Apple drops from 1st place (2013-2016) to 5th place in Laptop Magazine

[thesaint024]

I'm willing to accept that Apple's QA is hit-and-miss since many people are reporting problems, and I'm willing to accept the criticisms about the un-upgradeable parts.

I can also understand that many don't like the new keyboard and many who used the function keys would like to have them, but those are more opinions.

But some of the arguments don't make any sense to me honestly. I'm typing this on a 2016 15" tbMBP right now, and I'm loving it since I got it in February. Even the most controversial part, the touch bar, has grown on me significantly since getting better touch tool (which, the kind of touch bar customization should've come standard Imo).

I like having the large touchpad, since a big part of my workflow involves using gestures to flip between screens, and the touch gestures makes zooming/panning in illustrator and photoshop MUCH more intuitive and quicker.

Yep, the 2016 MBP is undeniably an upgrade for most. I don't know why people won't just accept it. They may not like it for their particular needs, but it doesn't mean it fails in all areas. You can always spot a hater because he/she doesn't like ANYTHING about it. That's just irrational and delusional. It may not be for you, but it's one of the best computers out there, undeniably. I agree that there are drawbacks and defects as documented, but these need to be put in perspective. Certain people like to make it seem like this is overwhelmingly the case.

 

[darksithpro]

It may not be for you, but it's one of the best computers out there, undeniably.

It's certainly one of the best looking laptops I've ever seen. If we had a laptop beauty contest it would prob get first place. MacOS is another strong point. But if you take those two things away for a sec and re-think the price points for what you get, are you still getting a good deal? Here's another way to look at it. If I take a base 15 inch MBP, took out all the guts, then put it all into a standard Sager/Cleveo laptop shell, put Windows 10 on it and tried to sell it, how much you think people would pay for it? How much would you pay for it? See where I'm getting at? People aren't buying MacBooks for the hardware specs, they're buying it for the Brand and macOS.

 

[bigpoppamac31]

Wasn't comparing to 2012, of course. It's $2600 for the base with 512 GB, $100 more than the 2015 with 512 and dGPU was when it came out. The 2016 has a better screen, better speakers, better dGPU, better SSD, better battery life for light to moderate use, better external monitor support, better size and weight, Touch ID, and runs cooler and more quietly. That doesn't include the more controversial improvements: the touch bar, larger track pad, new keyboard (that's actually pretty popular), more powerful and flexible ports.

More quiet? My 2014 rMBP 13" is silent. How much quieter can you get? lol

 

[thesaint024]

It's certainly one of the best looking laptops I've ever seen. If we had a laptop beauty contest it would prob get first place. MacOS is another strong point. But if you take those two things away for a sec and re-think the price points for what you get, are you still getting a good deal? Here's another way to look at it. If I take a base 15 inch MBP, took out all the guts, then put it all into a standard Sager/Cleveo laptop shell, put Windows 10 on it and tried to sell it, how much you think people would pay for it? How much would you pay for it? See where I'm getting at? People aren't buying MacBooks for the hardware specs, they're buying it for the Brand and macOS.

I agree with you for the most part. However, we all value things differently. You can compare specs to PC's and in that aspect the value might not be there for many. That's cool. But since we value things differently, it's still worth it to some. I wasn't necessarily saying its the best value out there. It's hard to place a value on intangibles (like that trackpad!). Just saying it's objectively one of the best packages that money can buy. I understand it's not a good value for many. That is what's nice about having so many choices. No hate for PC's, and sorry Apple failed to meet expectations for some.

 

[Sanpete]

It's certainly one of the best looking laptops I've ever seen. If we had a laptop beauty contest it would prob get first place. MacOS is another strong point. But if you take those two things away for a sec and re-think the price points for what you get, are you still getting a good deal? Here's another way to look at it. If I take a base 15 inch MBP, took out all the guts, then put it all into a standard Sager/Cleveo laptop shell, put Windows 10 on it and tried to sell it, how much you think people would pay for it? How much would you pay for it? See where I'm getting at? People aren't buying MacBooks for the hardware specs, they're buying it for the Brand and macOS.

Not that simple, or even close to that simple. Mac OS is certainly a big thing, and so it the confidence that the brand represents quality and customer service (to a degree, at least). But there are also other things, like the excellent screen, better than almost all the competition, perhaps the best speakers, the best external monitor support, the most powerful and flexible collection of ports, top-notch SSD speed, running cool and quiet, and having a small, light footprint. These things matter to some of us. Obviously it's a small minority of laptop buyers, but we do exist.

More quiet? My 2014 rMBP 13" is silent. How much quieter can you get? lol

That's great, but under stress your machine's fans will spin up and make some noise. According to measurements in reviews that track this kind of thing, the 2016 is quieter than its predecessors when that happens, and it happens less because it runs cooler.

