They do. Apple is not competing with Dell any more than Acura competes with Scion.
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Apple Discounts Cinema Displays
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They do. Apple is not competing with Dell any more than Acura competes with Scion.
Give it a rest, dude!
Give it a rest, YoYo. It is abundantly clear to everyone but you how little you know about this subject. You're just stubbornly defending your point of view, which is a 24-karat drag.
Give it a rest, YoYo. It is abundantly clear to everyone but you how little you know about this subject. You're just stubbornly defending your point of view, which is a 24-karat drag.
I'm going to get two of them
I've always prefered two side by side monitors over one large one and now the price is low enough (for me) for side by side 20-inch monitors.
George
I've always prefered two side by side monitors over one large one and now the price is low enough (for me) for side by side 20-inch monitors.
George
If Dells are so inferior then perhaps Apple should consider proving it with MORE flexibility, MORE inputs, MORE contrast, MORE natural color and even backlighting through LEDs, FASTER response times, and all the other things they could include to improve their displays over the competition. I can't recall a single Scion that is MORE appealing than an Acura and if there were, there would be a problem. This defense that you are applying for the Apple is for such a small number of users that it is clear you have no REAL defense for Apple not upgrading their monitors significantly in the last three years. Believe it or not, most people here would like their Apple monitors to have more of the Dells features and if they aren't going to offer them, then they shouldn't charge MORE.
It's like what they did with the G4 Powerbook. That thing was hideously out of date, yet until the new model was released Apple still chose to charge $2500 for it. And believe it or not, there were people like dante out there saying they were worth every penny, even a bargain. Well, they weren't! Apple just chose to charge too much for them, just like what is happening here. Sure, there are people out there that needed OSX so bad that they would defend Apple for this, but they were wrong. Apple was overcharging their customers, just like they are now.
It's like what they did with the G4 Powerbook. That thing was hideously out of date, yet until the new model was released Apple still chose to charge $2500 for it. And believe it or not, there were people like dante out there saying they were worth every penny, even a bargain. Well, they weren't! Apple just chose to charge too much for them, just like what is happening here. Sure, there are people out there that needed OSX so bad that they would defend Apple for this, but they were wrong. Apple was overcharging their customers, just like they are now.
Uh, it's NOT about features, it's about the RESULTS that the monitor can deliver you.
Why have all the fancy bells and whistles when you prefer something that works perfectly from out the box?
Now That IS A Great Question
Now that is a GREAT Question!
I myself own an HP DesignJet 130, DYE Based High Gamut Printer -- it is my Match Proofing Device and I also own a Colorspan Displaymaker XII -- I have found that my ACD get's very close to the entire gamut of these printers but yes in some areas falls short.
Here is a link to an article that reviews the color gamut capabilities of high end monitors:
http://www.lb-ag.ch/news/digital/Quato/Intelliproof/seyboldreport.pdf
You can see that the ACD 23 hits about 80% of this gamut. The ACD 30 has the same gamut. Ignore what this article says about screen controls as it is just wrong.
I do think Apple will offer a high gamut monitor in the coming months -- I just hope they continue to do it right unlike Dell's cheapo consumer solution -- if they don't I'll be buying another OLD ACD 30inch for my studio.
Good questions.
Now that is a GREAT Question!
I myself own an HP DesignJet 130, DYE Based High Gamut Printer -- it is my Match Proofing Device and I also own a Colorspan Displaymaker XII -- I have found that my ACD get's very close to the entire gamut of these printers but yes in some areas falls short.
Here is a link to an article that reviews the color gamut capabilities of high end monitors:
http://www.lb-ag.ch/news/digital/Quato/Intelliproof/seyboldreport.pdf
You can see that the ACD 23 hits about 80% of this gamut. The ACD 30 has the same gamut. Ignore what this article says about screen controls as it is just wrong.
I do think Apple will offer a high gamut monitor in the coming months -- I just hope they continue to do it right unlike Dell's cheapo consumer solution -- if they don't I'll be buying another OLD ACD 30inch for my studio.
Good questions.
You Should Have Stood Down!
They don't "Charge More" -- You get more with an Apple Monitor. Period. Better profiles, more finely tuned color range, etc.
Who do you think Adobe sells the Creative Suite to on the Mac Side?
Mom's in the kitchen?
Who do you think Final Cut Pro is sold to? Dad in the Garage.
Please! You know not what you speak.
I will not respond to anymore of your posts. Obviously you need to buy el cheapo monitors 'cause you spend all your time spouting trash as opposed to earning cash.
I am going to use my superior tech to service my clients who pay me and who benefit from my knowledge, and my ACD 30" -- My dell is great for the pallets however.
Stand Down.
