Apple Distributing Safari for Windows via iTunes

[djellison]

"you could illuminate us on why Safari 3.1 is crap on XP?

It installed at work. I don't like it. It's slower than Firefox, I can't install the addons I can for firefox, it takes longer to load than firefox, it mal-renders several sites I visit which Firefox and IE7 do not. It is fundamentally superfluous to requirements on any PC I own. That is all a moot point, however. I don't care if if jumps off the screen and blows me, I don't want Apple presuming I want to install it and pushing a totally NEW app via an UPDATE utility. Installing an applicaiton I don't want, need or require via an Update utility is out of order. It's just the wrong way to treat users. The very fact that there has been a lot of negativity on the issue proves the point. Is this something that will piss off a lot of users - yes, it already has. So, should they have done it? No, and only a complete idiot wouldn't have seen this reaction coming. End of argument.


Doug

 

[NAG]

I read this before work yesterday and thought that it sounded questionable but left it at that.

When I got to work, my coworker called over from his desk asking me "How do I uninstall all this Apple crap from my computer" and I knew exactly what had happened. That is when I realized this was bad. I told him he probably didn't want to uninstall everything since I presumed that he likes Quicktime from time to time for watching videos. I told him for now, just say no to the software update. I hope it doesn't keep coming up and pestering him- i.e. NO means NO and don't ask again.

Anyway, there are so many different types of computer users in the world now that I'm not sure anyone can say what a "typical" computer user is. I think people who post to forums, blogs, etc. have their own idea but it may not be rooted in reality. Honestly, I think a lot more people treat their computers like plain appliances than we realize.

The issue, of course, is that most computers are NOT appliances. Imagine if every time you wanted to bake or broil something in your oven, dialogs popped up all over the little display. Hey, idiot- I know you're trying to cook your dinner- but Windows update has found 34523 updates. Close. Hey, dummy- you have a Safari install just waiting here for you. Close. Hey, stupid- you're oven's virus protection is not installed! Close. Sad to see Apple resorting to these tactics. Certainly hurts their name a little. Case in point- my coworker saying "How do I uninstall all this Apple crap from my computer?"

Actually you can tell him how to have the updater stop trying to install safari. There is an option to add/remove an update from the Apple Software Update list. It works just like
in OS X. If you see an update that you don't want, select it and hit the delete key (at least in OS X, not sure what the keystroke is for windows but there is a menu option). Thats it.

The problem here is that people are listening to a few bloggers on the internet, telling them to be outraged. Is it kind of silly that the Apple Software Update is kind of misnamed in that it offers to install any Apple software regardless of whether you have it installed? Sure. Is it a reason to get all indignant over? No. Hey guys, iTunes is recommending songs that other people who listen to the similar music I listen to! Lets attack Apple!

This is a case of a few geeks quibbling over semantics (oh noz! the software that says it checks for updates also offers to install new software! KAAAHHHNN!) and the subsequent fall out of people who read the rehash of a rehash of a rehash of some blog. This isn't even new to Apple. Remember all those "MAC os X haxxored!" blogs? People do this all the time to get page hits. This is the epitome of mountain out of a mole hill.

 

[clevin]

The problem here is that people are listening to a few bloggers on the internet, telling them to be outraged.

no, the problem is vast majority of ppl know nothing about this at all. and most of them just click through when doing "update" and eventually got unwanted app installed.

That, IS, THE, problem. Its never been about pros like you and me.

 

[wk127001]

I really wish apple would just abandon Safari and embrace Firefox, but at least with Apple underhandedly installing Safari it eats into IE's market share.

 

[TMay]

It installed at work. I don't like it. It's slower than Firefox, I can't install the addons I can for firefox, it takes longer to load than firefox, it mal-renders several sites I visit which Firefox and IE7 do not. It is fundamentally superfluous to requirements on any PC I own. That is all a moot point, however. I don't care if if jumps off the screen and blows me, I don't want Apple presuming I want to install it and pushing a totally NEW app via an UPDATE utility. Installing an applicaiton I don't want, need or require via an Update utility is out of order. It's just the wrong way to treat users. The very fact that there has been a lot of negativity on the issue proves the point. Is this something that will piss off a lot of users - yes, it already has. So, should they have done it? No, and only a complete idiot wouldn't have seen this reaction coming. End of argument.