 

[The Mercurian]

You continue to report as fact an unsourced rumor. That is dishonest, and not at all helpful.

This is not an unsourced rumour. This was reported by a named macrumours reporter after a sitdown interview with Apple and other reporters. Its a lot stronger source than the vast majority of rumours that appear as headline news on this site. It was simply not in quotes. That does not mean it is unsourced. Interviewers don't simply stick everything the interviewee said in quotes.

 

[JMacHack]

It's certainly one of the best looking laptops I've ever seen. If we had a laptop beauty contest it would prob get first place. MacOS is another strong point. But if you take those two things away for a sec and re-think the price points for what you get, are you still getting a good deal? Here's another way to look at it. If I take a base 15 inch MBP, took out all the guts, then put it all into a standard Sager/Cleveo laptop shell, put Windows 10 on it and tried to sell it, how much you think people would pay for it? How much would you pay for it? See where I'm getting at? People aren't buying MacBooks for the hardware specs, they're buying it for the Brand and macOS.

Apple has never really "won" the spec-per-price war, ever. Even in the good ol' Steve Jobs era which so many posters seem to look back on with rose-tinted googles. Even the criticisms of "thinness above all" date back to the mid-2000's.

Actually, there's a car-guy term that I think is analogous to this argument; "bench-racing".

In pure "bench racing" terms, no, the MacBook Pro has never been a winner compared to its cheaper competitors. What is different however, is what comes with the computer that makes up for it.
Like I said in a previous post, I simply could not imagine doing my work on say, an XPS, even though the specs are better. I've had many different Dells with better specs than their contemporary MacBook Pros, and it's honestly a worse experience. On top of that, they die or develop problems long before my Macs have ever done.

I get a unix-based OS, a fantastic trackpad, it works seamlessly with my iPhone, my music, photos, and videos are all sync'd automatically between my devices, even the much-derided touchbar and keyboard (ymmv) I've found to be useful.

Sure, you take out macOS and the machine loses a lot of luster, but Apple's always been more about having an ecosystem rather than just selling an isolated machine.

 

[The Mercurian]

Apple has never really "won" the spec-per-price war, ever. Even in the good ol' Steve Jobs era which so many posters seem to look back on with rose-tinted googles. Even the criticisms of "thinness above all" date back to the mid-2000's.

Actually, there's a car-guy term that I think is analogous to this argument; "bench-racing".

In pure "bench racing" terms, no, the MacBook Pro has never been a winner compared to its cheaper competitors. What is different however, is what comes with the computer that makes up for it.
Like I said in a previous post, I simply could not imagine doing my work on say, an XPS, even though the specs are better. I've had many different Dells with better specs than their contemporary MacBook Pros, and it's honestly a worse experience. On top of that, they die or develop problems long before my Macs have ever done.

I get a unix-based OS, a fantastic trackpad, it works seamlessly with my iPhone, my music, photos, and videos are all sync'd automatically between my devices, even the much-derided touchbar and keyboard (ymmv) I've found to be useful.

Sure, you take out macOS and the machine loses a lot of luster, but Apple's always been more about having an ecosystem rather than just selling an isolated machine.

I don't agree with you here. From about 2011 - 2014, the MBP out-specced all the mainstream rivals (by mainstream rivals I mean your Dell, Lenovo, HP's of the world and not including the even more expensive specialist built gaming laptops or I need to work in a volcano desktop replacements with xeon chips and 64gb ram type behemoths that you could find). This is why they were worth the premium price. They are not now.

 

[leman]

Even the criticisms of "thinness above all" date back to the mid-2000's.

A correction: the thin-and-light focus already started already in the Powerbook era. Both the PowerBooks and the MacBook Pros were consistently thinner and lighter than the average comparable laptop.

 

[JMacHack]

I need to work in a volcano desktop replacements with xeon chips and 64gb ram type behemoths that you could find)

That's pretty much what I had, and like I said specs don't make the machine, you have to look at the whole picture.

Not that I think the new machine is perfect by any standard, on the contrary, I do think there is a lot of room for improvement but I've weighed my options and picked out the new MBP for a variety of reasons. Which I do believe is worth the premium price (not that I wouldn't mind them being cheaper)

 

[The Mercurian]

That's pretty much what I had, and like I said specs don't make the machine, you have to look at the whole picture.

Not that I think the new machine is perfect by any standard, on the contrary, I do think there is a lot of room for improvement but I've weighed my options and picked out the new MBP for a variety of reasons. Which I do believe is worth the premium price (not that I wouldn't mind them being cheaper)

Best of luck with it!

 

[JMacHack]

Best of luck with it!

I've loved it so far, but time has a tendency to make an ass out of people.

