Apple drops from 1st place (2013-2016) to 5th place in Laptop Magazine

[GtrDude]

I returned my 2016 MacBook Pro because of the keyboard and got a Lenovo X1 Carbon.
I am sooooo happy I did. This keyboard is amazing. Just fantastic.
Plus the X1 is very light and has a perfect screen size.....for me.
I'm super happy I returned the MBP and got an X!. Have nothing negative to say about it.
Love the mouse, the trackpad and to be able to go between the two etc. etc.....

 

[Eason85]

I returned my 2016 MacBook Pro because of the keyboard and got a Lenovo X1 Carbon.
I am sooooo happy I did. This keyboard is amazing. Just fantastic.
Plus the X1 is very light and has a perfect screen size.....for me.
I'm super happy I returned the MBP and got an X!. Have nothing negative to say about it.
Love the mouse, the trackpad and to be able to go between the two etc. etc.....

Hah, never thought I'd see someone on a mac forum sing the praises of the holy TrackPoint (PBUI)

 

[NT1440]

The reviews I've seen of the X1 carbon 5th gen say it's basically the pinnacle of mobile computing. "Almost perfect" etc. The yoga book is crap to use, but it's an innovative idea. The yoga 720 offers quad core and a gtx 1050 in a convertible form factor only a bit bigger than an xps 15. The first quad-core convertible with a dGPU. The Yoga 910 is certainly not the first 2-in-1, but it represents a very high level of refinement of the form-factor.

Oh, and most importantly: the other companies did basically **** all. Apple's TB (which I don't think is useful compared to fn keys, but again I'm a windows user and occasional gamer) came second and there was no other competition.

Ah gotcha, well I guess refinement is really all we can ask for in the generic computer game at this point (still take issue with that being "innovation" as its just the same course we've been going down for years) until some game changers come along.

 

[T5BRICK]

Nonsense, unless you're referring to the 2015 MBP.

Of course I'm referring to the 2015 MBP. You know, the same 2015 model that you called out in the post that I quoted.

 

[Sanpete]

Confirmation bias at it's finest

What hilarious irony. As has been understood by everyone who cares for years, this place aggregates complaints, so the fact that there are numerous threads about something simply and obviously doesn't imply a majority of owners are having that issue. Thus the usefulness of a poll where those same people who complain can vote, but also those not complaining. And it's not the first one on this topic. All have shown the same thing, that most people like the new keyboard. And the comments about the keyboard in threads about show the same. But you'll believe whatever suits you, and ignore all contrary facts.

So, if now MacRumor's polls are to be considererd indicative and MacRumors voter base has become magically a significant sample, how do we have to consider this poll?

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...mbp-kaby-lake-cannonlake-coffee-lake.1984045/

Where off a sample of 1155 voters only 39% bought 2016 rMBP.

Just amazing. That's a very high percentage who upgraded, but you think the opposite! Do you really think that high a portion of people normally upgrade? Incredible.

Of course I'm referring to the 2015 MBP. You know, the same 2015 model that you called out in the post that I quoted.

Then you misunderstood (and I suspect those who agreed with you misunderstood your intent). I was comparing the price of the new 2016 to the price of the 2015 when it came out, not now. Now the 2015 is significantly cheaper.

 

[T5BRICK]

Then you misunderstood (and I suspect those who agreed with you misunderstood your intent). I was comparing the price of the new 2016 to the price of the 2015 when it came out, not now. Now the 2015 is significantly cheaper.

Incorrect. The base 2015 15" rMBP was released at $1999. The same computer is being sold at $1999.

 

[leman]

It is awesome how biased people are. Now, because it agrees with your theory, suddenly Macrumors polls (156 voters) are indicative of reality? Confirmation bias at it's finest, especially after the dozens of threads and posts on the same forum by people lamenting keyboard failures and inability to adapt.

I would never consider a Macrumors poll a good sample. In fact, its a terrible sample. However, combined with some context, it can be interesting. What the keyboard poll — which is a fairly recent poll btw, that was only started few weeks ago after most of the emotions have settled down and people had decent time to acclimatise with the machine — shows, is that there seems to be an interesting discrepancy between the vocal, harsh criticism of the keyboard on one side, and the mostly positive reactions to it in an anonymous poll. Note that the both observations apply to the same sample — the MacRumours forum user. Moreover, the trend established by this poll can be confirmed by a multitude of sources, some of them personal (like the experience of my coworkers, some of which were very skeptical about the keyboard in the beginning, or discussions with other people) some of them external (like how the discourse develops on various internet forums, product reviews on popular sites, etc.). What does it show us? Well, basically, that the notion of people hating the keyboard are greatly exaggerated. Nothing more, nothing less.

