Apple drops from 1st place (2013-2016) to 5th place in Laptop Magazine

[leman]

@Naimfan What a subjective and provoking post. I'll bite though

CPU ever-so-slightly faster

At least Apple keeps using the fastest available CPUs... unlike some other players in the industry. BTW, for my work the CPU is 25% faster over the 2015 model (I posted benchmarks in these forums, look it up).

same RAM

You mean RAM that is as fast as DDR4 but being more energy-efficient? Yes, same RAM

same storage

Only almost twice as fast

worst keyboard ever

Sorry bud, you are in the 10% minority: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/keyboard-poll-owners-only-please.2039905/page-2#post-24468901

trackpad that can't reject extraneous input

Thats clearly nonsense, so I don't even have to comment on it.

emoji toy bar

Toy or not, its certainly has more utility than the useless function key bar.

25% smaller battery

Which consistently delivers same or better battery life time under both controlled tests and in real world use.

etc.

Why leave out the etc.? Like one of the brightest laptop displays on the market, with high-end color gamut, color accuracy and contrast? Or the fastest and most adaptable connectivity of any laptop currently being sold? Or very fast 3x3 WiFi? Or a built-in secure enclave chip?

The only thing more pathetic are the shills still trying to defend the indefensible.

Nah, not as pathetic as people who try to promote their personal fantasy as objective reality.

 

[Merode]

I have only tested tbMBP at the store and I think I wouldn't buy it.

First of all, the keyboard is really loud. I had 2015 model standing next to tbMBP and the difference is huge.
Second, the battery life is worse. Yes, yes, in light use it's better but I bough my MBP to work on it, not browse Facebook. It will be stressed most of the time.

When I was buying 2013 rMBP there were no such issues. There were no cons at all. If I haven't had it and needed one, I'd get 2015 model and this is what Apple observed. They said in the meeting that introduction of tbMBP caused spike in 2015 model orders.

 

[Sanpete]

agreed, but as reported in the news thread, it was the complaints of the MBP that finally pushed Apple to face the issues about the professional customers being very unhappy.

You continue to report as fact an unsourced rumor. That is dishonest, and not at all helpful.

 

[maflynn]

You continue to report as fact an unsourced rumor. That is dishonest, and not at all helpful.

And you continue to reply, so go figure

Its neither dishonest nor unhelpful. This is rumor site and I can mention my experience of what I see in reviews and stories.

 

[Sanpete]

And battery isn't better then on MBP 2015. Not even close. I didn't have battery problems, but couldn't get pass 5.5h mark no matter how I used the laptop.

Objective, carefully controlled tests show the battery life for the 2016 15" is better for light to moderate use than for the 2015. You can check the reviews at Notebook Check and Ars Technica. Who knows why you got such poor battery life, but that wasn't normal. Not even close.

I have only tested tbMBP at the store and I think I wouldn't buy it.

First of all, the keyboard is really loud. I had 2015 model standing next to tbMBP and the difference is huge.
Second, the battery life is worse. Yes, yes, in light use it's better but I bough my MBP to work on it, not browse Facebook. It will be stressed most of the time.

You tested the battery life in the store? It depends on what kind of work you do. The battery won't last longer for running the machine all out, probably, but who does that on battery with any laptop without an external battery or plugging in?

When I was buying 2013 rMBP there were no such issues. There were no cons at all.

Haha, the good old days of no issues! Very funny.

They said in the meeting that introduction of tbMBP caused spike in 2015 model orders.

I see @maflynn's continual misdirection has fooled you, and no doubt others.

 

[Fishrrman]

Sanpete wrote:
"A subjective ranking from a spotty source. The reviews that emphasize more objective things rate the MBP higher."

I disagree, and I'm very much "an Apple fan" (I don't do Windows, never have).

Apple's slide from first to fifth place was clearly their own fault.
Reasons why:
- they waited too long to release new product.
- when they did, the product was perceived as "not enough of a jump forward" to justify the longer lead time.
- too many glitches (battery life, keyboard, etc.). Not deal-killers, but not up to Apple's usual high standards.
- and of course, the high prices.

This did not dissuade -me- from buying a new MacBook Pro.
However, after looking at the just-released 2016's, I weighed my options, and...
...bought the 2015 MBPro instead.

 

[Merode]

You tested the battery life in the store? It depends on what kind of work you do. The battery won't last longer for running the machine all out, probably, but who does that on battery with any laptop without an external battery or plugging in?

No, I based my battery statement on opinions and reviews that are available in the media. The same way I don't have to put my finger in the boiling water to know it's hot.

Who uses laptops all out without external power source? I don't know. Maybe people who use laptops the way they were meant to be used? As a mobile computers.