They don't "Charge More" -- You get more with an Apple Monitor. Period. Better profiles, more finely tuned color range, etc.
Who do you think Adobe sells the Creative Suite to on the Mac Side?
Mom's in the kitchen?
Who do you think Final Cut Pro is sold to? Dad in the Garage.
Please! You know not what you speak.
I will not respond to anymore of your posts. Obviously you need to buy el cheapo monitors 'cause you spend all your time spouting trash as opposed to earning cash.
I am going to use my superior tech to service my clients who pay me and who benefit from my knowledge, and my ACD 30" -- My dell is great for the pallets however.
Stand Down.
Believe it or not, those features actually PRODUCE results. Results the Apple DOESN'T produce. Yet people here still praise the Apple and shun the Dell. Strange how that is. When Apple overcharges its customers, it's this kind of mentality that tells them they can get away with it and it's this kind of mentality that will allow them to do it again and again.
None of this matters for the pro market
None of what you describe matters to the pro market and the way DELL and others currently implement these features actually reduces their precision to the pros.
Again, you are speaking from ignorance and you are really making yourself look, well, young.
I would be respectful and say "inexperienced" but most inexperienced people know when to quit.
Young kids don't.
None of what you describe matters to the pro market and the way DELL and others currently implement these features actually reduces their precision to the pros.
Again, you are speaking from ignorance and you are really making yourself look, well, young.
I would be respectful and say "inexperienced" but most inexperienced people know when to quit.
Young kids don't.
WRONG
For Example, High Pixel Refresh Rate nearly always equals bad dithering which no Print or HD VIDEO editor would want.
Great for playback of the Finished Piece however.
You get MORE with an Apple monitor?? NO YOU DON'T! I've named 7 different important advantages that a "cheapo" Dell has and an Apple doesn't. All you've done is suggest the Apple is better for Photo Pros and only at certain tasks! It's not my fault that the Apple kool-aid doesn't taste so good on its way back up!! If you want me to believe you are right then explain how the Apples benefits outweigh the Dells, and show that the Dells weaknesses outweigh the Apples. DON'T just yell STAND DOWN, especially when it's YOU who cannot defend your position.
I have posted 3 links to pro level sources -- What "evidence" have you posted?
Citing specs does not count -- if they did, then I presume you'd use a PC over an Apple as most PC's have better Specs.
You don't have the experience to consider this discussion any further.
I will not do violence to you as I do not practice this.
I will now end this disucssion.
I will let our fellow forum members be the judges.
Goodbye
Dante
I do video and production for a living; plus video engineering. The ACD are the closest I've seen to actually matching a properly adjusted broadcast CRT video monitor as far as what you see in the FCP canvas (program) window.
I've used some Dells for travel and they are fine for run and gun type work. All the color, gamma and contrast/brightness controls make for a very easily screwed up color profile. It is not even worth calibrating since we rent them out with our computers.
That being said; I really don't trust anything on ANY LCD monitor when it comes to video. You really need a waveform/vectorscope and an external broadcast video monitor to make any real informed decisions. However, I'd say 80-90% of the time, when I am at home working on my G5 + 30" ACD, where I don't have the external goodies, when I go to work, I very rarely have to re-tweak anything.
Now the 20" old school NECs I have in the edit suite at work are truly sickening, but I have the external tools to make sure things look right.
I have a 23" ACD on the wish list.
-mark
I've used some Dells for travel and they are fine for run and gun type work. All the color, gamma and contrast/brightness controls make for a very easily screwed up color profile. It is not even worth calibrating since we rent them out with our computers.
That being said; I really don't trust anything on ANY LCD monitor when it comes to video. You really need a waveform/vectorscope and an external broadcast video monitor to make any real informed decisions. However, I'd say 80-90% of the time, when I am at home working on my G5 + 30" ACD, where I don't have the external goodies, when I go to work, I very rarely have to re-tweak anything.
Now the 20" old school NECs I have in the edit suite at work are truly sickening, but I have the external tools to make sure things look right.
I have a 23" ACD on the wish list.-mark
I have posted the real evidence that you have been dodging this whole conversation, or at least defending with things like "less response time is BETTER!" The fact is, if Apple wants to charge hundreds more for their products, they should have some newly refreshed technology in place to warrant it. Where's the LED tech that everyone else is using? Wheres the contrast? Wheres ALL the new tech that's come out in three years time!!! Hell, the Apple display doesn't even swivel!!!
Now I mean you no disrespect. I'm sure you've been in this business for a long time, but you know as well as I do that there are features that this monitor is missing because of its massive age. It's an overpriced and out of date consumer monitor that just happens to have a good color calibrator and a pretty case. Just like the G4 Powerbook was an overpriced and out of date laptop with a good OS and pretty case.