So, if now MacRumor's polls are to be considererd indicative and MacRumors voter base has become magically a significant sample, how do we have to consider this poll?

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...mbp-kaby-lake-cannonlake-coffee-lake.1984045/

Compared to the other poll, I can't really read much from this. This poll has been opened the same day as the new laptops were released. And it was a very emotional release. There were a lot of angry comments (funnily enough, many of them about Apple not using Kaby Lake, which was not even released at that point) and people getting very upset about USB-C, "thinnes" and whatever. I would like to see some historical data here, how the votes have developed over the time. The second thing is that I question the visibility of this poll in the first place. Its not in the thread called "will you buy the 2016 model". Its in the thread that was previously called "Waiting for Kaby Lake" and now is called "Waiting for 2017 model. For instance, I haven't voted in that thread until you gave me the link right now, and I am a fairly active user in the forum. Not to mention that the way the poll is set up is very odd — the author is clearly obsessed with the Kaby Lake CPUs (again, not even released at that point!!!). And finally, I find your interpretation of the results a bit weird. You write that 60% of the voters have "... skipped it to buy a competitor's laptop or a 2015 one or are waiting for the 2017 one to decide if abandon Apple for good". Why not "60% have decided that the laptop is too expensive for what it has to offer"? How many of those 60% have actually changed their mind? How many did buy a competitors machine? How many are still waiting?

So yeah, I find that poll much less interesting, based on the reasons above, but also based on the fact that we do have information about Apple's financial performance in regards to the 2016 models. Not only their Q4 2016/Q1 2017 financial reports indicate a significant boost in Mac sales, but we also have direct quotes from Apple managers claiming 20% increase of order volumes in comparison to the 2015 models. I also have some indirect confirmation of this from our supplier, which had a huge backlog on 2016 MBPs (they told me that they have never experienced such a strong demand for Apple laptop before).

 

[maflynn]

The reviews I've seen of the X1 carbon 5th gen say it's basically the pinnacle of mobile computing

I'll have to check them out, I know Lenovo has had a good reputation with the thinkpads

 

[Sanpete]

Incorrect. The base 2015 15" rMBP was released at $1999. The same computer is being sold at $1999.

I wasn't talking about the base model 2015, for which there is no 2016 equivalent, but where are you finding a new one at that price?

 

[pallymore]

I wasn't talking about the base model 2015, for which there is no 2016 equivalent, but where are you finding a new one at that price?

It's right here:
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MJLQ2LL/A&step=config#

They are still selling the same $1999 model (with same ports etc.) along with touch bar ones. You just have to scroll down a little bit on their website.

 

[No. 44]

You disagree, but you do make my point. The points you raise are mostly subjective perceptions not supported by objective facts. [...]

I like "objective facts" too.

Fact is: You joined this forum three weeks after the 2016 MBP was released.

Fact is: In this short time you've racked up a whopping 1,860 posts.

Fact is: That's 12.9 posts a day.

Fact is: In the vast majority of these 1,860 posts, you tirelessly browbeat, criticize and harangue anyone who doesn't share your opinion about the 2016 MBP. This thread (in which you already have 11 posts... ) is a perfect example.

 

[Newtons Apple]

pple lost me as a laptop customer. I had to use Bootcamp on them as my software does not do MAC, but I loved the quality of the hardware.

I bought the new Surface Book with performance base and all I can say is WOW! The build quality is every bit a s nice as a MacBook and it has ports!

 

[bopajuice]

Nonsense, unless you're referring to the 2015 MBP. Apple used the most up-to-date components available, which weren't available two years ago. Not an excuse, just a plain fact.

Really? The latest MBP is using the Kaby Lake processor? I did not know this.

 

[Sanpete]

It's right here:
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MJLQ2LL/A&step=config#

They are still selling the same $1999 model (with same ports etc.) along with touch bar ones. You just have to scroll down a little bit on their website.

