That's the thing that was just deprecated. Apple said that they are no longer trying to keep up development on the Apple JVM. The Java language certainly hasn't been deprecated.
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Apple Discontinuing Java Installation Packages for Mac OS X?
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That's the thing that was just deprecated. Apple said that they are no longer trying to keep up development on the Apple JVM. The Java language certainly hasn't been deprecated.
Combined with the possibility (however unlikely) that the Mac App Store will result in one having to jailbreak one's Mac notebook/desktop, I'm going to have to quit Apple.
As a professional Java developer, this is a deal breaker for me. I don't see why Oracle/Sun will begin writing the JVM for OS X.
It was fun while it lasted.
As a professional Java developer, this is a deal breaker for me. I don't see why Oracle/Sun will begin writing the JVM for OS X.
It was fun while it lasted.
No Java applications in the App Store?
Two thumbs way down.
Java is just Flash with good breeding in a nicer dress but it is still just another clunky virtual machine hogging up resources for the sake of portability.
My take is that this whole move to Lion is a well orchestrated attack on Java. With Sun now an Oracle subsidiary and desktop use declining for tablet computers, the facility for these virtual machine paradigms are no longer viable.
Yes, I am sure the Apple store will turn down Java apps and only Mac Apps built with CoCo will be sold in the store.
Flash is on its last leg. The mobile systems wolf pack looks like it is going to take down Java now. And frankly, does Larry even care? Sun was mostly purchased for their customer list.
As people have stated Java is generally used for server side development not client based. You are coming at this from the wrong angle.
So was java and openoffice. They've continued developing it and it's working-out quite well. In fact there was just an article covering this issue with regards to O
You ignore a few things here. OpenOffice is there to keep MSFT in check - strategic thing for Oracle. Java has no relevance on the Desktop - at least not for Oracle, that's just a by-product. Virtually all Java revenue comes to Oracle from Server side of things - selling hardware, enterprise software (app servers) based on Java etc. you get the idea.
No one runs Java App Servers on Apple server platform. So where is the money for Oracle or strategic interest? It does not exist. Looking at what Apple is doing - killing all third parties - Larry is far too smart to invest in something that has no revenue or stability.
In all high-hope though if Oracle does distribute and maintain Apple Java - that would definitely be the best possible outcome for many - but I just don't see why that could happen.
Sad isn't it. It just proves more and more than Apple has to many fanboys whos opinions are worthless.
Anyone who says Java=flash opinion on anything Apple related might as well be tossed.
And neither should everyone look and act like those 3 year olds who listen to everything daddy Steve says
So kudos to you for the pic!
It's funny ... when Apple maintained it everyone was complaining they are too slow with the updates (too controlling, too whatever ...) - now that they stop providing it themselves everyone is complaining again: how can they dot this .... bla bla
I see this as a good news. Oracle will takeover the builds for MacOS and you can get the latest and greatest java at (almost) the same time as everyone else [and even if the lag behind, this still does not mean a change for anyone]
No need to bundle flash or java with MacOS - who needs it should get it from however is the 'owner' of it - makes for a slicker system for most people, you don't need it, you don't install it - you pick what you need and install it.
I see this as a good news. Oracle will takeover the builds for MacOS and you can get the latest and greatest java at (almost) the same time as everyone else [and even if the lag behind, this still does not mean a change for anyone]
No need to bundle flash or java with MacOS - who needs it should get it from however is the 'owner' of it - makes for a slicker system for most people, you don't need it, you don't install it - you pick what you need and install it.
I really hope Oracle will pickup the torch and run with it. You know the sad thing is that when I was doing the Java update last night I was thinking to myself, it really is nice to be able to get the Java updates through system updates, nice and easy, I don't have to go looking for them or have some daemon running in the background that checks for them other than the standard Apple daemon that handles checking for system updates. So much for that thought I guess.
but in a way I an't really blame Apple to much, I"m sure they would like to use those talented folks in other departments to help with regular OS development or helping with Apps etc. And they may figure that Oracle will keep maintaining Java for Mac like Oracle does for Windows/Linux.
but in a way I an't really blame Apple to much, I"m sure they would like to use those talented folks in other departments to help with regular OS development or helping with Apps etc. And they may figure that Oracle will keep maintaining Java for Mac like Oracle does for Windows/Linux.
1. WebObjects is even less updated and modernized than Apple's Java port. Apple hasn't released anything since 2008. It has been over 2 years since they released any updates. It is stuck. It got no upgrade with the Snow Leopard upgrade. Largely what is there now is what is there when Leopard shipped with some limited incremental updates that most likely originated as bug reports.
2. WebObjects was at one time portable. If Apple ports WebObjects to Linux or Solaris (i.e., the OS the other significant portions of their back-end store run on ) then still can run the iTunes store. Just not no Mac OS X.
