Apple Employees Increasingly Content to Criticize the Company Amid Switch Remote Working and Use of Slack

[dukebound85]

I must push back on this. There is absolutely no indication that wfh is intrinsically healthier, especially on the mental health side. The lack of full human interaction is actually correlated to depression, anxiety and more.

Here is an indication.....I no longer waste 2 hrs/day dealing with commuting and not having to deal with people randomly interrupting my work by walking into my workspace routinely

 

[Ethosik]

Again there's no talking to you because you keep deflecting words.

Oh now you're changing it to unreasonable? Earlier you stated Apple was treating people horribly.

This is where you're wrong. It wasn't a decided transition. The world had a deadly disease and people were forced out of the workplace until things got under control where people can return to the work site. Remember the world was quarantined? Even the news media was doing the news out of their living room. They've all gotten back to the newsroom. Why not continue doing the news from their living room?

Also I like how you ignored my question when I asked you about other Apple employees who can't work from home such as the Apple Store employees. Apple Store management. Apple logistics. You completely ignored all of that. They were all quarantined as well and had to go unemployment that paid them less money while these other people you're "fighting" for worked from home and got the same pay.

Oh really what does Apple specifically state? I asked you this and also deflected the question.

I said the statement Apple released was unreasonable. I still do find Apple treating their employees horribly, and even some on this site are the same "shut up and get back to work" is a common thread around here and its quite frustrating. You do realize that working from home is still......work right? If you have some employee that is just watching netflix all day, then cut that employee. It does mean all people working from home does that. When I work I work. I rarely even answer texts in a quick time because I want to work not just sit there.

I am not saying every and all positions in the entire world are suitable for working from home. But a software engineer, or customer service? Sorry but after 15+ years of being shoved in a small cubicle and being distracted every....single....day with idle chatter in the office I just don't want to go back.

Janitors, hospital workers, restaurant workers, store employees factory workers and more, they cannot do work from home so obviously they cannot quality for remote work.

 

[Ethosik]

Here is an indication.....I no longer waste 2 hrs/day dealing with commuting and not having to deal with people randomly interrupting my work by walking into my workspace routinely

Agreed. Also, it gives me the freedom to go for a walk during lunch where I would not even think about doing that in the office since I don't want to work the second half of my day all sweaty.

I no longer get pressured from co-workers to go out to eat every single day so my lunches are indeed healthier.

 

[dukebound85]

It’s more about being fed up with privileged people acting like their life is so tough and whining about every little thing.

no, it is about workers seeing WFH working, and working well, for the last 18 months and now see "required" on site attendance to be a meaningless requirement to get their work done

 

[DoubleJ2119]

Deleted.

 

[Ethosik]

Sounds like a problem you could fix by moving closer to your job location, or switching to a closer job site. You could also communicate to your coworkers regarding when you prefer to focus on your work.

In the end, the employer makes the decision of what roles should be allowed to stay at home. The evidence suggests that most workers are less productive when working from home though, even if they feel more productive.

Open office space limits how effective you want to remain focused. I have had discussions many....many times with my fellow cube-mates to not talk about football, or movies, or TV shows for literally an hour and a half every single day but they continue to do so!

And stats tells all that needs to tell. Pre-COVID I was handling about 1-2 user stories a sprint now I am getting about 4.3 done on average a sprint. So pretty much double my productivity. Also, the company gains the time I would have spent in the car, so I am technically working 9.5 hour days instead of 8.

 

[I7guy]

They state their entire culture is in-office work don't they? So why even offer remote work even pre-COVID? Wait, I thought they needed in-office work to be effective. That is where the contradiction occurs.

Not only could not you provide some perspective on your opinions, but you took a general statement and made it all or nothing…as if there wasn’t any middle ground anywhere.

 

[Ethosik]

Not only could you provide some perspective on your opinions, but you took a general statement and made it all or nothing…as if there wasn’t any middle ground anywhere.

I am not sure what you mean here? You said there is no contradiction, I explained to you why there is.

So lets see if I can state this another way. What is Apple's reason for wanting people to come back to the office? Their official stated reason is because their culture is in-office working right? Well then why even offer remote work in the first place? Remember I am discussing pre-covid positions that were remote. If their company culture is that dependent on in-office work, then why even have remote work opportunities in the first place? That is a clear contradiction with the company's stated culture. And some are fairly high level positions.

 

[Maconplasma]

Well then why even offer remote work in the first place? Remember I am discussing pre-covid positions that were remote. If their company culture is that dependent on in-office work, then why even have remote work opportunities in the first place? That is a clear contradiction with the company's stated culture. And some are fairly high level positions.

