Apple Discounts Cinema Displays

[Jim Campbell]

I seriously doubt that 30% of Apples customers require that intricate level of detail at the pixel level more than the higher contrast ratio, better pixel response time, hundreds of dollars of savings, higher color gamut, more display inputs, monitor movement flexibility, etc etc etc. You and many in this thread are looking for any way on earth to justify Apples shortcomings that are here not because of design flaws, but because of an almost 3 year old design.

You, sir, are a ****ing idiot who knows nothing.

The point you make here shows you up for the troll you are. No-one ... let me say that again - no-one - is forced to buy an Apple display.

Any product is priced at the level of its perceived value: why buy a BMW? A Lada has a petrol engine, a wheel on each corner and will get you from A to B. The difference in this example is that a Beemer exists primarily as a status symbol, whereas a number of very knowledgeable folks have tried to explain the value of Apple monitors' colour accuracy to you.

Let me try it again: It. Just. Works. Nearly ten years ago, my Performa 6400 displayed creditable colour proofs that output to my Epson Photo EX almost identically and came back from the printers indistinguishable from the proofs to the naked eye.

By contrast, the first third-party monitor I had to work on showed me images that bore no ****ing resemblance whatsoever to the printed image.

When you've had to personally apologize to the guy running the press for a **** up that's cost the business thousands then you can tell me that the price saving on a Dell monitor is worthwhile.

Until then, either shut up or get a clue.

Cheers

Jim

 

[matticus008]

What Dante said was that the Dell was better "for the masses" but then continued to explain that the Apple is better because pros need color accuracy, as if that mattered.

It matters to them. Why can't you get it through your head that you're not supposed to buy the Apple Cinema Display? They're not trying to sell it to you. There are excellent consumer displays available from Samsung and BenQ and Dell. They're cheaper, and they obviously do what you want. Go buy one and enjoy it.

Pros that spend hours with color detail at the pixel level are no where near the majority.

And people with cameras who need Final Cut Studio are nowhere near the majority, either. What's your point? That professionals shouldn't be offered products that suit their needs because they're not in the majority?

My point is that since this monitor is so old, it should not cost this much. Sure it's worth it to a very select few, but that doesn't make it a good value and Apple knows this.

What does age have to do with it? The technology in them is capable of performing at the expected level for professionals; that's all that matters. The ACD has never been, and likely never will be, a good value for consumers. It's not a consumer panel. If you don't think it's worth the price, just buy something else.

Apple's not going to halve the price just to sell the panel to more customers--it's already selling them in satisfactory numbers and it's popular in its intended field. Just like the Mac Pro is not for your average Dell-buying customer, the ACD is not for him or her, either.

 

[dante@sisna.com]

It. Just. Works. Nearly ten years ago, my Performa 6400 displayed creditable colour proofs that output to my Epson Photo EX almost identically and came back from the printers indistinguishable from the proofs to the naked eye.

By contrast, the first third-party monitor I had to work on showed me images that bore no ****ing resemblance whatsoever to the printed image.

Yes! This is why SWOP Certification from http://www.color.org is so important.

For a great March 2007 General Discussion on a Monitor's Role in Soft Proofing from "Newspapers & Technology" visit this link:

http://www.newsandtech.com/issues/2007/03-07/pt/03-07_virtual-proofing.htm


Pay special attention to this quote: "Many LCDs that are marketed as color-calibrated or color-managed monitors essentially have their own onboard graphics cards that interpret the color data (8-bit) from the application using 10-, or 12-bit LUTs to optimize color and grayscale gradation."

And therein lies the problem of current High Gamut (non-SWOP certified) monitors -- They have wildly unpredictable color consistency due to the interpolation used in the 8bit to internal 10/12bit conversion to high gamut.

When New Technology Catches Up (and Hopefully Apple's High Gamut Release will do so) then it will be able to achieve SWOP certification.

As Jim says, it is all ABOUT OUR CLIENTS!

Twelve years ago I failed in this SWOP certified process, had a client take me to court over color matching and I lost. I refunded $2,700 bucks. That was the last time. Now I have a true color-matched process that is FULLY SWOP Certified. If I ever go to court again I can make my case on the SWOP certification system as govered by graphic arts guild. I would not loose this time. The extra money for a great-deal Apple SWOP certified monitor pays for itself in ONE JOB.