Doug

I find that Safari 3.1 on a 3.0 GHz Pentium PC/2 GB RAM is faster to load than Firefox 2.0.0.12 (the latest production version). It takes about 5 seconds for Safari to load from a cold boot, and Firefox about 9 seconds. I find that Safari renders pages faster than Firefox as well. There is of course Firefox Beta that may be as you say.

I do agree that there are still some rendering issues, though it is difficult to determine if this is entirely due to Safari, which seems near to mastering the ACID 3 test, or to non-standard site practices.

On the issue of Apple including Safari as opt in on the updater, I don't find that this is a big deal, as I am used to seeing nag screens on the PC anyway, and it certainly wasn't the nature of RealPlayer past practices. Your mileage evidently varies.

I think that the geek sphere is making more of this than it deserves, appearing equivalent to the Sony spyware event, when it is clearly not.

 

[HLdan]

I don't want Apple presuming I want to install it and pushing a totally NEW app via an UPDATE utility. Installing an applicaiton I don't want, need or require via an Update utility is out of order. It's just the wrong way to treat users. The very fact that there has been a lot of negativity on the issue proves the point. Is this something that will piss off a lot of users - yes, it already has. So, should they have done it? No, and only a complete idiot wouldn't have seen this reaction coming. End of argument.


Doug

You said what Apple is doing will piss off a lot of users huh?? Well what are they (users) and YOU gonna do, inconvenience themselves and stop buying Apple products?? NO. If that was the case MS Windows would have lost tons of business years ago.

There are many people that don't even know Safari is available on Windows. This was mentioned before we (Mac users and PC users) need for Safari and Firefox to work on more websites and end this I.E. centric website crap.
I'm really shocked at these PC users, you all should be used to buying a new PC and getting graced with preinstalled crap on an already crap of a PC that you never asked for. At least Apple is asking you to download it, they are not preinstalling it.

 

[djellison]

I'm really shocked at these PC users, you all should be used to buying ...

FWIW I have not bought a new PC in more than a decade, I build my own.

Increasingly, however, when Apple screws up, it's apologists are saying that PC users shouldn't complain because M'soft has been doing the same for years. "Don't worry if Apple's getting all bundled, bloaty and presumptious - that's what you get with a New PC anyway" What the HELL? Isn't that sort of missing the point. Apple should be priding itself on doing the right thing, on NOT doing the things that the PC industry gets wrong. That simple act of hainv a totally new, unrequested application within an update list is the same as that bundled crud that comes with a new PC. One does not make the other right.

Doug

 

[clevin]

You said what Apple is doing will piss off a lot of users huh?? Well what are they (users) and YOU gonna do, inconvenience themselves and stop buying Apple products?? NO. If that was the case MS Windows would have lost tons of business years ago.

well, for example, EU fined M$ $600m for bundling media player. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody brings up class action, there are some states in the US having those anti malware laws.

and personally, I purchased two macs about 2 years ago, I have the feeling i won't be buying more, im sure I will be influencing people around me as well.

Of course, i means little in apple's big picture, so don't even bother to care.

There are many people that don't even know Safari is available on Windows. This was mentioned before we (Mac users and PC users) need for Safari and Firefox to work on more websites and end this I.E. centric website crap.
I'm really shocked at these PC users, you all should be used to buying a new PC and getting graced with preinstalled crap on an already crap of a PC that you never asked for. At least Apple is asking you to download it, they are not preinstalling it.

there are ways of doing this, firefox gets 17% market share by playing fair, which obviously means its possible. Why exactly apple feels they aren't capable of doing the right thing?

It doesn't matter what your "purpose" is, playing fair is the first standard. If you don't want to play fair, why should anybody believe what you said?

You kept comparing the low road of some windows apps makers with apple. are you seriously equaling apple to those companies? If you believe so, please admit.

 

[TMay]

well, for example, EU fined M$ $600m for bundling media player. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody brings up class action, there are some states in the US having those anti malware laws.

and personally, I purchased two macs about 2 years ago, I have the feeling i won't be buying more, im sure I will be influencing people around me as well.

Of course, i means little in apple's big picture, so don't even bother to care.

there are ways of doing this, firefox gets 17% market share by playing fair, which obviously means its possible. Why exactly apple feels they aren't capable of doing the right thing?