It's a fact that battery has gotten worse. Keep rationalizing your purchase.

 

[leman]

No, I based my battery statement on opinions and reviews that are available in the media.

This confuses me somehow. All reviews by respectable media I am aware of (except the very controversial consumer reports one) have reported that the battery life of new models is better or at least on par with the old ones. What reviews were you looking at?

 

[Sanpete]

Sanpete wrote:
"A subjective ranking from a spotty source. The reviews that emphasize more objective things rate the MBP higher."

I disagree, and I'm very much "an Apple fan" (I don't do Windows, never have).

Apple's slide from first to fifth place was clearly their own fault.
Reasons why:
- they waited too long to release new product.
- when they did, the product was perceived as "not enough of a jump forward" to justify the longer lead time.
- too many glitches (battery life, keyboard, etc.). Not deal-killers, but not up to Apple's usual high standards.
- and of course, the high prices.

This did not dissuade -me- from buying a new MacBook Pro.
However, after looking at the just-released 2016's, I weighed my options, and...
...bought the 2015 MBPro instead.

You disagree, but you do make my point. The points you raise are mostly subjective perceptions not supported by objective facts. As I explained above, by any objective standard, the new MBP is the most significant upgrade since the retina screen. The tales about poor battery life were mostly based on internet hysteria, not facts. Only the 13" with touch bar has had real battery problems; the others do better than their predecessors. The keyboard is actually quite popular, as I also pointed out. And I pointed out the real difference in price and what you get for it.

Who uses laptops all out without external power source? I don't know. Maybe people who use laptops the way they were meant to be used? As a mobile computers.

It's a fact that battery has gotten worse. Keep rationalizing your purchase.

Wow. First, as you must know, you took what I said out of context, twisting the clear meaning. And yet you accuse me of rationalizing. Most people are smart enough to know that any professional laptop will stop running quickly if run all out on battery. If that's what you do, then by all means get a laptop that will go for 90 minutes instead of only 60. That 30-minute difference must be important to you. But most people use the battery for lighter stuff, and for that, the MBP, as a matter of established fact, does better. Rationalize all you want, the facts will remain.

This confuses me somehow. All reviews by respectable media I am aware of (except the very controversial consumer reports one) have reported that the battery life of new models is better or at least on par with the old ones. What reviews were you looking at?

Even the CR tests now show the new MBPs have outstanding battery life.

 

[Ma2k5]

This confuses me somehow. All reviews by respectable media I am aware of (except the very controversial consumer reports one) have reported that the battery life of new models is better or at least on par with the old ones. What reviews were you looking at?

The battery was made smaller by a significant amount - they have managed to get similar battery results due to the new energy efficient displays using up to 30% less energy, combine this with sky-lake's efficiency and you might get around the 10 hour mark of battery life, possibly more on the 15", when doing light work, as youre whr rate will probably be between 5 and 10 whr. If you look at the test that Apple did to test the battery life, it is clear as day as to why that test is very favoured to work in this condition (with the display saving technology) - not saying Apple did that deliberately as it is probably the same test they do every year, but it is a happy coincidence none the less.

Due to the battery capacity being reduced by up to 40% depending on model, when the display is no longer the prime battery drain (e.g. if you are doing work which utilises the CPU/GPU), their is a huge discrepancy in battery life between the older and newer models - not just from my experience, but just logically speaking. If Apple displayed battery life estimates based on professional use, it will greatly favour the older models.

Also the function keys might be useless for some, but for coders/developers it definitely isn't - and even when you use the touch bar in F'key mode, it isn't the same and it isn't as efficient. There are also people who report that the bar should probably be raised slightly higher to avoid accidental clicks.

The touch pad is definitely too big for use in my opinion and many others, I wasn't able to find a use for such a large area - if you were doing professional work, you wouldn't even utilise it since you'll be using a mouse. I have noticed a lot of failure with rejection on this compared to my previous two MacBooks. It also had some 3 finger drag issues (which may or may not have been fixed). Don't get me started on the keyboard, I am not sure why people see this as an upgrade - people keep mentioning "wobble", yes the old keys wobble, doesn't mean it was bad or a defect, they functioned beautifully. The old MacBook keys were what other laptops were striving to reach but failed, a long with the trackpad. All I know is, if I was given the option to select the trackpad/keyboard on the new versions, I would have opted to keep them as the old version.

As for the saving grace? The super fast SSD. The display to be honest, didn't feel like much of an upgrade, I don't know if the energy saving of 30% has somehow affected the potential of the display.