Can't say that with a cheap monitor.

 

[deadpoet]

Just bought a 20" Cinema Display this morning. I have to say this is by far the best LCD I've ever owned. After calibrating it with my Spyder2, the colour gamut exceeds even that of the EIZO L997 (calibrated) in several axes. Superb stuff.

The only area where my ACD isn't so hot is in distinguishing the darker blacks, but that's a common problem among LCDs. Also, the fact that you can't lower the brightness to very low levels is a bit annoying since I have very sensitive eyes, but I suspect Apple did this to preserve colour accuracy.

I calibrated at lowest brightness and highest brightness and there is only a tiny difference in colour gamuts. Well done!

And I'm seriously sick of the jackasses who troll the Cinema Display threads. I'm a professional web designer who works with photos as well as images and I know exactly what my needs are. The ACD meets my needs very well. And it costs 3x less than the EIZOs that we use at work, so I can't complain. At work, the web team and the digital imaging unit use EIZOs. The graphic designers and curators use ACDs. Everybody is happy.

 

[MacsAttack]

New prices are a step in the right direction. Now they just need to provide the same level of support that every other manufacturer provides as standard. Or slash at least another £100 off the price.

With Apple I can expect a 1 year warranty under which I have to take a faulty unit to an approved service center and drop it off - wait (weeks) for it to be repaired - then go pick up the unit. Everyone else gives you 3 years (or even 5 years) on-site swap out.

Apple can make their displays as fancy as they want, but with crud support they just don't cut it in the UK market even with these "reduced" prices.

 

[matticus008]

With Apple I can expect a 1 year warranty under which I have to take a faulty unit to an approved service center and drop it off - wait (weeks) for it to be repaired - then go pick up the unit. Everyone else gives you 3 years (or even 5 years) on-site swap out.

It's simply not reasonable to expect on-site monitor service for American products. Who provides that in the UK, apart from Dell, which has a large presence? For what it's worth, on-site service is rare for individual customers in the US, period. Dell Home customers with standard warranty service have to send in their machines for repair and wait for the return shipment. If you're waiting several weeks for a repair/replacement, that sounds like a problem with your service center (most are independent and unaffiliated with Apple).

However, the silver lining is that you do indeed have a 3-year limited warranty in the UK--it is not as comprehensive as the optional AppleCare, but it is mandated by law.

 

[enjoyapple]

question is "are we gonna get new ACD soon?" when will that be?
i'm stucked with a bad choice here: buy a 23" or a 30" now or wait till the updates. i'm so tired of waiting but would be quiet pissed of if they bring new ones in a month from here. is that realistic or not?... or will we have to wait till the end of the year to get new displays?...

 

[vohdoun]

New prices are a step in the right direction. Now they just need to provide the same level of support that every other manufacturer provides as standard. Or slash at least another £100 off the price.

With Apple I can expect a 1 year warranty under which I have to take a faulty unit to an approved service center and drop it off - wait (weeks) for it to be repaired - then go pick up the unit. Everyone else gives you 3 years (or even 5 years) on-site swap out.

Apple can make their displays as fancy as they want, but with crud support they just don't cut it in the UK market even with these "reduced" prices.

Since you're in Scotland, where is the nearest approved Apple Center? Looking up the Apple stores in the UK they are all down in England, and quite frankly thats like 200 - 400 mile drive to London or Sheffield I would not take.

question is "are we gonna get new ACD soon?" when will that be?
i'm stucked with a bad choice here: buy a 23" or a 30" now or wait till the updates. i'm so tired of waiting but would be quiet pissed of if they bring new ones in a month from here. is that realistic or not?... or will we have to wait till the end of the year to get new displays?...

The question is, how cheap are the new displays going to be? If they have touch screen I can see maybe the price doubling... I doubt very much the new models will not be at the current prices.

I have no clue on the rumours that the new displays are suppose to have built in isight or touchscreen, but I've just bought a second display because of that. I am not the least bit interested in a built in isight or touch screen so I decided to make use of these great prices for a second Apple display.