It doesn't matter what your "purpose" is, playing fair is the first standard. If you don't want to play fair, why should anybody believe what you said?

You kept comparing the low road of some windows apps makers with apple. are you seriously equaling apple to those companies? If you believe so, please admit.

It isn't malware, and you are quite mistaken if you think that there can be a class action suit based on this. Even if you install Safari by mistake from the updater, and you could only do that if you had previously installed itunes/quicktime, you could easily correct this by opening your desired browser and selecting it as the default browser through the popup.

From the wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malware

Malware is software designed to infiltrate or damage a computer system without the owner's informed consent. It is a portmanteau of the words malicious and software. The expression is a general term used by computer professionals to mean a variety of forms of hostile, intrusive, or annoying software or program code.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informed_consent

Informed consent is a legal condition whereby a person can be said to have given consent based upon an appreciation and understanding of the facts and implications of an action. The individual needs to be in possession of relevant facts and also of his or her reasoning faculties, such as not being mentally retarded or mentally ill and without an impairment of judgment at the time of consenting. Such impairments might include illness, intoxication, insufficient sleep, and other health problems.

It is conceivable that a person might not have the intellect to determine if Safari should be installed, or be unwilling to read the disclaimer, but I can't imagine that a browser would be consider malware.

 

[clevin]

It is conceivable that a person might not have the intellect to determine if Safari should be installed, or be unwilling to read the disclaimer, but I can't imagine that a browser would be consider malware.

Its less to do with what app being installed, more to do with users are being tricked. Lets face the fact, most users click through the updating process. and I bet 99.9% of ppl don't read any software disclaimers or licenses.

The expression is a general term used by computer professionals to mean a variety of forms of hostile, intrusive, or annoying software or program code.

Im not sure if this is new to many ppl, but apple's windows apps are pretty annoying to many windows users. If were not for iPod, I can't imaging how many windows users would use it at all.

 

[TMay]

Its less to do with what app being installed, more to do with users are being tricked. Lets face the fact, most users click through the updating process. and I bet 99.9% of ppl don't read any software disclaimers or licenses.



Im not sure if this is new to many ppl, but apple's windows apps are pretty annoying to many windows users. If were not for iPod, I can't imaging how many windows users would use it at all.

The point is that Safari isn't malware, and to say so is disingenuous, and even if the user feels duped, there isn't any damage.

I understand that you are a Mozilla supporter, but I happen to believe that this hysteria has a bit of astroturf underneath it.

 

[djellison]

The point is that Safari isn't malware,

According to Wiki "Malware is software designed to infiltrate or damage a computer system without the owner's informed consent. "

I don't believe those installing Safari by accident whilst thinking they're updating quicktime are giving informed consent, and the installation of a browser is certainly an infiltration. There's a good case to classify the update utility as malware on those grounds.

Doug

 

[powermac_daddy]

installed. the graphic?.... fox is better.

 

[alanrice38181]

A fix

Hi all, I made a fix to this problem, you can check it out on my blog. All you have to do is install two registry files and you wont have to worry about it popping up again. I would really appreciate someone to test it out as it works on my system but i dont have another system to test it on.
Thanks alan.

 

[HLdan]

Im not sure if this is new to many ppl, but apple's windows apps are pretty annoying to many windows users. If were not for iPod, I can't imaging how many windows users would use it at all.

The same goes for Microsoft's awful Office suite for the Mac, it's a joke to the Mac community. MS charges $500 for their new Office suite for Mac, we get it home, open it up and install it only to find out how horribly slow it is and less feature rich against the Windows version, I wonder why??
Then we can't take it back to the store because it's now open software and WE were tricked. At least Apple's software is completely free and don't go there about the iPod, for Mac users there are far less options but for Windows users you can buy any MP3 player, one in particular that gives you Windows style software would be the Zune. Remember you have a choice so don't act like you are forced to use the iPod.
Yeah, Windows users are "tricked" into downloading free software... If you are not smart enough to press "quit" or elect to no longer receive the software and the only thing you know to do is press the download button then you deserve to have been tricked as you put it.

 

[HLdan]

and personally, I purchased two macs about 2 years ago, I have the feeling i won't be buying more, im sure I will be influencing people around me as well.

