only Apple. If Apple removes Java from future OSX versions then there is no Java platform for Apple, which impacts a small but still significant OSX user base.

 

[WestonHarvey1]

So if you need java, go to java.com and download it. I don't see what the big deal is???

You can't. That's what the big deal is.

 

[clochard42]

Java and enterprise

Java != flash. Flash is used primarily on end-user web sites. Java is the dominant language used for enterprise applications. If there is no Java on OS X, the Mac will lose both the software engineers that develop the software and the end-users that use the software.

Apple thinks they can force people to change their websites to not use Flash, and they're probably right. However, there are billions of dollars spent that revolve around Java in the enterprise. Apple does not have the power to make them convert and and decision makers will just make the call to migrate back to Windows 7, Ubuntu, or something else.

I don't expect people who haven't spent their entire career in the software engineering field to understand how significant this is- undoubtedly one might think that since they have no Java applications installed on their laptop that this is a non-issue. It isn't. Consumer-based software is only a tiny fraction of all the software written, even though it is usually all the consumer ever sees. We're not just talking small shops that have converted to Macs, either. Many folks involved with Java at places like Google also use Apple hardware.

Couldn't agree more. I hope that Sun/Oracle will take over and release Java for Mac as they do for Windows as well.

 

[plinden]

If it's so easy, why isn't it done more often? I use a few Java apps on OS X. They get the job done, but it ain't always pretty and it's never fast (I know, I know, Java isn't slow. But for some reason Java apps are.)

Because most Java apps are written on Windows machines and few of the developers know what to do to make it look good on OS X (http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/JavaLP/JavaToMac/)

Having said that, I'm a Java developer using OS X (as are what seems to be about 80% of my coworkers) and I've never, ever, in nine years, written a GUI in Java. Not even when I was learning. It's all been server side. So I don't know exactly what it takes either apart from what's in that link.

I'm not panicking yet, but if Java no longer works on OS X, Apple will lose a helluva log of developers - in nine years, working for three different companies, I've seen the vast majority of my coworkers choose to develop using OS X if given the choice.

 

[roadbloc]

Time to run away from anything Apple. 1984 is not too far away

Yeah, yeah, save us the historyisrepeatingitself special. Oracle have ditched OpenOffice and will probably ditch VirtualBox. Apple do right to let Oracle decide on which platforms Java goes on. That's if Apple even have a choice.

Who even uses Java apps? I've used about two in my entire life. I use none now.

 

[spazzcat]

Oracle don't create an Apple VM (at the moment ), only Apple. If Apple removes Java from future OSX versions then there is no Java platform for Apple, which impacts a small but still significant OSX user base.

Did not realize there was only an Apple VM. That is a bit of fail on Sun, as Apple could pull their VM at anytime. I guess we will have to see if Oracle reponds....

 

[zacman]

Java is like Flash and sucks. That's why Android supports it.

If you want to develop for the Mac use the Apple SDK and no cross platforming ****! If you don't then you won't be allowed to sell your crappy software through the AppStore! Say good bye you all crappy cross platform developers. Thumbs up!

 

[WestonHarvey1]

Who even uses Java apps? I've used about two in my entire life. I use none now.

Client side apps, maybe. But don't downplay its significance. If you use the World Wide Web, a very large portion of what you are doing is being done by Java.

 

[pmjoe]

Because most Java apps are written on Windows machines and few of the developers know what to do to make it look good on OS X (http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/JavaLP/JavaToMac/)

Having said that, I'm a Java developer using OS X (as are what seems to be about 80% of my coworkers) and I've never, ever, in nine years, written a GUI in Java. Not even when I was learning. It's all been server side. So I don't know exactly what it takes either apart from what's in that link.

And that article is actually quite old (2003). Apple and other sites have much better documentation, and even as recently as this latest Java update from Apple, they were updating their APIs for integration with the OS X desktop.

For example, here's somewhat more recent article (2007) which shows how to get most all of the different OS X style buttons and window decorations.
http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#technotes/tn2007/tn2196.html

 

[Stella]

Yeah, yeah, save us the historyisrepeatingitself special. Oracle have ditched OpenOffice and will probably ditch VirtualBox. Apple do right to let Oracle decide on which platforms Java goes on. That's if Apple even have a choice.

Who even uses Java apps? I've used about two in my entire life. I use none now.

You've probably used more Java "apps" than you think. Quite a lot of websites are powered by Java - either to render the web pages ( JSP ) or to drive the server side, or both.

Like I said previously, apple discussions use Java, as one example.

( Sorry, I see someone has already stated pretty much what I've said above )

Did not realize there was only an Apple VM. That is a bit of fail on Sun, as Apple could pull their VM at anytime. I guess we will have to see if Oracle reponds....

Actually, its not a "fail" on Sun's part - Apple wanted to develop the JVM for OSX instead of Sun and Sun agreed.

 

[davidbrummy]

Java is not what is used to be

I don't think people run much Java on Mac outside of server side development.

In terms of development Java has pretty much stabilized. Java 7 has already slipped into 2011 so updates are not a big deal yet. Hopefully Oracle will step in and do updates.

The current implementation is a bit of a mess with symbolic links all over the place so hopefully they can come up with something better.

 

[WestonHarvey1]

Java is like Flash and sucks. That's why Android supports it.

If you want to develop for the Mac use the Apple SDK and no cross platforming ****! If you don't then you won't be allowed to sell your crappy software through the AppStore! Say good bye you all crappy cross platform developers. Thumbs up!

What's it like to have your level of understanding regarding technology? Does it feel good?

 

[exigentsky]

And the lock-in begins...