And that is exactly why I asked you that question earlier and you keep deflecting it and rambling on to something else. I'll ask again, (but I already know what I'm going to get back from you) did Apple state that ALL employees whether worked remotely before COVID as well as prior in-office employees must now reside work from the Apple Campus or wherever their work site was outside of the home?

"I am not saying every and all positions in the entire world are suitable for working from home. But a software engineer, or customer service?"

Back to Apple employees since I was never talking about restaurants, hospitals or janitors 🙄, how do you think Apple store employees, long-time store management feel about software engineers getting special treatment? Are software engineers suddenly more important than store management or Apple logistics? If said software engineer was already a WFH employee before COVID then there's no argument. We're talking about people who weren't working from home before COVID. Getting special treatment because they whined like a child about it creates animosity within the company, and that would for sure be discrimination.

 

[DoubleJ2119]

Deleted.

 

[Ethosik]

And that is exactly why I asked you that question earlier and you keep deflecting it and rambling on to something else. I'll ask again, (but I already know what I'm going to get back from you) did Apple state that ALL employees whether worked remotely before COVID as well as prior in-office employees must now reside work from the Apple Campus or wherever their work site was outside of the home?

"I am not saying every and all positions in the entire world are suitable for working from home. But a software engineer, or customer service?"

Back to Apple employees since I was never talking about restaurants, hospitals or janitors 🙄, how do you think Apple store employees, long-time store management feel about software engineers getting special treatment? Are software engineers suddenly more important than store management or Apple logistics? If said software engineer was already a WFH employee before COVID then there's no argument. We're talking about people who weren't working from home before COVID. Getting special treatment because they whined like a child about it creates animosity within the company, and that would for sure be discrimination.

Again, I never stated that Apple requires all employees back to the office, even if they were work from home otherwise. Where have I stated this? I cannot explain because I never said so! I am only discussing those that transitioned to work from home due to covid, I am not discussing the work from home pre-covid. But the pre-covid work from home does cause a contradiction in Apple's statement that their entire business is in-office collaborative when it in fact is not. Plenty of positions were remote before covid.

And really special treatment? I can get the job done no matter where I am. Its no special treatment, its just how I can fulfill my job. Janitors, restaurant workers and more cannot do this. I don't think its fair to call work from home special treatment. Is it special treatment that as a senior software developer I get six figured by the janitor in the office does not? Is it special treatment that my doctor gets 7 figures where I can only get 6? Different jobs have different needs and requirements. Software developers can do their work offsite. Sorry to say, not every job has that ability. In no way is that special treatment.

 

[Ethosik]

Like I said, I think particular roles and employees may be more productive working from home. I’m not very familiar with your line of work, but usually employers care not just about pure output quantity but also the quality of that output. In no way am I suggesting that the quality of your work has decreased, but one can imagine a scenario where employees “unhindered” so to speak from discussions and ideas from coworkers about their work may be producing more but also producing an inferior product.

It sounds like your particular office coworkers are not very serious about their work and therefore you could be producing more and higher quality work by working from home. This may also be a more fruitful policy for your employer.

I was actually producing less quality of work and less amount of work in the office. Again, I have my stats that show otherwise on both accounts. Higher quality and higher output.

 

[DoubleJ2119]

Deleted.

 

[Ethosik]

I don’t doubt you.

Nonetheless, all the big tech companies have internal performance systems that track employee productivity and it seems nonsensical to me that Apple would be so eager to get employees back in the office if their internal performance data indicated increased or flat productivity for remote working as a whole for their business.

I don't know what I have, I don't think its actually ADD but I have never been tested. I also have a Math major and if I sit here trying to do 2+3+1+2+5+9 and you know just basic math, and you are just standing right next to me talking about a movie you saw last night, I can't add the numbers! This is why open office space, at least at my office where people are so ridiculously chatty kill my productivity.

 

[Maconplasma]

Again, I never stated that Apple requires all employees back to the office, even if they were work from home otherwise. Where have I stated this?

I never said you did. Stop saying that over and over. I only asked you a question. It requires a yes or no answer. Simple as that. You keep deflecting questions and it's only because you don't want to answer. I got it now.

And really special treatment? I can get the job done no matter where I am.

This isn't about you.....or is it? I'm talking about the Apple employees as a whole in regards to this article. If this is about you then we're finished talking. You need to be talking to Apple. Also I thought Apple employees were not allowed to have accounts on MR? I read that a few times here.

Its no special treatment, its just how I can fulfill my job.