If the Dell can be had for 1250 no tax, I'll miss the pretty case of the Apple, but I'll enjoy the Dells or HPs better picture and additional features much more and I think most customers would agree...at least the ones that aren't drunk off of Steves love juice.
Now I mean you no disrespect. I'm sure you've been in this business for a long time, but you know as well as I do that there are features that this monitor is missing because of its massive age. It's an overpriced and out of date consumer monitor that just happens to have a good color calibrator and a pretty case. Just like the G4 Powerbook was an overpriced and out of date laptop with a good OS and pretty case.
If the Dell can be had for 1250 no tax, I'll miss the pretty case of the Apple, but I'll enjoy the Dells or HPs better picture and additional features much more and I think most customers would agree...at least the ones that aren't drunk off of Steves love juice.
I think the problem is you keep spouting specs and options without linking to an acknowledged professional in the industry "proving" they are better. I think I'll trust the professionals instead some marketing speak from the makers.
And Dante has already conceded that THEY ARE BETTER for the average consumer who is playing games and watching video on their computers; in other words, the typical home computer user, ie not a professional who HAS to have a monitor that accurately displays the proper color gamut in which they are working.
-mark
Dante has been being nice here, I however, feel that he does not need to be. are you just a complete idiot?! Or maybe you just can't read?
a PRO level monitor does not have all of the "features" because they are not needed. What the hell is the point of having a calibrated monitor if you can adjust the contrast, or tint, or..... ANYTHING? THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT A CALIBRATED MONITOR
The solution is equally simple: don't bother with either crowd because they're not the intended market. That's the one Apple's using. My point is that it doesn't make any more sense to add extra ports than to decrease the aesthetic of an Apple display. Obviously utility and aesthetics have a very closely matched rank at Apple, for better or worse.
No, you can't have the port because Apple doesn't care about you.
Don't be ridiculous. I would never buy an ACD at the prices they sell it for for my own personal use. I don't need the professional features on my home system, and I haven't done graphic design work since the days when people still avoided LCDs. My only point is that your desire for multiple inputs doesn't trump other peoples' desire for multiple inputs and no clutter, or more importantly, the target group's indifference to the issue. Professionals buying high-end equipment will buy a nice KVM switch if they want to use a single display with multiple machines (after all, wouldn't you likely have more than two computers and want to use the same keyboard and mouse as well?). The added value for them is close to zero.
Explain the complication. Really. It's the exact same thing, just clutter-free.
Why would you put the KVM on your desktop? You'd more likely put it neatly on the underside of the desk, out of the way. You'd still just have the ACD's two cables on your desk, and not some squidlike assembly.
If you're spending $800 on a 23" monitor, I don't think an $80 KVM is a problem (4-way).
Ding ding ding! This describes Apple as well.
Why? There's the fanboyism. Do you try to sell everyone Mac Pros and Final Cut Studio? Why would you try to sell everyone a Cinema Display? Just because it's the only display Apple makes doesn't mean everyone should buy one to add to their iMac or to hook up to their mini.
Of course it wouldn't. You don't put KVMs on your desk if you're a "neat and tidy" kind of person. You put them UNDER your desk. The monitor's extra port doesn't solve the "piles of keyboards and mice" problem that you would have, and it artificially limits you to TWO computers instead of two, four, eight, or even more systems available with a KVM to suit your particular needs. The "complicated setup" with multiple machines occurs with not using a KVM.
The Dell is a capable monitor. It's just supposedly not as accurate out of the box and that is a problem for people who spend hours messing with color. What Dante said was that the Dell was better "for the masses" but then continued to explain that the Apple is better because pros need color accuracy, as if that mattered. Pros that spend hours with color detail at the pixel level are no where near the majority. I'm sure there were many Pros that thought the $2500 G4 Powerbook was a good value as well, but that's only because they needed OSX on the go, not because it was full of feature rich and current hardware.
My point is that since this monitor is so old, it should not cost this much. Sure it's worth it to a very select few, but that doesn't make it a good value and Apple knows this. They would lower the price if they thought they could get away with raising it up again when these features are finally added. Instead, when they finally do add the new features, they are going to say "Look at all this new value you're getting for the SAME money!!! Aren't we great here at Apple???"
My point is that since this monitor is so old, it should not cost this much. Sure it's worth it to a very select few, but that doesn't make it a good value and Apple knows this. They would lower the price if they thought they could get away with raising it up again when these features are finally added. Instead, when they finally do add the new features, they are going to say "Look at all this new value you're getting for the SAME money!!! Aren't we great here at Apple???"
I'm just stunned at the debate going on here. I guess that I will be going for the ACD display knowing that it will be a good boost to my photographic rendition. Plus it works right out of the box.