I guess when you have the most significant redesign (I use that term loosely) in years, you expected more from Apple. Infact, I think Apple expected more - from some of the articles I've read over the months, they had a flexible battery technology that unfortunately wasn't ready, which would have meant that they were able to keep the previous battery capacity while having a thinner profile - that is something I would have got on board with. Imagine a 2016 trMBP with 99wh battery, that would have been something.

 

[Merode]

Wow. First, as you must know, you took what I said out of context, twisting the clear meaning. And yet you accuse me of rationalizing.

I have literally quoted your whole message regarding battery life.

Most people are smart enough to know that any professional laptop will stop running quickly if run all out on battery. If that's what you do, then by all means get a laptop that will go for 90 minutes instead of only 60. That 30-minute difference must be important to you. But most people use the battery for lighter stuff, and for that, the MBP, as a matter of established fact, does better. Rationalize all you want, the facts will remain.

I'm saying that larger battery is better than the small one. You reply the battery is going to last for a short period of time anyway. Do you see the problem here?

I'm done with this thread.

 

[ZapNZs]

I've come to like my 2016, but I agree that the value today is even less than it was before. I did not pay the full price for my 2016, and I don't know if I would because I think Windows-based PCs (and the OS itself) have become more competitive with Apple than before. Luckily, sales on Apple hardware seem to be coming more common, and this improves value. Obviously, this sort of assessment can't say much about long-term reliability, and this is an area where Apple has an established track record.

Lenovo and Asus are both doing a great job with value, innovation, and are actively taking steps to define their products as ones associated with outstanding customer service. At least Lenovo seems to be doing a great job preparing for the change in PC buying habits without alienating their traditional PC customers - which is arguably a great way to ensure continued expansion in many professional markets, especially with larger organizations.

Yes, and flash/SSD prices are a fraction of what they were in 2012 (first rMBP). 256GB on a $2400 notebook?

It's worth pointing out that Apple is still using MLC NAND, where as many consumer devices have moved to inferior and much cheaper TLC.

 

[WhiteWhaleHolyGrail]

I'm amazed these threads still escalate in this manner. To sum, one man's junk is another man's treasure and vice versa.

As some posters have noted, unless you try to remain objective when discussing the new MBPs, you're really just ardently sharing an opinion which is fine, until people start being disrespectful by labelling people as 'shills' and the like - why is this even acceptable on a discussion forum?

So much goes into people's perceptions of the MBP, including finances. You'll often see that criticism of the MBP is coupled with value for money judgements which is in itself a subjective exercise. For me, I bought the 15" inch for a pretty penny and have proceeded to enjoy it as the finest model I have had to date. I consider my money well spent and that's that. For others, the keyboard is bad and the battery is weak etc - that's unfortunate but it does not render the whole MBP 'faulty' as some suggest. The enduring popularity of the MBP says otherwise and I look forward to seeing how things translate into sales figures, further development of the TB and the widespread adoption of USB C .

As for the Apple apology, this was exclusively aimed at the Mac Pro - why are some of you trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here? The Mac was all but abandoned and Apple have explained that this is due to thermal issues that were insurmountable due to the machine's design. The MBP certainly has no such issues and will not going forward as its thermal management is exceptional.

Regarding the website - it's just PR people. It's controversial to slate established brands as it implies a sense of intregrity, the irony being that the Dells they speak so highly of are, in my experience, utterly woeful.

Do try to read between the lines and gather your own opinions and experiences of the MBP. You'll be far happier.

WWHG.

 

[Dave245]

I don't know what they'll do about it, but clearly its a vexing problem for them, otherwise why would they suddenly hold a media powwow with some bloggers to try a positive picture on their desire to produce macs that are aimed at professionals

The media interview was about the Mac Pro more than anything else, they did talk about the iMac as well, the MacBook Pro with Touch Bar was mentioned but it sounds like they are happy with it from what Phil Schiller said

"As you know we just did a major update to the MacBook Pro line. That's going very well. Customers absolutely love it. We've had a lot of customers buying them. Big numbers as I said 20 percent growth year over year, we are very proud of those products."

 

[leman]

Due to the battery capacity being reduced by up to 40% depending on model, when the display is no longer the prime battery drain (e.g. if you are doing work which utilises the CPU/GPU), their is a huge discrepancy in battery life between the older and newer models - not just from my experience, but just logically speaking. If Apple displayed battery life estimates based on professional use, it will greatly favour the older models.

First of all, real world usage for me and other people in my office show either no difference to the older models or improvements. In particular, I get about an hour or so more out of it (this is mixed usage which involves software development, prototyping of statistical models, data manipulation, server management etc.). Logically speaking, yes, the new model loses simply because of the lower battery capacity. At the same time, the new hardware is more energy efficient and quite honestly, if you are pushing your machine hard, it doesn't really matter whether you get 90 minutes or 70 minutes of running time. You'd need to use the plug in both cases.