You are assuming that Mac OS X is a requirement to run the iTunes store. It really isn't.
If Apple spent the last 2 years porting WebObjects to Linux or Solaris the don't have to make any arrangements for Oracle to port anything.
The UI elements of the WebObjects apps.... port those so they use HTML5/Javascript. It would be hard to believe that Apple would pay any heed to the browser/client side aspect of WebObjects leveraging any Java at all. In other words, they would turn WebObjects leveraging of Java into purely a server side implementation issue. At that point..... does it really make sense to only target Mac OS X as the primary development/deployment OS for WebObjects ?
3. Apple is soooooo committed to the server market.
a. dumped XServer RAID.
b. XServe sits there languishing even after the extended delay in getting updated Mac Pro out.
c. The Lion sneak peak is about 100% filled with userlevel programs, an Appstore , and making the user experience look more like an iPad. If there is where 98+% of the Lion focus is how likely is it going to make a great foundation for an updated Mac OS X Server ?
All that "backend" , "faceless" applications and infrastructure... Apple is spending time on that ? [ perhaps that is too boring stuff for a Jobs run circus show ... but there are lots of indications that Apple is drifting away with anything that isn't bright and shiny. ]
4. Herds more developers into using Mac OS X only APIs and tools.
[ Remember the "can't use any other language but ours" move this Spring? ]
Right. The can switch to a mode where only their use of WebObjects (on Linux or Solaris ... their choice) is all they will care about and anyone else who was using Java for something else can hit the road.
If Apple was showing concern for others and good stewardship they would have arranged to make an joint announcement with Oracle that they would be taking over Mac OS X Java work in the future. Not some backhanded "oh by the way this is now a dead end street" opaque announcement.
Rewritting history? Safari started before IE stopped. Sure Mac IE was lagging a bit behind Windows IE but that is different than canceled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Safari#History_and_development
Apple and Microsoft had an agreement to make IE for Mac. At end of 5 year contract Apple decided to take control. ( cruft like ActiveX and gross proprietary cruft that Micrsoft was throwing in at that point certainly helped to make that prudent move. )
Cough... like Firefox and Mozilla had nothing to do with that decline in market share.
If Apple wants Oracle to support Mac OS X then they should have sat down with Oracle long ago and come up with a transition plan. There is zero evidence that they did this. If Apple "steve'd" the java port and didn't give Oracle/Sun a long enough head's up then this isn't going to fly.
What will end up happening is that the OpenJDK that using XWindows will be the "port". That is the least expensive thing for Oracle to do. Anyone who wants some backend, nonGUI apps (e.g., Apple if haven't finished porting WebObjects to a sever OS with a better long term future ) can use it.
Time to run away from anything Apple. 1984 is not too far away
Cool story bro.
Java is projected as a technology that's coded once deployed everywhere. Not having support for Mac OSX ruins that marketable image. So now its just code once, deploy on 90%< of the market. Which gives Novell and Mono a major chance to step in and go hey, we support all platforms equally. Code using our technology.
Oracle may be sorting out what to do with all the wasted resources sun accumulated over arguably frivolous projects, but they're not stupid.
Apple should take a page out of Microsoft book here. Do keep doing Java updates threw system updates but that is mainly to keep people at least semi upto day. Level Java call home every now and then to check for an update on its own.
If you look at Microsoft window up dates a lot of common non Microsoft software will have updates there. Java is one of them. Now those updates are normally slightly outdated but close enough to things fixed.
So Steve gave a guarantee to Larry that if he invests resources in Java for OSX (something Steve himself is not doing - on the contrary, he is actively preventing Java apps from the Mac App Store calling it "deprecated") he would let Oracle distribute it for the foreseeable future? That would be hard to lie about even for Steve on the background of App store exclusion and slow OSX iOS merger that is inevitable.
Or Larry has begun his philanthropy tad too early - to spend money on something on moral ground even though it may end up being 'deprecated' or banned and even when no one would pay him for Apple Java as no one runs servers on OSX?
WTF are you talking about? The JVM was clunky many many years ago in initially releases, these days it's pretty much negligible unless you're doing something that requires you to work right on the metal.
Java is not even close to dead, it's one of the most widely used languages around, and it has absolutely nothing to do with flash.
Moreover there are many apps written in java that won't be ported to something else. They range from office and statistics packages to scientific modeling to games and general consumer apps. This is a loss for anyone who uses osx for their desktop and from what comments I've seen recently in my areas of work could push a lot of people like me to go back to using linux as their primary OS on their desktops. Debian FTW for me if Java support for OSX isn't picked up by someone else.
All I can gather from your post is that you've never been involved in any way, shape, or form with any form of software development.
