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Java is like Flash and sucks. That's why Android supports it.

If you want to develop for the Mac use the Apple SDK and no cross platforming ****! If you don't then you won't be allowed to sell your crappy software through the AppStore! Say good bye you all crappy cross platform developers. Thumbs up! :apple:

Wow, that's quite a misconception you've got going there: Did you do any research at all before coming up with that? If you had you'd know, for example, that large parts of Apple's website and infrastructure are Java based. You'd also know that the debate has pretty much nothing to do with the AppStore or cross platform client side apps.
 
This is not what computers should be:
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I believe this is what Apple is going for. They've been aiming for this since the first Macintosh. They want your computer to be like your TV or refrigerator or car. And Apple as a company is focusing on what it wants to support and what it thinks will benefit it in the future. It doesn't see Flash and, now, Java in that future. If you don't like what the company is doing, speak with your wallet and they'll listen.
 
Or Larry has begun his philanthropy tad too early - to spend money on something on moral ground even though it may end up being 'deprecated' or banned and even when no one would pay him for Apple Java as no one runs servers on OSX?
Banned? That's a pretty large leap to a conclusion...
 
One could easily label me a fanboy and I wouldn't be overly upset. However, the App Store scares me a bit as a user. If the "normal" way of getting stuff still applies, then fine...

Java going away is another nail, though I'm hoping they are just relinquishing their own releases and giving it back to Oracle to manage.
 
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I find myself getting a little more pissed at apple every day.
 
I think the lesson to take away from this is:

Don't make any kind of significant long time investment in Apple on an enterprise level. That's not exactly news, though, and Oracle may feel that it's too risky to use resources on a platform where no guarantees are made down the line and where there's no case for profit in the short term. Sure, Apple might say that they're firmly committed to supporting X11 but one would be a fool to believe them.
 
I'm a developer and user of Java on OSX. I am very pleased with its performance and we use Eclipse in our mac-using organization for our entire team. We've developed custom Mac-specific Java applications and it is a relationship ending move if Apple no longer has a functioning VM.

I moved our entire org to Mac several years ago and I'll move it back off again.

**** you, Apple, for everything closed and awful you are currently doing to this once great Unix platform. You'll be losing a lot of developer customers if this really happens and sticks. I feel very strongly as if OSX is about to lose to the iPhone and if I stick with Mac for the next few years I'll be using one application at a time with huge icons designed for infants, Terminal.app will be 'deprecated', X11 will be gone, and I will have the 'option' of buying only Apple-branded peripherals.

I am honestly horrified.
 
Can someone show me any java apps that run properly on OS X?

Apart from all the IDEs (Eclipse, Netbeans etc.) here is one that non-developers have probably used - Vuze (Azureus) - http://azureus.sourceforge.net/.

But anyway for me and many others it is the ability to use OS X as a development platform that really counts - Java is still the most popular language that people get paid to write http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html.

I will try to be optimistic and hope that Oracle will step up and do a better job of supporting a Java VM on OS X than Apple (and if they do it will be because of the developers) - however Oracle's stewardship of Sun's IP so far has not impressed....
 
Everybody should calm down a bit and wait until we know for sure that this isn’t a move to push off the Java responsibility to Oracle instead of Apple. This would be good news since Oracle/Sun is much faster at fixing java issues than Apple.

"Push" is bad. If this is not a coordinated effort it will go badly for Mac users. Apple can't just show up at Oracle's doorstep and say "We decided to punt this entirely back into your hands. By the way we just put Mac Java into deprecated mode. Have a nice day. "

Sure Oracle might pick up a port. The transition though will be extremely rocky though. If Apple is out to scare folks off of Java with FUD then this is bad for users.

If Apple has been trying to work with Oracle on a transition and they both screwed up the annoucement of this transition then fine. Maybe taking ownership is caught up in some internal Oracle war. Entirely belivable.
However, as someone said. Ellison passing up an opportunity to crow about how Oracle is going get Java ported to Mac right ... way better than Sun even managed to accomplish .... I also don't see him passing that up.