Of course, i means little in apple's big picture, so don't even bother to care.

there are ways of doing this, firefox gets 17% market share by playing fair, which obviously means its possible. Why exactly apple feels they aren't capable of doing the right thing?

It doesn't matter what your "purpose" is, playing fair is the first standard. If you don't want to play fair, why should anybody believe what you said?

You kept comparing the low road of some windows apps makers with apple. are you seriously equaling apple to those companies? If you believe so, please admit.

This world is not about fairplay or you will not be successful. Here's an example, many people think Google is the fairplay company, nope, their search bar is built into Safari, Firefox and has a toolbar that gets bundled in a lot of Windows software and self installs into I.E.
This is why Google is so successful and Yahoo remains the underdog.
Everyone knows Microsoft is far from fairplay but their Windows OS holds 90% marketshare and I.E. holds 60% because it was forced on us and that led MS into a very successful world computing leaving Apple as the underdog.

You obviously know nothing about business if you think successful business is about playing fair.

There will be no successful class action lawsuits because Apple is only "offering" Safari through software update, it's the users choice to accept. Safari is not being bundled into iTunes and secretly getting installed so your argument is moot, sorry.

 

[irun5k]

I really wish apple would just abandon Safari and embrace Firefox, but at least with Apple underhandedly installing Safari it eats into IE's market share.

Well, it probably wouldn't be Firefox that would replace Safari, but rather Camino. If it were going to happen, which it won't.

The only legit reason I can think of that this didn't/won't happen is because the WebKit engine is used in other Apple applications, and Apple probably wants to maintain some control over it. Even though WebKit is open source I would bet a lot of the code commits that happen are by Apple engineers.

Going with a Mozilla-based browser would mean giving up some control by relying on Gecko. If the timing were different though, one could imagine a Mozilla team that had heavy influences and contributions from Apple.

It actually is a pain though doing web development because now days you can't overlook Safari. So that means developing and testing in THREE major browsers. I've always ignored browsers like Opera- you have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[sexyfoolxx]

The same goes for Microsoft's awful Office suite for the Mac, it's a joke to the Mac community. MS charges $500 for their new Office suite for Mac, we get it home, open it up and install it only to find out how horribly slow it is and less feature rich against the Windows version, I wonder why??
Then we can't take it back to the store because it's now open software and WE were tricked. At least Apple's software is completely free and don't go there about the iPod, for Mac users there are far less options but for Windows users you can buy any MP3 player, one in particular that gives you Windows style software would be the Zune. Remember you have a choice so don't act like you are forced to use the iPod.
Yeah, Windows users are "tricked" into downloading free software... If you are not smart enough to press "quit" or elect to no longer receive the software and the only thing you know to do is press the download button then you deserve to have been tricked as you put it.

You gotta be freakin kidding me that you feel "tricked" in the same way Apple is shoving buggy apps (that are slow and stick out like a sore thumb) down Window users throats. MS offers you a free trial. It was your decision to shell out the money, apparently you're a victim in the "not smart enough crowd" as well. You paid for the software, inserted the disk, then continued the install process. When a typical user sees a "update screen" that's exactly what they should get, updates for the products they have elected to install.

 

[HLdan]

You gotta be freakin kidding me that you feel "tricked" in the same way Apple is shoving buggy apps (that are slow and stick out like a sore thumb) down Window users throats. MS offers you a free trial. It was your decision to shell out the money, apparently you're a victim in the "not smart enough crowd" as well. You paid for the software, inserted the disk, then continued the install process. When a typical user sees a "update screen" that's exactly what they should get, updates for the products they have elected to install.

Show me where there's a free trial download of Office 2008 for Mac? I couldn't find anything since the inception of this inept crappy suite.
You have no just cause to complain about something you can simply say no to and even if you accidentally press download rolleyes you can simply delete it, YOU AREN'T OUT OF ANY MONEY.
Paying customers deserve well made software and not be tricked into crappy slow expensive bloatware which that would be Office 2008. Again show me where the software download is for a free trial of Office 2008 for Mac.