So you're saying that Oracle should spend millions of dollars to try and uphold the illusion that everything runs Java? Java is primarily a server side environment. Everybody who matters know that. That is, Oracle knows that and Java shops know that. Granted, most people in this thread don't know that but let's be honest; they don't really know much about anything IT related.
The market that really matters is the server market and I doubt OS X has even a 1% market share there.
Oracle has clearly shown a will to cut any project that isn't profitable regardless of their image. I don't see any profits for Oracle, directly or indirectly, from supporting OS X. In addition, Jobs is in a position to make it really hard for Oracle to support the platform, just as he's doing with Adobe on iOS.
I'm hopeful that Oracle would see the point in supporting OS X, but I don't really see a good argument.
Oracle and IBM agreed that OpenJDK is the future of Java. So yes complete demise is exaggerated. However, that doesn't exactly resolve the issue.
Oracle has little motivation in switching the GUI bindings from X11 to Cocoa. I doubt Apple is going to contribute any of their code. Faced with doing custom code for a very limited market that produces no revenue for Oracle and porting a pure "back end" oriented JDK (that has some potential to make money ... maybe someone will buy a app server) Oracle will always go with the money.
If it doesn't make Oracle money somehow from at least several of their enterprise customers ... they aren't going to do it. [ virtual box is in the same boat over next couple of years. As long as Apple remains somewhat hostile to virtualization it will disappear unless a substantive number of folks start paying for support. ]
Java as tool to build GUI apps or applets can see a problem. The only major Oracle software that produces major money and is hooked to GUI Java on the Mac is EBiz Suite's Jinitator. JDeveloper and SQLDeveloper aren't big money for Oracle and have other more widely adopted platforms if pressed.
The huge negative for Oracle and Mac OS X is that Apple keeps taking steps to kill off the utility of Mac OS X Server. No enterprise runtimes, no big incentive to port.
P.S. X11 is another project I can see Apple killing too if they going "whole hog" on the "screw Servers ... we are a eye candy, touchy feeling software company" track. If the money for that port pops up on some budget cutter's radar ... poof. X11 support was another one of those "openess" to other frameworks gestures that Apple made when their market share was heading toward 1%. Now that it has stabilized around 4-5% it appears the intolerance is creeping back in.
Apple's Final Cut Server Client requires Java
Apple actually sells a Mac desktop Java app! The Final Cut Server Client is written in Java, and runs on Mac and Windows:
http://www.apple.com/finalcutserver/specs/
Maybe they're busy rewriting it in Cocoa and .net...
Apple actually sells a Mac desktop Java app! The Final Cut Server Client is written in Java, and runs on Mac and Windows:
http://www.apple.com/finalcutserver/specs/
Maybe they're busy rewriting it in Cocoa and .net...
I think you'll find Java is used a lot more than you think. There's a big difference between a Java application and a Java backend... you notice one, you don't notice the other.
This is not good news in the long run. If the Mac App Store is as big a hit as the iPhone App Store, the incentive to use and support other languages on Macs will be reduced, and those who use them outside of the Mac App Store will suffer the most as membership and investment in their community shrinks.
Bad move! The people that took OSX back to my community was the java programmers. It was them that showed that OSX was useful. And they are the ones showing the way, they where the first that bought iphones. They were the first that used android. If oracle and apple cant get it to work im pretty dam sure that they will easily go back to microsoft and start with C#. They will fore sure not go objective-C and become apple droids. And the pack will follow...
Even if that were completely true, and it's not (there's a lot of client side Java, even if there's more server-side), *developers* need somewhere to, you know, develop. A lot of devs use OSX on their desk. If Apple kills Java and someone else doesn't pick up the slack Apple will lose all those machines to someone else. Now Apple may not care, they may decide they are done courting those devs, and that's fine, but don't pretend that even if Java were *entirely* a server-side language and even if Apple suddenly stopped making a server OS tomorrow this wouldn't be a problem.
Can someone show me any java apps that run properly on OS X?
All the ones i've used are either slow, clunky or just ****.
1. Matlab - slow as, quicker in Windows.
2. PS3 media server - far from perfect.
3. A few others I've forgotten because they were ****.
Eclipse, which is arguably one of the best development environments available and written in Java. (and to avoid any holy wars about dev environments, there are plenty of other excellent dev tools built in Java, but Eclipse happens to be my personal favourite
) The point here isn't whether the average user needs java apps on their desktop, it's about professional software developers who develop high end enterprise level systems that run (mainly) on Linux. OS X is a brilliant platform for developing java apps at the moment (Eclipse on my Mac runs significantly faster than on Windows).
If java isn't available on OS X (which is a big if, but the crux of this thread) then those developers are going to move to either Windows or Linux
Also, don't forget that many PHP developers also use Eclipse so no Java means they move too
The point I'm trying to make is why would should Oracle care? I think Apple should care but clearly they don't.