The recent IBM / Oracle announcement

http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/176988


Not assuming ill of either side I suspect that Oracle might have been hoping Apple would jump into the the OpenJDK project since IBM wanted to go that way anyway. I suspect that Apple doesn't want to go the open source route with their modifications and supporting X11 bindings just isn't their style.


It would have been nice if Apple announced deprecated and where going to assign some folks to OpenJDK. Or even just let folks know they were working on some kind of handoff. Instead get the typical obtuse "notification from the Kremlin" that Java is "out of favor" with the Politburo.



The less third-party frameworks (Flash/Java) that Apple has to maintain is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Oh you mean like Unix/Posix ?? ;) Or the variety of OpenSource components that add functionality to Mac OS X (client and server).
Is supporting a JRE hugely different (in other than scope) than supporting the standard c/c++ libraries ?


Apple could transition to just making relatively much smaller contributions to OpenJDK. I doubt they would because it is covered in GPL and Apple doesn't like GPL. I don't think it is just 3rd party frameworks. It is also controlling their mods.


Apple is starting to get a lot of influence on the market that those companies can not ignore Apple anymore like they did in the past.

Apple has a disproportionate share of the hype. Not necessarily the influence ( Mac OS X is still 4-6% of market. iOS doesn't really help if 3rd parties are banned. ) . Apple is "hot" but is so far as Apple doesn't open up opportunities for them to make money other established players aren't going to go along once the "shine" wears off. If Apple doesn't present a way for Oracle to make money, they aren't going to do it.
 
I think the lesson to take away from this is:

Don't make any kind of significant long time investment in Apple on an enterprise level. That's not exactly news, though, and Oracle may feel that it's too risky to use resources on a platform where no guarantees are made down the line and where there's case for profit in the short term. Sure, Apple might say that they're firmly committed to supporting X11 but one would be a fool to believe them.

Now we're trotting out X11?
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"Push" is bad. If this is not a coordinated effort it will go badly for Mac users. Apple can't just show up at Oracle's doorstep and say "We decided to punt this entirely back into your hands. By the way we just put Mac Java into deprecated mode. Have a nice day. "
I'd bet money we'll eventually figure out that Oracle was the driver on this. :cool:
 
I cannot believe Apple is pulling this crap. I have owned Macs since 1984, but I will not buy a Mac again if it cannot run Java well, as I do much of my development in Java for server systems. Macs have been my dev platform of choice for the past several years. Obviously that will change unless there is more to the story here, like Oracle/Sun will be distributing Java for Macs.

Even if there is more to the story, why would Apple come out with this news without telling us the long term plan?

**** you Apple! You are going to lose a long, long, long term customer if you continue with this plan...
 
Now we're trotting out X11?
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Why not? What could Apple possibly gain from keeping X11 support around? What assurances do Oracle have that Apple will look favourably upon any kind of outside effort to support GUIs made in Java?
 
Developers might like Java but the experience for users sucks. Esp in Windows when I have to use Java apps my machine gets slow & clunky. Sucks for ya'll but this is good news for users. If you just insist on developing for Java just accept you'lll have fewer customers.

Keep in mind, most Java apps that desktop users use, they are probably not aware of. This is because they are web apps.
 
Now we're trotting out X11?
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I'm not sure what that comment is supposed to mean, but there are those people out there who don't play farmville with their computers. I work with research scientists, and yes, there are many scientific programs that are written using X11, because they were originally developed on Unix or Linux. Having X11 means it's often as simple as a recompile to get it running on the Mac. That makes the Mac an attractive computer for scientists.

Same with Java. If you're writing a client app for scientists, who generally are more concerned with something working than being pretty, Java lets you write it once and deploy it on all three major platforms: windows, mac, unix/linux. There are a number of these programs.

Those things go away and Apple's going to lose sales to research markets. Your average biologist isn't going to be able to write a Cocoa UI (or care to do it, or spend the money to hire someone). He or she will just end up purchasing a PC, and PCs for all the research staff.