 

[Pentad]

I would like to point out some misconceptions:

-SUN did not develop Java because Apple licensed it in the 90s for better support. Apple was sucking and nobody wanted to do a great port of Java so Apple did. If they drop support or let it languish, nobody is going to come charging to the rescue.

-Any half-@ssed attempts at getting Java updated *if* Apple does something really stupid will only cause more problems. Professionals are not going to use some partial working JVM. If its not fully supported by Apple or Oracle, professionals will drop it instantly.

-I teach at a U and all these incoming CS students are using Macs for their programming projects. They start off in Java. If Java is no longer supported or revisions behind, they will move to Windows or Linux (most likely Windows).

Sadly, Apple should bust their butts to make Java a great platform on the Mac for development. Oracle has no real motivation to support Java on OS X.

 

[Inconsequential]

Can someone show me any java apps that run properly on OS X?

All the ones i've used are either slow, clunky or just ****.

1. Matlab - slow as, quicker in Windows.
2. PS3 media server - far from perfect.
3. A few others I've forgotten because they were ****.

 

[Clarisource]

Another Customer Lost for Apple

It's been bad enough waiting for Java version updates on Mac OS X. Now, there will be no support for Java?

Some people have said that this is now Oracle's problem. This is Apple's problem, since Apple will be losing customers due to lack of Java support. If Oracle already committed to supporting Mac OS X, then great. Otherwise, I'll be moving back to Windows.

 

[WestonHarvey1]

Having said that, I'm a Java developer using OS X (as are what seems to be about 80% of my coworkers) and I've never, ever, in nine years, written a GUI in Java. Not even when I was learning. It's all been server side. So I don't know exactly what it takes either apart from what's in that link.

It's surprisingly awful in many ways, but it's great in a lot of other ways.

Where I've seen it most are in businesses that eat their own dog food. In the financial sector it is huge. Java supplanted COBOL for new internal development in a lot of organizations. Developers who work on the back end batch processes in Java are often tasked with creating front-ends for managers, traders, and the like within the organization. It becomes a logical choice, as the developers can use the same language and quickly get something working.

Java web apps on the intranet are probably the better choice, but Java Swing apps survive on their momentum.

 

[nilk]

I am hoping two things happen:

1. Apple contributes their Java modifications for OS X to OpenJDK (open sourcing the modifications)

2. Oracle (or some other competent entity) takes over maintaining the OS X version of Java

We don't know whether either of those two things are going to happen yet. Oracle has not made a statement on whether they will pick up maintenance. It seems like they would obviously want to, but until they make a statement, we just don't know. I'm sure that Sun would have. According to Gosling, Sun was willing to do the OS X version, but Apple insisted on doing it themselves. But this is Oracle and we are already seeing them abandoning many of Sun's projects, so who knows what they are going to do.

I'm a developer who just got comfortable using OS X as my main platform over the last 2 or 3 years. 75% of the code I write is Java. So I am concerned about the outcome of this. Sure, I can move to Linux if things go south, but I am completely happy with OS X and don't want to be forced to switch. Fortunately, the main Java GUI app I use is Eclipse, which uses SWT which could probably run fine on something like Soylatte, but still there are a number of Swing apps I use. And all of the Java code I write is server-side, so something like Soylatte could work. But I'd rather have a well-supported official JDK to depend on, and not have to use X11 for Swing apps.

Those saying that Java is dying or is "niche" are absolutely clueless. Java is the most widely deployed language currently. The JVM itself is hugely popular and is being used for new languages. Java the language is being used for new libraries and products such as GWT and Android. For better or for worse, Java is here to stay for a very long time.

This is mostly a concern for developers, but that doesn't mean it's not important. The idea that people developing using Java just use Windows is just false. The company I work for develops enterprise software in Java. We are all using Macs. OS X is closer to our deployment platform (Linux / Solaris) anyway. When I go to Java User Group meetings I see more and more people are using Macs now. When I go to a dev conference such as Barcamp, *most* people are using Macs. OS X has become a development platform of choice by a huge number of people. To make it less appealing in this way would be a mistake.

Of course, we will have to see how this plays out. The end result may not be bad, it may even be an improvement, but there is uncertainty right now. Apple's been slow about Java releases (especially 1.5, but even Eclipse was slow to support that), but better to be slow than to have no one develop Java for OS X. We'll see...

 

[pgwalsh]

His logic is not that far off. VirtualBox was prior to Oracle buying them. There is no guarantee that Oracle will continue developing it - in all likelihood it will be gone soon. Oracle does not care about products that don't make money for them. They will continue putting out a JVM for Solaris/Linux/Windows because it makes them money one way or the other.

There is no money but there is significant effort involved in developing Java for the Mac and then there is uncertainty that Steve will tomorrow lock it down so that it won't be allowed or start pulling or rotting necessary OS level APIs needed for Java.

Time to run away from anything Apple. 1984 is not too far away

So was java and openoffice. They've continued developing it and it's working-out quite well. In fact there was just an article covering this issue with regards to O and LibreOffice. How oracle has a vested interest in VirtualBox and Java and puts more resources towards them. Do you really think they bought sun just to kill java on 1 platform so it's write-once, but run anywhere, almost. No..

 

[pmjoe]

-I teach at a U and all these incoming CS students are using Macs for their programming projects. They start off in Java. If Java is no longer supported or revisions behind, they will move to Windows or Linux (most likely Windows).

Universities will have to move pretty quickly here to change their recommended computer systems as freshmen will be getting acceptances soon.

Any university department that uses Java as a development platform will likely have to drop Macs as an option for next year.