So the thing is what do you really need, and how important is it to you that you need one. To be honest if I were you I'd buy a 30", I thought after two years a 23" would be big enough for me. I'm so use to the 23" it feels so small to me now.

 

[MacsAttack]

It's simply not reasonable to expect on-site monitor service for American products.

You are joking, right??? American Product? American monitors! German monitors! All same! All made in errr.. China and Korea. Just like all the others.

Just take a stroll through these...

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/productlist.php?groupid=17&catid=510

That is but a small selection as an example. Most manufacturers do indeed provide at least 3 year on site warranty here. Simple fact is that Apple support is just not good in the UK - which considering how much they hike up the prices here is just insulting.

 

[MacsAttack]

Since you're in Scotland, where is the nearest approved Apple Center? Looking up the Apple stores in the UK they are all down in England, and quite frankly thats like 200 - 400 mile drive to London or Sheffield I would not take.

About 20 miles to an aproved service centre (not an Apple store, a third party company approved by Apple as a service centre).

The drill goes like this... Your Apple monitor packs in. You drive off to the service center and drop off the monitor. They look at it and phone you to say they don't have the part. You wait and hope they only take a few weeks to sort it out. Then you get to drive back and pick the thing up.

Contrast to - Pick up the phone and ring a free phone line. Give the helpful person on the other end your serial number and address. Pack up the dud monitor. Next business day a van pulls up, unloads a box with a working new or refurbished monitor (depends on your luck here) and take the broken one away.

There is an Apple Store supposed to be opening in Glasgow, but once it is open it is still a lot of trouble (and time) to haul a monitor in there if something goes wrong - and no guarentee that it would be fixed any quicker than in the third party centre.

 

[vohdoun]

About 20 miles to an aproved service centre (not an Apple store, a third party company approved by Apple as a service centre).

The drill goes like this... Your Apple monitor packs in. You drive off to the service center and drop off the monitor. They look at it and phone you to say they don't have the part. You wait and hope they only take a few weeks to sort it out. Then you get to drive back and pick the thing up.

Contrast to - Pick up the phone and ring a free phone line. Give the helpful person on the other end your serial number and address. Pack up the dud monitor. Next business day a van pulls up, unloads a box with a working new or refurbished monitor (depends on your luck here) and take the broken one away.

There is an Apple Store supposed to be opening in Glasgow, but once it is open it is still a lot of trouble (and time) to haul a monitor in there if something goes wrong - and no guarentee that it would be fixed any quicker than in the third party centre.

The same suckiness that everything in the UK suffers from. It seems to be todays practise. We'll get around to it when we feel like and we do not care if you're a business making a living from it, you'll still be treated like a consumer. When we get around to it!

 

[enjoyapple]

Since you're in Scotland, where is the nearest approved Apple Center? Looking up the Apple stores in the UK they are all down in England, and quite frankly thats like 200 - 400 mile drive to London or Sheffield I would not take.



The question is, how cheap are the new displays going to be? If they have touch screen I can see maybe the price doubling... I doubt very much the new models will not be at the current prices.

I have no clue on the rumours that the new displays are suppose to have built in isight or touchscreen, but I've just bought a second display because of that. I am not the least bit interested in a built in isight or touch screen so I decided to make use of these great prices for a second Apple display.

So the thing is what do you really need, and how important is it to you that you need one. To be honest if I were you I'd buy a 30", I thought after two years a 23" would be big enough for me. I'm so use to the 23" it feels so small to me now.

i'll probably do so after the NAB. a 30 is my dream and my money's been saved for it. it's just that two years ago, when you bought the highest from apple, you were shure that your screen was going to rock for a few years. now's not the same. isights and HDMI would be a great addition even for a 300$ more. i would pay that price. touch screen? i don't really think it's gonna come any sooner but hey, i'd surelly like to be suprise!. a lot do seems that an isight on a 30 ADC wouldn't make any sense and wouldn't be pratical, but hey, a 30" is almost at the same height than an imac 24" which has an built in isight. I'll wait till the NAB and if i do find handcuffs, till WWDC but not much more. it's been a year and a half since i'm waiting for ADC's updates.. i'm just bored i guess. i'm from france and can get the 30 for 1600 euros at the a. store education. not that bad considering it was 2100€ a month ago.
and if the do update on september 07, i could always sell my 30" for a good price. that's what keeps me thinking i should buy one after WWDC if no new products, unless they release a 30" brand new redesigned imac for even a 2500$. keep on dreaming pal!