 

[sexyfoolxx]

Show me where there's a free trial download of Office 2008 for Mac? I couldn't find anything since the inception of this inept crappy suite.
You have no just cause to complain about something you can simply say no to and even if you accidentally press download rolleyes you can simply delete it, YOU AREN'T OUT OF ANY MONEY.
Paying customers deserve well made software and not be tricked into crappy slow expensive bloatware which that would be Office 2008. Again show me where the software download is for a free trial of Office 2008 for Mac.

I stand corrected, there is no free tiral for mac, i just assumed there was since Windows users have that option. Do they not have Office '08 installed on the macs at the Apple stores? Either way, MS didn't shove Office down your throat, or try to sneakily slip it in as some update. Meanwhile there are alternatives to the Office suite, even one that Apple creates,some of which are free options. I hardly see how MS "tricked" you into buying their software. You made the conscience choice to buy it. Apple touts themselves as "above MS." Apple created the 'Get A Mac' ads. Apple is pushing Safari (and checked for install by default) to all Windows iTunes users disguised as an update to other software the user installed on his/her computer. Most Windows users don't even realize what Safari is.

 

[MikeTheC]

Having just recently upgraded to Safari 3.1 for PPC, and running it on my old/slow/outdated iMac G4/800, I can tell you it's certainly faster and probably a bit nicer than previous releases. I seriously can't imagine why a Windows user wouldn't at least want to give it a try.

I don't see any evidence that Apple is actually forcing Safari 3 on anybody, and in any event does nothing ill to your computer, so frankly where's the fire?

As for Windows users "clicking to download without knowing any better", what the hell kind of lame excuse is that? "Oh, I just didn't know any better" isn't an excuse that will fly in a court of law, and usually doesn't fly too well in the court of public opinion. People who are truly that stupid shouldn't be allowed to own a computer in the first place. Nevertheless, as this is still a free country, the rest of society shouldn't be saddled with the responsibility for someone elses' actions.

As someone up-thread has already said, if somebody ignorantly clicks to download and install Safari, that's their own problem. Why should Apple be penalized for wanting to get Windows users "under the tent" so long as they don't go about it through some sneaky, devious or otherwise-underhanded way?

EDIT: Regarding Microsoft and their Office 2008 suite, they should truly be ashamed of themselves for producing a solution that bloated and slow. Perhaps they aren't getting the message, but the days of being able to successfully sink a product (in this case, Mac OS) by only releasing inferior products for it are coming to an end. It's taken a lot of time, effort, blood-sweat-and-tears from the community, but the public really no longer has any excuse for not realizing what a liability Microsoft has become.

 

[Apogee]

well, it's not really "pushing" in that they ask you if you want to install Safari 3.1. So you can say "no" and get on with your day.

arn

The trouble is with iTunes requiring more updates than even the very worst Windows apps you will see the same dialog pop up over and over again with Safari ticked by default.

so don't install it. pretty simple really.

Since when is Apple Software Update now called Apple Software Installer?

 

[MacFly123]

I say they are doing PC users a favor

 

[Apogee]

I don't see the problem. Windows is full of annoying pop ups. One more isn't going to change anything, it's still windows.

Dirty Practice huh? Now it's "Dirty"? Your choice of words is getting more laughable for every one of your posts.

Same with your blinded opinions.

So what would be your ideal way for Apple to get Safari in more computer users faces to increase marketshare so we can freely use any web browser without facing the dreaded "Sorry I.E. Only" without playing "Dirty". Waiting for people to go to the website to download it ain't gonna solve Jack Crap.

The same way Mozilla Firefox played all dirty pool with users right? Whatever happened to free choice?

Hiding an obscure option somewhere in a menu to ignore an "update" item is NOT.

Did you seemingly forget about Google's self-installing browser toolbars? Is that playing nice?
Don't worry, I won't reply anymore because I realize I'm talking to a brick wall.

Look, others are doing it worse! We should do likewise too, because we are better!

How is Apple sinking to Microsoft's level "good"? By the way, I never knew brick walls are capable of talking

 

[Apogee]

Of course you should read message boxes. You get into trouble otherwise. And it is fairly clear what is going on if you take a quick glance at it.

There is also the installer, which will appear and make you click next several times for people to cotton on.

Did the user specifically ask to install the software updater? To reword your argument perhaps using Apple software is trouble. Period.

You speak as though the user invited trouble to themselves. I rather see it as the passive users being actively attacked by Apple's arrogance.