So it is about you?

Janitors, restaurant workers and more cannot do this.

Once again deflecting questions. I only talked about Apple employees. You keep talking about other jobs that are not about Apple. SMH.

I don't think its fair to call work from home special treatment.

It's absolutely special treatment when said worker didn't work from home before COVID. When other Apple employees can't do it then it is for sure special treatment and that's absolutely unfair to others who work for the company.

Is it special treatment that as a senior software developer I get six figured by the janitor in the office does not?

Once again you keep bringing up employment that has nothing to do with Apple.

Is it special treatment that my doctor gets 7 figures where I can only get 6?

Another job that has nothing to do with Apple. SMH.

Software developers can do their work offsite.

If they weren't doing it off-site in the first place then if they get to do so after whining like a child on social media and blasting the company then that is special treatment. End of story. Speaking of end of story. I'm finished talking to you because you deflect questions and there's no talking to you. Don't forget it was you that replied to my post from several days ago. If you're going to do that then you need to be open to a reasonable discussion and not deflect questions to your advantage. Have a good day.

 

[ipponrg]

And stats tells all that needs to tell. Pre-COVID I was handling about 1-2 user stories a sprint now I am getting about 4.3 done on average a sprint. So pretty much double my productivity. Also, the company gains the time I would have spent in the car, so I am technically working 9.5 hour days instead of 8.

I don't think anyone here is questioning your productivity. However, it's erroneous to assume that the results of your anecdote is the solution for every company.

I don't know what I have, I don't think its actually ADD but I have never been tested. I also have a Math major and if I sit here trying to do 2+3+1+2+5+9 and you know just basic math, and you are just standing right next to me talking about a movie you saw last night, I can't add the numbers! This is why open office space, at least at my office where people are so ridiculously chatty kill my productivity.

I think that's just you lacking the confidence to ask your coworkers to come back later.

I'll trade you your anecdote for mine. As a software engineer of 20+ years, I'm fine with open office space. I've worked in all kinds of environments, and when I do need to think, the bustle gets tuned out with earbuds. Just about every engineer has their "tricks" to find their quiet zone. Yours just happens to be working remotely away from people.

 

[Ethosik]

I never said you did. Stop saying that over and over. I only asked you a question. It requires a yes or no answer. Simple as that. You keep deflecting questions and it's only because you don't want to answer. I got it now.

This isn't about you.....or is it? I'm talking about the Apple employees as a whole in regards to this article. If this is about you then we're finished talking. You need to be talking to Apple. Also I thought Apple employees were not allowed to have accounts on MR? I read that a few times here.

So it is about you?

Once again deflecting questions. I only talked about Apple employees. You keep talking about other jobs that are not about Apple. SMH.

It's absolutely special treatment when said worker didn't work from home before COVID. When other Apple employees can't do it then it is for sure special treatment and that's absolutely unfair to others who work for the company.

Once again you keep bringing up employment that has nothing to do with Apple.

Another job that has nothing to do with Apple. SMH.

If they weren't doing it off-site in the first place then if they get to do so after whining like a child on social media and blasting the company then that is special treatment. End of story. Speaking of end of story. I'm finished talking to you because you deflect questions and there's no talking to you. Don't forget it was you that replied to my post from several days ago. If you're going to do that then you need to be open to a reasonable discussion and not deflect questions to your advantage. Have a good day.

You are the one that said software developers get special treatment working from home. Haven't you heard of examples before? I am giving you examples of positions that absolutely cannot under any circumstances work from home.....period. You think Apple's janitors can work from home?! But how is letting software engineers work from home be considered special treatment?!

You are talking about Apple employees as a whole, and you know what makes up part of those employees? Software engineers, designers, customer service and those people. They can all do their work from home. Where did I say its about me? Again, I am offering an example - software engineer. Being a senior software engineer, I can speak more to the topic that say a graphical designer.

So no, I am not talking about me, but offering examples.

 

[Ethosik]

I think that's just you lacking the confidence to ask your coworkers to come back later.

I have, I said I cannot work well when someone is not even talking to me, but talking to my cube-mate about football, or movies or TV shows. And I have repeatedly asked for them to stop, but they do not. They literally talk for an hour and a half every day. And that is not including lunch time! Seriously, get back to work and stop talking! I have dealt with this issue in two jobs now, open office spaces are generally bad for this kind of thing. And a friend of mine who works for another company is known to just walk around talking to people. I always give him a hard time for it because I am sure there are people around him that have trouble working when he is just chatting away.

 

[I7guy]

I am not sure what you mean here? You said there is no contradiction, I explained to you why there is.