 

[lshaner]

Buyers Guide and "Apple Discounts Cinema Displays" -- call for correction

I don't think that merely a lowered price should constitute an "update" and a "Buy Now" recommendation.

This is NOT the update that folks have been anticipating.

There is no built-in iSight camera, which is sorely needed for use with Mac Pro and Mac Mini, due to the discontinuation of the standalone iSight.

Also, there is an expectation that Apple will convert to the HDMI standard instead of DVI-D. That'd be another welcome update in the Cinema Display line.

My recommendation is to regard the price drop as newsworthy, but as this is not actually a product update, the Buyer's Guide should not regard it as such and should not recommend a "buy now."

 

[fairnymph]

I am really hoping this means they are trying to sell off existing stock before releasing an updated ACD, with MORE pixels. I wouldn't mind a smaller screen either, like 17" widescreen. HDMI would be excellent.

I'm wondering if they will release new ACDs at NAB? Seems like a semi-reasonable possibility?

I need them to release a better ACD before (or very near to) leopard bc when I buy my mac pro I will no longer be able to use my SGI 1600sw without buying an expensive adapter.

 

[matticus008]

You are joking, right??? American Product? American monitors! German monitors! All same! All made in errr.. China and Korea. Just like all the others.

But sold by different companies. It doesn't matter where the monitor was actually built. If you want an American company to service your product, you're lucky you don't have to send it to the United States.

Just take a stroll through these...

Unless "on-site" means something different in the UK, nearly all of those are RMA/cross-shipping warranties. They don't physically come to your house, which is what on-site usually implies over here. You can ship your monitor back to Apple centers in Europe, too, based on my experience. I assumed you meant on-site in the sense that they provide pickup services themselves. If you simply mean that they send a box to your door and not a person, Apple provides that too.

Simple fact is that Apple support is just not good in the UK - which considering how much they hike up the prices here is just insulting.

The price hike is mostly imagined. VAT is required by your government and not by the US, so if you want lower prices, you're going to have to give up all the other benefits of VAT. US advertised prices are about 7% lower than their actual price on average. US purchasing power is also better, by 15-20%, and that's an inevitable market force. All told, there's almost no actual markup on the products.

I'm tired of the myth that UK shoppers are being ripped off by Apple (or by other companies as appropriate for other forums). If they're being "ripped off" at all, it's by their own government and their own economy. £1 buys you less than £1.96 in general, so prices are going to be 15% higher to begin with. VAT will increase prices another 15%. In the end, you're only paying about 4% more in the UK, which is quite reasonable.

 

[BiikeMike]

I need them to release a better ACD before (or very near to) leopard bc when I buy my mac pro I will no longer be able to use my SGI 1600sw without buying an expensive adapter.

well, you could buy a $175 adapter, or a $1000 display.....

 

[Spanna]

I understand that the Apple monitors are targeted to professional users and I think it's good that Apple provides Pro gear. I just wish that Apple would make a consumer level monitor as well so I could have all apple gear. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants matching equipment and I think Apple's designs are a major reason that people buy Apple products. At the current price the Apple displays just aren't economically feasable to consumers but many people who buy Apple products would cringe at having a third party monitor sitting next to there mac mini or mac book or even there imac.

 

[bearbo]

dont meant to troll, just beg to understand, so please bear with me

Let me get you started on YOUR comparison. I'll start by explaining to you WHY larger color gamut monitors are not the best for high end Offset and Digital Print production where color match is critical.

This from Monitor God, Karl Lang, the architect of the Sony Artisan, the Radius PressView, ColorMatch, ProSense and many other products. He has worked with display technology both CRT and LCD for the last 15 years.