 

[leman]

I don't agree with you here. From about 2011 - 2014, the MBP out-specced all the mainstream rivals

How do you define out-specced? The MBP pioneered the HiDPI screen during that time, sure. And it used strong CPUs (but this was always the case). But it still used fairly low-end GPUs, by contemporary standards. Once the competitors figured out how to make their own laptops with HiDPI displays, the status quo went back to what it was before.

What has traditionally distinguished Apple computers from the competition is functional design, functional balance and premium build quality. I believe this is still the case. At the same time, there is nothing revolutionary in what Apple has been doing with their laptop in the last decade (maybe aside from MacBook Air, which indeed has transformed the entire industry). The development of the PowerBook->MacBook Pro->MacBook Pro with Retina Screen->MacBook Pro with TouchBar is a strictly evolutionary one. It has followed exactly the same formula, continuously enhancing aspects of the same basic design*, which I would describe as "classical laptop". In this sense, indeed, Apple is the least innovatory company out there They don't try to reinvent the laptop formula, only to bring it to an ideal (of course, the notion of ideal is highly subjective).

*One could argue that touch bar is a revolutionary element, but that is a very different discussion. As I see it, it is an attempt to incorporate an additional interaction dimension into the classical laptop. It kind of makes sense, but it doesn't change too much.

 

[The Mercurian]

How do you define out-specced? The MBP pioneered the HiDPI screen during that time, sure. And it used strong CPUs (but this was always the case). But it still used fairly low-end GPUs, by contemporary standards. Once the competitors figured out how to make their own laptops with HiDPI displays, the status quo went back to what it was before.

What has traditionally distinguished Apple computers from the competition is functional design, functional balance and premium build quality. I believe this is still the case. At the same time, there is nothing revolutionary in what Apple has been doing with their laptop in the last decade (maybe aside from MacBook Air, which indeed has transformed the entire industry). The development of the PowerBook->MacBook Pro->MacBook Pro with Retina Screen->MacBook Pro with TouchBar is a strictly evolutionary one. It has followed exactly the same formula, continuously enhancing aspects of the same basic design*, which I would describe as "classical laptop". In this sense, indeed, Apple is the least innovatory company out there They don't try to reinvent the laptop formula, only to bring it to an ideal (of course, the notion of ideal is highly subjective).

*One could argue that touch bar is a revolutionary element, but that is a very different discussion. As I see it, it is an attempt to incorporate an additional interaction dimension into the classical laptop. It kind of makes sense, but it doesn't change too much.

Ah right yeah see I don't care a jot about GPU. I'm talking CPU speed, SSD speed, RAM speed. If that was what mattered to you and you didnt' care much about GPU, for a few years there the MBP was better than other options. Maybe not in everyone of those specs all the time - but as a package it was the best option. From memory I'm thinking 2011 - 2014. Then others caught up - particularly on the SSD speeds.

 

[Sanpete]

This is not an unsourced rumour. This was reported by a named macrumours reporter after a sitdown interview with Apple and other reporters. Its a lot stronger source than the vast majority of rumours that appear as headline news on this site. It was simply not in quotes. That does not mean it is unsourced. Interviewers don't simply stick everything the interviewee said in quotes.

You like others here have been misled by an inexcusably carelessly written article that doesn't clearly distinguish unsourced rumor from fact. It is an unsourced rumor. The Mac Rumors reporter wasn't at the meeting, and the rumor in question wasn't from the meeting anyway. Read the article and follow the link to the source.

https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/06/mac-pro-may-not-ship-until-2019/

Ah right yeah see I don't care a jot about GPU. I'm talking CPU speed, SSD speed, RAM speed. If that was what mattered to you and you didnt' care much about GPU, for a few years there the MBP was better than other options. Maybe not in everyone of those specs all the time - but as a package it was the best option. From memory I'm thinking 2011 - 2014. Then others caught up - particularly on the SSD speeds.

You're right about the SSD speed, that was an Apple specialty. I don't recall the CPUs and RAM being faster than what was available in Windows machines. It was always a limited choice of Intel chips.

 

[Feenician]

You like others here have been misled by an inexcusably carelessly written article that doesn't clearly distinguish unsourced rumor from fact. It is an unsourced rumor. The Mac Rumors reporter wasn't at the meeting, and the rumor in question wasn't from the meeting anyway. Read the article and follow the link to the source.

Yep. It's as credible as the "'Constant Negativity' From Pro Users Led Apple to Develop Modular Mac Pro, Which May Not Ship Until 2019", reported as fact but actually links to unsourced speculation from Them Holwerda of OSNews (surprised that site still exists), a blogger with a chip on his shoulder.

I know MR needs clicks but there's an increasing desperation about it. In any case I sure hope none of the staff call themselves journalists, because this stuff falls well, well short of that.