Thanks, I see it on the main MBP buy page. So @T5BRICK's point must have been that the 2015 was overpriced too. But the post I was responding to was about preferring the 2015, while describing the 2016 as expensive, so my point comparing the prices still applies. Glad we sorted that out. (And I'm pretty sure now that those who agreed with T5BRICK's post completely missed the point it was making.)

Fact is: In the vast majority of these 1,860 posts, you tirelessly browbeat, criticize and harangue anyone who doesn't share your opinion about the 2016 MBP. This thread (in which you already have 11 posts... ) is a perfect example.

Obviously you don't really like facts, or you wouldn't distort them so. I don't object to those with a different view of the MBP. I object to those who just make stuff up about it. (And as any honest person can see, I also post about a great many other issues regarding the MBP, many not positive.)

Really? The latest MBP is using the Kaby Lake processor? I did not know this.

Obviously Kaby Lake wasn't available when the new MBP came out. I hope you did know that.

 

[ugru]

I find your interpretation of the results a bit weird. You write that 60% of the voters have "... skipped it to buy a competitor's laptop or a 2015 one or are waiting for the 2017 one to decide if abandon Apple for good". Why not "60% have decided that the laptop is too expensive for what it has to offer"?

They did not buy it, that was the relevant datum.

Yes, they could have changed their mind, but also the 39% could have, and from the flood of complaints about: battery life, keyboard, GPU glitches, popping speakers, poor quality control, and so on I suspect return rate was very high. People even returned it multiple times and then gave up.

And finally, the votes on the poll could be changed...

We do have information about Apple's financial performance in regards to the 2016 models. Not only their Q4 2016/Q1 2017 financial reports indicate a significant boost in Mac sales, but we also have direct quotes from Apple managers claiming 20% increase of order volumes in comparison to the 2015 models. I also have some indirect confirmation of this from our supplier, which had a huge backlog on 2016 MBPs (they told me that they have never experienced such a strong demand for Apple laptop before).

20% Boost in aggregated rMBP sales, we do not know how many 2016 and how many 2015 they sold.
It was 20% in comparison to 2015 sales, not 2015 models. And furthermore it was said from the marketing division of Apple...

So, a "contact of yours who knows things" told you so...must be true...then ask your source how many returns they had.

We have other uncorroborated sources, on the other hand, that report that as soon as the 2016 was out the sales of 2015 ones skyrocketed...where's the truth?

 

[Sanpete]

We have other uncorroborated sources, on the other hand, that report that as soon as the 2016 was out the sales of 2015 ones skyrocketed...where's the truth?

Both could be true, that the new MBP sales are great and that the 2015 sales, which were no doubt slow, went way up too. But Schiller very clearly implied at least the former.

Again, that 39% figure in the poll is very high for people who decided to upgrade.

 

[leman]

20% Boost in aggregated rMBP sales, we do not know how many 2016 and how many 2015 they sold.
It was 20% in comparison to 2015 sales, not 2015 models. And furthermore it was said from the marketing division of Apple...

All true, but altogether, given the fact that the Mac revenue has actually increased AND the fact that Apple only sells a single basic 2015 15" MBP, I don't think one has a very good basis on arguing that the 2016 MBP is a sales flop. One can't really explain the increased revenue only with sales of a single watered-down 2015 model...

We have other uncorroborated sources, on the other hand, that report that as soon as the 2016 was out the sales of 2015 ones skyrocketed...

Of course they skyrocketed! Many people wait for an update to get a discounted price on the previous gen. This has always been true. The relevant question here is the ratio of 2015 to 2016 sales.

where's the truth?

Well, the truth is somewhere out there, but I doubt that you or me have enough information to access it. But by adding together multiple independent sources, I think one can reconstruct much of what is happening.

 

[bopajuice]

Thanks, I see it on the main MBP buy page. So @T5BRICK's point must have been that the 2015 was overpriced too. But the post I was responding to was about preferring the 2015, while describing the 2016 as expensive, so my point comparing the prices still applies. Glad we sorted that out. (And I'm pretty sure now that those who agreed with T5BRICK's post completely missed the point it was making.)


Obviously you don't really like facts, or you wouldn't distort them so. I don't object to those with a different view of the MBP. I object to those who just make stuff up about it. (And as any honest person can see, I also post about a great many other issues regarding the MBP, many not positive.)