He says:

snip

********** Now on to those "Front Panel Display Controls" that so many like to tout as making the New Dell's Superior:

snip

*****You can find the full text of Lang's posts and related discussions at:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9613&hl=prosense

My own experience producing high Color Matched Offset Print, Web, Digital Print and Flash Video confirms this.

Our new high gamut HP 30" is great for Video and Web Playback -- but it goes not where near our production workflow.
Dante

the explanation helped me understand a little bit, but i'm still confused at the following points
1. are we saying all HC is bad (provided we dont have true 10-bit/channel), and all non-HC is good? that is there's no real difference between the non-HC displays?
or
even between the non-HC (i guess i'm still comparing dell with acd), there is a difference... that is, dell is inherently unable to display color the way graphic card wants it to (but why? doesn't dell 30 use same panel as acd 30?)
2. is HC only good when the rest of the workflow can transmit the color and print the color? and since apple is coming out with HC eventually, does that mean by then, the dell 30-HC is then somewhat equal, or is it still unable to produce color accurately for some reason (if so, what reason is that)
3. if front control panel is bad, what's the difference between have one and not use it (in dell's case) and not have one(in acd's case)?
4. what's SWOP?

again, i'm just trying to understand these concepts, i'm in the market for a display currently

 

[fairnymph]

well, you could buy a $175 adapter, or a $1000 display.....

Are you referring to a particular display already on the market, or just saying that's how much you think new, higher res ACDs will cost?

Bc I'm happy with a 17". I just refuse to go down in pixels. But I don't necessarily need a larger monitor. I guess it's doubtul though that in a new line Apple would make any monitors smaller than a 20". :\

 

[meth]

nice price drops. with student discount on the 23 is 200 less. the refurbished looks to be the same price though IIRC.

i do want the multiple inputs on the ACD. what for? i currently have a samsung 240T which has nasty color calibration(can't get it right for some reason) so i really want the ACD. I have an OS9 G4 i use semi-often, and i just dread the thought of always getting to the back of the monitor that often with my workspace, quality doesn't matter on that computer but does on my main machine. PLUS, i got too used to PIP and would love any future ACD to have PIP. the amount of hours i work, watching the game as i work without having to strain your neck for 10 hours is just priceless. oh well, i can hope, but next revision or not i need the ACD as i can't go on too much longer with the color issues i am having.

 

[joachim]

Dante – Thanks

Bc I'm happy with a 17". I just refuse to go down in pixels. But I don't necessarily need a larger monitor. I guess it's doubtul though that in a new line Apple would make any monitors smaller than a 20". :\

Out of curiosity, why a 17"? I can't work on a monitor that's smaller than a 19", and I find that my productivity increases vastly on larger monitors.

 

[BiikeMike]

Meth,

I never understood why people need the PIP in a monitor. Why not just stream the game, put the DVD in your computer, etc and run it in a window in OSX? I guess if you want to watch TV that won't work so well, but.... then you really are not getting that much work done anyway

 

[fairnymph]

It's a widescreen 17" (I must have widescreen). I don't know if it's just because I've never had a larger monitor, so I'm unspoiled and don't know what I'm missing and am good at working with what I have, but I've never found desktop or workspace to be a problem with it.

 

[deadpoet]

i do want the multiple inputs on the ACD. what for? i currently have a samsung 240T which has nasty color calibration(can't get it right for some reason) so i really want the ACD.

You should buy a colorimeter, such as the Eye One Display 2 or similar. Trust me, even with an ACD, you still need a colorimeter to make maximum use of it.

After I calibrated my 20" ACD to 2.2 gamma with 6500K colour temperature using my Spyder2, the available colour gamut increased significantly according to ColorSync.

 

[vohdoun]

You should buy a colorimeter, such as the Eye One Display 2 or similar. Trust me, even with an ACD, you still need a colorimeter to make maximum use of it.

After I calibrated my 20" ACD to 2.2 gamma with 6500K colour temperature using my Spyder2, the available colour gamut increased significantly according to ColorSync.

I'd love to get one of those but quite frankly I find it too expensive for something you're only going to use once or twice...
Unless I can get one cheaper that does the same job?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/ColorVision-Spyder-Printer-Calibration-Software/dp/B000ES6K34 £115.98