Remember, there are people who use their computer for something other than farmville.
 
this could be a good thing ...

... if Oracle doesn't screw it up. When Java 1.6 came out, a lot of people were complaining to Sun that they didn't release a version for OSX. Sun responded saying they wanted to, would be happy to, but Apple said they were going to do it. Meanwhile, Apple took forever to get a viable 1.6 JVM out the door.

This could be a move of Apple turning it back over to Sun/Oracle. If Oracle is willing to support Java like Sun was, then we could see faster turn arounds of new Java implementations running on OSX than we did when Apple was doing it.

Another point, I don't think Apple would blatantly try to kill Java on it's platform. After all, Apple is trying to push into the corporate enterprise market where Java is HUGE. To not have a java solution, would be pretty much to kill their enterprise push. My guess is, you will start to see Oracle release implementations for OSX. If that doesn't happen, I guess I'll switch back to Linux.
 
I'd be money we'll eventually figure out that Oracle was the driver on this. :cool:

No, they both are probably acting badly.

Sure, I wouldn't be surprised in Oracle wanted a bigger licensing check every year , but at the same time wanted Apple to funnel resources into OpenJDK. I'm also quite sure that Larry would tell Steve that their Java implementation sucked if he thought as much. I also would not be surprised if Oracle is even less happy about being permanently barred from being on iOS than Sun was.

Apple has also been looking for a face saving exit. "Oracle made me do it" is way too convenient an out for them to pass up. Apple doesn't want JavaFX to have any possibility of having any traction ( Oracle might turn that effort around and make it effective. ) Regardless they wouldn't want Oracle bugging them to make JavaFX better on Mac OS X. I suspect Apple is OK with perhaps nuking all the IDE developers use Macs for work. If not committed to the "one, true IDE to unite them all" then throw them under the bus. Maybe the bus won't run them over too bad and they will survive.


The crapping handoff is because both are too busy strutting to actually give a damn about customers.
 
Why not? What could Apple possibly gain from keeping X11 support around? What assurances do Oracle have that Apple will look favourably upon any kind of outside effort to support GUIs made in Java?
What possible benefit would the users have if they did keep it around? Haven't even the freebie msoffice clones evolved away from that sort of thing? I've been an IT guy for, well, forever, and I can't remember the last time I needed X11 on a client computer...
 
No Java applications in the App Store? :eek:

Two thumbs way down.

I personally love this. I also don't want any Adobe AIR apps in the store. If it isn't written in Obj-C and compiled with Xcode, I don't want it. This includes X11 apps like GIMP too.
 
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Of all the things announced this week this sucks the most. Not because Java is fast or well integrayed into the Mac, it is not, but rather it opened up a whole world of apps on the Mac.

Things like Eclipse that ran rather well on the Mac. But understand Eclipse was just a bigger example, many fine Java apps ran great on the Mac.

I realize Java is a bit of a dead language, at least from the outside looking in it is. I'm sure developers in it up to their elbows have a different opinion, but I don't see growth in Java. More so it is in many ways a bad choice these days for Mac development. I also have to think that the development of MacRuby has something to do with this. With the combo of Objective C and MacRuby Apple can cover a lot of developer needs.

In the end though I still see this as a mistake. If for nothing else the ability to run legacy apps is very important. Hopefully they have alternative plans to assure Java support.
 
I'm not sure what that comment is supposed to mean, but there are those people out there who don't play farmville with their computers. I work with research scientists, and yes, there are many scientific programs that are written using X11, because they were originally developed on Unix or Linux. Having X11 means it's often as simple as a recompile to get it running on the Mac. That makes the Mac an attractive computer for scientists.

Same with Java. If you're writing a client app for scientists, who generally are more concerned with something working than being pretty, Java lets you write it once and deploy it on all three major platforms: windows, mac, unix/linux. There are a number of these programs.

Remember, there are people who use their computer for something other than farmville.
So those are the only choices? What a dichotomy! We're all either research scientists with sh**ty UI apps or we play Farmville!!!

Really?
 
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