Also the function keys might be useless for some, but for coders/developers it definitely isn't - and even when you use the touch bar in F'key mode, it isn't the same and it isn't as efficient.

As a coder/developer — what kind of software are you using that still uses F keys? I haven't used such a tool in years. At first, I was worried about the escape key, but in practice, the touchbar works well enough. While I don't find it particularly useful for coding, it is very nice for an occasional photo editing work and also presentations — the ability to choose colors etc. on the bar is a real time saver.

Imagine a 2016 trMBP with 99wh battery, that would have been something.

True, with 99wh battery and the same size, the laptop would definitively be more impressive. At the same time, one starts running into diminished effects at some point. For most people, what matters is having a full work day of charge or close to it. Basically, if I have a laptop that lasts 6 hours on a battery, I'll need to charge it up at some point before a typical work day is over. If my laptop has 9-10 hours of battery life, I don't have to worry about recharging during the day and only need to plug it in over night. However, if I have 14 hours of battery life, the practical effect is not that different — I still get my full working day and need to recharge in the evening if I want to get another full day. Of course, the 14 hours are nice to have, as they provide a healthy emergency buffer and allow you to be more flexible. But the relative practical value of those extra 4 hours is much lower than the value of going from 6 to 10 hours.

A disclaimer: please don't think that I am advocating lower battery sizes or anything similar. My point is simply that computer design requires one to make compromises. Its a very tricky balancing act where you need to consider the relative cost and benefit ratios of various aspects. And from this standpoint, I believe that Apple made some very reasonable decisions. They were able to maximise the portability without sacrificing the performance or the practical battery life. The laptop is pretty much a min-maxing act, where everything is designed to work exactly at the edge of the technical spec, while still working well.

 

[Sanpete]

Due to the battery capacity being reduced by up to 40% depending on model, when the display is no longer the prime battery drain (e.g. if you are doing work which utilises the CPU/GPU), their is a huge discrepancy in battery life between the older and newer models - not just from my experience, but just logically speaking. If Apple displayed battery life estimates based on professional use, it will greatly favour the older models.

The tests don't support this, as you express it, on two counts. First, even for a task like video editing, the new MBP 15" can sometimes outlast the 2015 model, perhaps in part because it runs more efficiently for that kind of task. Second, professional use isn't limited to high-energy use. Many professionals also have a lot of low-energy professional tasks for which they need a machine that will last through a long plane trip or work day.

Otherwise, I agree that the smaller battery does sometimes mean the new MBP gets worse battery life, but not in as many situations as you might assume.

if you were doing professional work, you wouldn't even utilise it since you'll be using a mouse.

You must be thinking of professional work at a desk. If you're away from that setting, the larger trackpad can be quite handy, as it makes larger gestures and less picking up of the finger possible, also finer control if you need it.

I have noticed a lot of failure with rejection on this compared to my previous two MacBooks. It also had some 3 finger drag issues (which may or may not have been fixed).

Some people have these issues and some don't. I haven't had trouble with either.

There are real issues with the new MBPs, some about subjective preferences and some more objective, so it's not for everyone. But it does represent a solid upgrade in many respects.

I have literally quoted your whole message regarding battery life.

I'm saying that larger battery is better than the small one. You reply the battery is going to last for a short period of time anyway. Do you see the problem here?

I'm done with this thread.

Figures. You quoted what I said and then, obviously, ignored most of it because it didn't fit your reply. Yes, that's taking the bit you replied to out of context. You're rationalizing.

No, you didn't merely say the battery is worse because it's smaller. You claimed I was wrong in saying the battery life is better. You're again rationalizing.

 

[Daniel L]

Well, sorry guys, but the fact that that magazine gave Lenovo 10/10 on innovation and 14/15 on design (while Apple got 7 and 13, respectively), already tells you everything you need to know.

Yes, I normally would question the magazine too but they've ranked Apple as #1 for the past 4 years so they're clearly not anti Apple or pro Lenovo.

 

[Sanpete]

I've come to like my 2016, but I agree that the value today is even less than it was before.

There have always been much more economical Windows alternative with the same or better specs, some with innovations of their own. This isn't new with Lenovo and Asus. How well Apple competes with that remains about the same, judging from sales.

Yes, I normally would question the magazine too but they've ranked Apple as #1 for the past 4 years so they're clearly not anti Apple or pro Lenovo.