Obviously Kaby Lake wasn't available when the new MBP came out. I hope you did know that.

I thought it came out in October or thereabouts, before the MBP was released no?

Point being when I was shopping for laptops in December 2016 there were Kaby Lake offerings, but not from Apple.

 

[ugru]

All true, but altogether, given the fact that the Mac revenue has actually increased AND the fact that Apple only sells a single basic 2015 15" MBP, I don't think one has a very good basis on arguing that the 2016 MBP is a sales flop. One can't really explain the increased revenue only with sales of a single watered-down 2015 model...

A single basic 2015 and refurbished 2015s which I bet count as 2016 sales (of a 2015 model).

Of course they skyrocketed! Many people wait for an update to get a discounted price on the previous gen. This has always been true. The relevant question here is the ratio of 2015 to 2016 sales.

I bet people bought refurbished 2015 not because they costed less....we need disaggregated data, which Apple will never release.

 

[Sanpete]

I thought it came out in October or thereabouts, before the MBP was released no?

Point being when I was shopping for laptops in December 2016 there were Kaby Lake offerings, but not from Apple.

Yes, there were Kaby Lake chips for some low-powered laptops by then, but not for MBPs. Apple used the latest Intel could supply.

 

[T5BRICK]

Thanks, I see it on the main MBP buy page. So @T5BRICK's point must have been that the 2015 was overpriced too. But the post I was responding to was about preferring the 2015, while describing the 2016 as expensive, so my point comparing the prices still applies. Glad we sorted that out. (And I'm pretty sure now that those who agreed with T5BRICK's post completely missed the point it was making.)

My point is that your comparison is flawed(which I stated in my very first post in this thread).

After seeing the rest of your posts in this thread and others, I can tell that you're just going to ignore logic and facts and continue to tell everyone how great the 2016 rMBP is and how it isn't overpriced. Have fun with that.

 

[Sanpete]

My point is that your comparison is flawed(which I stated in my very first post in this thread).

No, I just explained why the comparison is exactly to the point I was responding to. Which you entirely ignored. How ironic.

After seeing the rest of your posts in this thread and others, I can tell that you're just going to ignore logic and facts and continue to tell everyone how great the 2016 rMBP is and how it isn't overpriced. Have fun with that.

Empty hand waving, now that your error has been made clear.

 

[leman]

Point being when I was shopping for laptops in December 2016 there were Kaby Lake offerings, but not from Apple.

Yes, there were low-tier 15W chips — basically MacBook Air class CPU — which are now widely used in premium laptops such as Surface Book or Dell XPS 13 to save money and get longer battery life. Irony: Apple was heavily criticised for pioneering low-voltage CPUs in the MacBook Air. People were complaining about using slow CPUs in expensive computers. Not a decade after: people happily fall victim to marketing and buy expensive laptops with same type of low-power CPUs and then actually complain that Apple continues to offer higher-power CPUs in their premium laptop range.
[doublepost=1491945539][/doublepost]

A single basic 2015 and refurbished 2015s which I bet count as 2016 sales (of a 2015 model).

Do you really want to argue that refurb 2015 models caused a spike in Apple's revenue? I am very skeptical indeed. A much more likely scenario would be people jumping ship. Anyway, my point is that if people were not buying the 2016 models, there is no way that we would see such massive revenue growth. But here we are of course in the realm of speculation and your theory is as possible as mine.

 

[thesaint024]

JHC, who cares. I've read lots of "reputable" mags that say Apple sucks all around. All it takes is one viewpoint. If you need these sources to make purchase decisions for you, then that's on you.

 

[JMacHack]

I'm willing to accept that Apple's QA is hit-and-miss since many people are reporting problems, and I'm willing to accept the criticisms about the un-upgradeable parts.

I can also understand that many don't like the new keyboard and many who used the function keys would like to have them, but those are more opinions.

But some of the arguments don't make any sense to me honestly. I'm typing this on a 2016 15" tbMBP right now, and I'm loving it since I got it in February. Even the most controversial part, the touch bar, has grown on me significantly since getting better touch tool (which, the kind of touch bar customization should've come standard Imo).

I like having the large touchpad, since a big part of my workflow involves using gestures to flip between screens, and the touch gestures makes zooming/panning in illustrator and photoshop MUCH more intuitive and quicker.