Yes, but the sarcasm about your supposition about the way Apple works isn't correct.
You assume just because a monitor is old then it's lousy by default. Does that mean I need to throw out my PowerMac G3 then?
I read this [the Seybold report] a few months ago. Too bad there hasn't been a follow up lately measuring the latest CG211 from Eizo, as an example.
Rumor has it that the next revision of the Apple Cinema Display will have HDMI inputs, and support 10 bit per channel, as well having a wider gamut.
Some people may wonder why use HDMI? The latest HDMI spec 1.3a supports up to 16 bit per channel for wide gamut displays, and DVI doesn't support it officially. For DVI to support 10 bpc, you will need to use Dual Link DVI, which is a hack.
If true, I am so looking forward to get one.
Dante, for presswork, what is your opinion on the CCT of displays. Should a pressman use 6500K due to as some say, a weird physiological effect of emissive light vs reflected light, or 5000K for a truer match?
First off, this is my first post. I registered just to reply to this message after reading for the past few weeks around the boards.
Second, I don't own a Mac. Yet.
Third, I'm a week away from graduating with a BDes degree in Visual Communications.
As a designer starting my own business, I'm looking around to get myself the best possible quality for my money. I've already played with a fair chunk of monitors myself, often frustrated with how color doesn't appear the way I want it to look. How can I impress a client when I print a mock-up that's supposed to show a nice green, but rather shows a puke green? It looks great on screen, but it's lying to me. I couldn't even tell if that dark color is a dark red or a dark brown, where a slight color difference could ruin the look of a website. Color is crucial.
I could care less if an ACD monitor doesn't have any other settings other than brightness. In fact, that's a good thing, it shows how well this monitor can be calibrated and hints that it works well right out of the box. I could care less if it is two years old if it still produce exceptional color quality for its value. If you take a look at the Buyer's Guide, Apple did improve the brightness of the 30" ACD at the end of March.
This monitor is specifically made for serious professionals like myself. If you want it for games, go ahead and get a Dell monitor. I know my gf is getting one soon, and I'm happy for her. As a designer, I can't afford to have any screw-ups, and a slight color or tonal change makes a huge difference. While it might not matter to you, it matters a lot to design professionals. If it can give me what I want to see better than any of the Dells can, then that's what I need.
Yes I have heard that the new Apple's will support 10 bits per channell with a wider gamut -- this is why I have been holding off on a second ACD 30. If this is the case it will be fantastic.
And before others jump on me for what could be consider a flip flop -- that is going for a wide gamut Apple ACD, know 2 things: 1) I already addressed this in a previous post, and 2) the new Apple High Gamut ACD, unless the current Dell and HP is rumored to be true 10 bit, not 8 / 10 / 8 or 8 / 8 / 8 like the Dell and HP -- this means: the high gamut will actually be more accurate between pixels that are similar in RGB color unlike the current "new technology (insert laugh) Dell and HP in which Pixels of similar color are actually distorted to meet the expanded gamut of the monitor.
It is ironic to me that you brought up the whole 6500 versus 5000 temperature thing. Our ACD runs closer to 5,000 whereas our Mitsubishi and NEC run at 6500 -- but just yesterday I knocked the Mitsubishi down to 5,000 for this reason: The quality, opacity and brightness of the gloss offset papers we print on is improving and seem to have a "cooler" feel.
We used to use a "simulate paper white" setting on our SWOP HP DesignJet 130 proofer with EFI Designer RIP -- this would "warm" the paper up to match the older duller sheets and in this case the monitor setting of 6500 worked better. But the newer offset papers, and the Digital inkjet prints we make (for tradeshows, banners, displays, etc) now resemble the cooler, brighter 5,000 setting.
So at this very moment we are trying to figure this out ourselves. We are actually linearizing our printers based on the new cooler papers and then calibrating the printers and monitors to resemble this linearization.
I'll start a thread someday under the Peripherals Forums and will send you a private email if and when we ever get a handle on this question.
It's a great one.
Please share any info you find on this topic with me as well.
We are all very serious over here about using the best combination of technology and knowledge to satisfy our client base.
Thanks,
Dante
Amen, my friend: First welcome to Macintosh Fold and Second, Welcome to the Professional World of Video, Graphics, Print, Web and Multimedia Production.
With a Client Centered Attitude (as opposed to ego driven) like yours, you will go far.
There are Many Millions of Professionals out there in our industry and in Dental and Medical Imaging, Aerospace, 3D Modeling, Architecture, Landscaping, Science and Research, etc who make up a very large chuck of Apple's user base. We are the folks who buy the Pro Machines.
Nice to see you understand the importance of the right technology, be it two years old or brand new.