 

[maflynn]

I don't agree with you here. From about 2011 - 2014, the MBP out-specced all the mainstream rivals

For me it's less about the specs, and when I got my 2012 rMPB, I felt it contained a great balance of computing power, gorgeous screen (it was the first retina MBP), ports, battery weight all in a beautifully crafted enclosure (as I type this, I'm doing it in a Jony Ive accent )

I think around 2014 and 2015, apple's competitors started rolling out machines that gave Apple a run for the money, and the premium laptop market now has many options. Competition is a good thing, and so far it produced on the windows side some fantastic machines.

 

[thesaint024]

For me it's less about the specs, and when I got my 2012 rMPB, I felt it contained a great balance of computing power, gorgeous screen (it was the first retina MBP), ports, battery weight all in a beautifully crafted enclosure (as I type this, I'm doing it in a Jony Ive accent )

I think around 2014 and 2015, apple's competitors started rolling out machines that gave Apple a run for the money, and the premium laptop market now has many options. Competition is a good thing, and so far it produced on the windows side some fantastic machines.

Agreed. I for one am glad WinPC's keep catching up. I'm also glad they are innovating as well and not just waiting to rip off Apple which was the case prior. They're still doing it in design to a degree but also doing new things. So many choices now that make MBP's less than a slam dunk. If Apple has indeed hit an innovation or performance wall relative to competitors, they will have to drop prices. Everyone wins. If a PC fits my needs better, I will buy in a heartbeat. I'm still waiting for that killer app for touchscreen that makes it a must. For now, PC's still have a ways to go in hardware experience for me personally. That could change at any time.

 

[montanaco]

And you continue to reply, so go figure

Its neither dishonest nor unhelpful. This is rumor site and I can mention my experience of what I see in reviews and stories.

I mean he's right though. The article you keep referencing got their info from, and I quote "People and source's who know their stuff."

Apple is actually really confident in the new MBP and considering sales for Macs are still going up, reporting the opposite is definitely just silly (the opposite being that the majority of consumers are unhappy with the MBP 16, clearly they are buying it happily).

The only thing they have admitted wrong in, is the design of the Mac Pro.

 

[leman]

Ah right yeah see I don't care a jot about GPU. I'm talking CPU speed, SSD speed, RAM speed. If that was what mattered to you and you didnt' care much about GPU, for a few years there the MBP was better than other options. Maybe not in everyone of those specs all the time - but as a package it was the best option. From memory I'm thinking 2011 - 2014. Then others caught up - particularly on the SSD speeds.

Ok, I see. Yes, you are right. Apple was indeed ahead of competition here (btw, they were also being heavily criticised for their choices back then). But the reason behind that was because they took a particular risk and where the first to make this kind of product. Since then of course others have count up. So its again up to Apple do do something new that the others would try to copy. I guess their current attempt is the touch bar (which is probably not enough in itself). I'd really like them to attempt something unique, like having custom CPU/GPU combo with shared stacked RAM, or abandoning RAM altogether in favour of fast persistent memory (which is probably going to be the next big thing in computing).

 

[daihard]

That's pretty much what I had, and like I said specs don't make the machine, you have to look at the whole picture.

Not that I think the new machine is perfect by any standard, on the contrary, I do think there is a lot of room for improvement but I've weighed my options and picked out the new MBP for a variety of reasons. Which I do believe is worth the premium price (not that I wouldn't mind them being cheaper)

I'm like that, too. I look at Apple products as a package rather than a collection of individual parts. I much prefer Linux over macOS as an operating system, but when I look for a laptop, the overall usability of a MacBook Pro is unbeatable.

 

[tubeexperience]

Well, sorry guys, but the fact that that magazine gave Lenovo 10/10 on innovation and 14/15 on design (while Apple got 7 and 13, respectively), already tells you everything you need to know.

Lenovo has innovative features such as USB ports and removable SSDs.
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That has more to do with subjective judgements of the website staff. I have no idea why they gave Apple low innovation scores (almost everything about the 2016 MBP is innovative), while giving companies like Dell high innovation scores (Dell literally didn't do anything new in last two years at least).

Dell do innovating things such as releasing laptops with ports that people actually use.

 

[Sanpete]

Lenovo has innovative features such as USB ports and removable SSDs.
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Dell do innovating things such as releasing laptops with ports that people actually use.

And that's basically the level of analysis Laptop Mag uses.

 

[tryrtryrtryrt]

And that's basically the level of analysis Laptop Mag uses.

Please stop juggling. Please provide proofs. As for now we know that objectively Apple is on the 5th place.

 

[leman]

Please stop juggling. Please provide proofs. As for now we know that objectively Apple is on the 5th place.

No offence, but I am not sure you know what "objectively" means...