It's not that they're anti-Apple, only flaky in their assessments. (I read a lot of their reviews when the new MBPs came out, and some of them made little sense, including in their measurements of technical things like color space, where they were sometimes outliers by a lot, so I'm ambivalent about their usefulness. At least they do some measurements!)

 

[NT1440]

Yes, I normally would question the magazine too but they've ranked Apple as #1 for the past 4 years so they're clearly not anti Apple or pro Lenovo.

I'm just wondering what "innovation" (seriously, that term is so devoid of meaning these days I don't know why it's still used) lenovo has brought to the table to get 10/10? It's a serious question, I really don't pay much attention to the PC world these days so I'm curious.

 

[Eason85]

I'm just wondering what "innovation" (seriously, that term is so devoid of meaning these days I don't know why it's still used) lenovo has brought to the table to get 10/10? It's a serious question, I really don't pay much attention to the PC world these days so I'm curious.

The Yoga 910, Yoga book, and yoga 720. ThinkPad X1 carbon, thinkpad x1 yoga.

 

[Harthag]

I've been a proud Apple to Razer Blade convert for about a year, but the fact that Razer is 3 spots behind Apple is laughable and I can't take this article seriously, lol. Worst customer support in the industry. Also the worst warranty in the industry (1 year, no option to extend). They shouldn't even be on this list. Support 15/20!? LOL! Should be 3/20. Warranty should be 1/5. Same thing with Asus support, it is a joke. I'd still place Lenovo at #1 and Apple at #2 based on the combination of factors. I hate the current iteration of MBP but any site that places Apple (far) behind Asus, and then Dell and HP is not credible in my mind.

 

[Eason85]

I've been a proud Apple to Razer Blade convert for about a year, but the fact that Razer is 3 spots behind Apple is laughable and I can't take this article seriously, lol. Worst customer support in the industry. Also the worst warranty in the industry (1 year, no option to extend). They shouldn't even be on this list. Support 15/20!? LOL! Should be 3/20. Warranty should be 1/5. Same thing with Asus support, it is a joke. I'd still place Lenovo at #1 and Apple at #2 based on the combination of factors. I hate the current iteration of MBP but any site that places Apple (far) behind Asus, and then Dell and HP is not credible in my mind.

Agreed 100% on Razer. A complete farce that it's on there. I've spent about 4k on razer garbage and it was 4k too much. Razer apes the absolute worst aspects of Apple while only paying lip service to Apple's good points. They are a truly reprehensible company for many reasons that I don't feel like elucidating on here.

 

[NT1440]

The Yoga 910, Yoga book, and yoga 720. ThinkPad X1 carbon, thinkpad x1 yoga.

Supporting all of these at work....what exactly is innovative about a years old 2 in 1 design?

Don't get me started on that X1....

 

[ugru]

Sorry bud, you are in the 10% minority: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/keyboard-poll-owners-only-please.2039905/page-2#post-24468901

It is awesome how biased people are. Now, because it agrees with your theory, suddenly Macrumors polls (156 voters) are indicative of reality? Confirmation bias at it's finest, especially after the dozens of threads and posts on the same forum by people lamenting keyboard failures and inability to adapt.

So, if now MacRumor's polls are to be considererd indicative and MacRumors voter base has become magically a significant sample, how do we have to consider this poll?

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...mbp-kaby-lake-cannonlake-coffee-lake.1984045/

Where off a sample of 1155 voters only 39% bought 2016 rMBP. The rest skipped it to buy a competitor's laptop or a 2015 one or are waiting for the 2017 one to decide if abandon Apple for good.
And all this not counting (because we do not have clear numbers) people who ordered and then returned it after the extended return period, this number has to be subctracted from that 39%.

All of a sudden, rumors that the MacPro (and iMac and MacMini) u-turn was determined by the spectacular faliure of rMBP 2016 sales can be seen under a completely different light....

You decide, either MacRumors voter base is a significant sample or it is not indicative of anything

 

[Eason85]

Supporting all of these at work....what exactly is innovative about a years old 2 in 1 design?

Don't get me started on that X1....

The reviews I've seen of the X1 carbon 5th gen say it's basically the pinnacle of mobile computing. "Almost perfect" etc. The yoga book is crap to use, but it's an innovative idea. The yoga 720 offers quad core and a gtx 1050 in a convertible form factor only a bit bigger than an xps 15. The first quad-core convertible with a dGPU. The Yoga 910 is certainly not the first 2-in-1, but it represents a very high level of refinement of the form-factor.

Oh, and most importantly: the other companies did basically **** all. Apple's TB (which I don't think is useful compared to fn keys, but again I'm a windows user and occasional gamer) came second and there was no other competition.