So lets see if I can state this another way. What is Apple's reason for wanting people to come back to the office? Their official stated reason is because their culture is in-office working right? Well then why even offer remote work in the first place? Remember I am discussing pre-covid positions that were remote. If their company culture is that dependent on in-office work, then why even have remote work opportunities in the first place? That is a clear contradiction with the company's stated culture. And some are fairly high level positions.

Post is confusing. Having an in office culture doesn’t mean that there aren’t exceptions and policies to allow flexibility.

What metrics Apple has is anyone’s guess. But Apple as well as other Fortune 500 companies have been operating in lockdown and imo, people’s thinking need to be reset.

 

[Ethosik]

Post is confusing. Having an in office culture doesn’t mean that there aren’t exceptions and policies to allow flexibility.

What metrics Apple has is anyone’s guess. But Apple as well as other Fortune 500 companies have been operating in lockdown and imo, people’s thinking need to be reset.

Sorry I didn't mean for it to be confusing! There was actually quite a lot of remote positions available 4 years ago when I looked at Apple's job listings. So it doesn't seem to be exceptions.

 

[Maconplasma]

You are the one that said software developers get special treatment working from home.

Just to make sure that people know what you're saying is incorrect because you're making stuff up I will restate what I actually said. I said if the software developer wasn't working from home before COVID and goes on social media to whine like a child and bash the company and the company gives in to stop the whining then that software engineer is getting special treatment. If that software engineer worked from home in the first place before COVID then there's no argument.
You can ignore and deflect questions all you want but don't make up stuff that I never said.

So no, I am not talking about me, but offering examples.

Oh yes you were because you kept referring to yourself in nearly every example as if this affects you. You also took everything I said personally as if it was about you. If it's not about you then you need to respect other's opinions. But here's what said in regards to yourself:.

"And really special treatment? I can get the job done no matter where I am. Its no special treatment,"

"And I go to work to actually work, not discuss football or get distracted by the next door cubicle discussing football. I WANT TO WORK....not be distracted. Working at home solves these issues."

"So because I get a paycheck that is an excuse to be treated horribly? That give Activision Blizzard the excuse to do what they did?"

 

[Ethosik]

Just to make sure that people know what you're saying is incorrect because you're making stuff up I will restate what I actually said. I said if the software developer wasn't working from home before COVID and goes on social media to whine like a child and bash the company and the company gives in to stop the whining then that software engineer is getting special treatment. If that software engineer worked from home in the first place before COVID then there's no argument.
You can ignore and deflect questions all you want but don't make up stuff that I never said.

Oh yes you were because you kept referring to yourself in nearly every example as if this affects you. You also took everything I said personally as if it was about you. If it's not about you then you need to respect other's opinions. But here's what said in regards to yourself:.

"And really special treatment? I can get the job done no matter where I am. Its no special treatment,"

"And I go to work to actually work, not discuss football or get distracted by the next door cubicle discussing football. I WANT TO WORK....not be distracted. Working at home solves these issues."

"So because I get a paycheck that is an excuse to be treated horribly? That give Activision Blizzard the excuse to do what they did?"

Again, being a software engineer I am speaking to a software engineer. I cannot speak for graphic designers or others. So no its not really about me. Would you rather me spout nonsense about Photoshop instead? I can get work done faster and more efficient was speaking in regards of my type of job - software engineer.

And even if I was talking about just me, does that mean I am the only person on the entire planet that can accomplish this? I have proven that working from home has significant benefits. And actually many members of our team have had the same level of increased productivity. So no, its not just me. But I can only speak from experience so sometimes I need to state things that I have done.

 

[dukebound85]

Sounds like a problem you could fix by moving closer to your job location, or switching to a closer job site. You could also communicate to your coworkers regarding when you prefer to focus on your work.

Sounds like working remotely is the easier solution.

Thankfully my employer agrees.

 

[DoubleJ2119]

Deleted.

 

[dukebound85]

Depending on the individual and their job, perhaps. For many, if not most people, remote working is damaging to mental health and cumbersome for communication. I’m an introvert and even my mental health has suffered due to the lack of human-to-human contact in my daily life during the pandemic.

Humans unfortunately have selective amnesia and place little value on the ideas of other humans, even though we are indebted to other humans’ ideas on a daily basis. Reducing the friction involved in spreading ideas by having adults sit next to each other free of distractions from kids and odd social interactions due to computer cameras and microphones not accurately recreating how we interact can do wonders for innovation and productivity.

And I disagree with you as well as your assumptions