Apple Employees Reportedly Petitioning Against Plan to Return to Office 3x Per Week

[haydn!]

Apple should simply use this as an opportunity to streamline their office portfolio. Despite Apple Park, the still occupy infinite loop right and a tonne of other smaller spaces across Cupertino. Close them and relocate everyone to Apple Park. That way; even if staff are only using the space 1-2 a week on average; you’re getting better value for square foot.

 

[mikethemartian]

I know this seems weirdly controversial now - and ive no idea why...

But this strikes me as utterly entitled and ridiculous behaviour.

Firstly..... 3 times a week? is that all?? more than generous of apple.
Secondly.... like it or not there are some roles where collaboration is needed, and not in zoom meetings and the like - theres no substitute to face to face interaction. I wonder out loud how much better iOS 15 could have been and iOS16 too.... (though I accept that might just be nonsense)

Thirdly, and HERES THE MAIN ONE...... Each and every employee went to a job interview..... and accepted the job based on where they lived, the commute, the office they were working in... etc etc. Just because its nicer and cheaper not to commute does not mean they now have the right to demand a change in their working conditions... THEY took the job on knowing full well what it entailed..... Covid was a temporary and unprecedented problem and its time to get back to normal like it or not.

The easy answer is if you dont like you job or working conditions (and only 3 days a week in the office which is much better than you had when you took the job on) then simply resign. Stop wasting time and energy with petitions etc - your employer is well within their rights to mandate working arrangements like this and if your office job requires you to be in the office then get in there or move aside and give one of the many thousands out there who would love your job the opportunity to do it and work from that amazing Apple Park location (id love to work there!).

Most of them are “at will“ employees and not contracted so they can change the deal they made at any time just like the company can.

 

[crees!]

Like almost every group these days, their name is the oppose of their actions. We can change the title of this piece to “The group Apple Together promotes being apart”.

 

[pavelbure]

The iPad that is manufactured in China? It has nothing to do with people working at home. There are major chip shortages. And somehow, I dout that people working on the hardware side are working from home, and they only stop working in the office for a short period in 2020.

You know what iPad os is right ? Sounds like you don’t. It’s the operating system.

A lot of their employees can’t work from home, so it’s very discriminatory to allow some to work from home and not others. Especially when they were hired knowing they would have to drive to an office for work.

 

[citysnaps]

Just let the people go who are not happy with Apple's employment requirements.

Only Apple has the big picture insight as to what's necessary to efficiently conduct company operations that meet the company's needs.

People offering anecdotal comments about the particular company they work for has no relevancy to Apple's needs.

 

[H2SO4]

Curious, and not trying to get int a flame war. Sometimes I like to hear why someone else has an opinion different from mine especially when that opinion seems ridiculous to me
For anybody that agrees with the employees that Apple is being unreasonable, fancy putting forward why you or they might see it that way?

 

[Isengardtom]

WFH is not free if it reduces the company's productivity. I think, at least for many workers, there is evidence that it does.

link to this “evidence”??
Until I see it from a reliable independent source I call BS on these kinds of statements.

It’s clearly not for everybody (I actually prefer to work from the office, my colleagues don’t). Many though are actually more productive. It all depends on what job you do, the commute you have to do, how well you can work together from a distance and your own mindset.

You can easily monitor people that are less productive and assuming they are, you could face them with that fact and adjust accordingly. No need to punish everyone else.

Our own CEO and the rest of the higher management went from being sceptical on WFH to being the biggest supporters of the concept. Our company introduced a hybrid with 3 days Office, 2 days from home and that’s here to stay.

 

[TruthWatcher412]

I work from home every day. It was one day per week pre-pandemic. Honestly, I wouldn't mind going back in once or twice a week. It'd be nice to see my coworkers face to face instead of just over Teams all day.

It definitely was nice since my daughter was born in 2020 so I got to see her and spend a ton of time with her while at home. And now still I get a lot of time with her. She goes to daycare a few days because we both work full time so I wouldn't be missing out going back in a few days.

 

[H2SO4]

I don't work at Apple, but I think every employer to some degree faces this discussion at the moment.

Before the pandemic hit we'd all just taken for granted that we need to commute and go to an office 4 or 5 days per week. Then we were all forced to live an alternative and overall it just worked. I spend significantly less time and money on public transport. For me that works out to two additional hours I can spend on something I actually enjoy.

Our productivity did not go down over the pandemic, but that's not to say that there aren't things that work better in person. Ideally you want the flexibility to go in when needed, and work from home when you don't. Instead it often seems the push back to work is driven by a desire to not waste the corporate lease.

Why is that not a good enough reason?
If somebody has invested in you and you decide you want a change surely they have the right to feel miffed that even though you agreed to the terms you are deciding not to abide by them?

 

[WWPD]

Where's Lumbergh when you need him? He would put these upstarts in their place.

 

[madrigal77]

This is what happens in a culture where no one is ever told “no”. If they ever are, they can’t handle it and cry and stomp their feet like a 5 year old. You are adults people!! Act like it. Pathetic.

 

[NARadyk]

I don't work at Apple, but I think every employer to some degree faces this discussion at the moment.

Before the pandemic hit we'd all just taken for granted that we need to commute and go to an office 4 or 5 days per week. Then we were all forced to live an alternative and overall it just worked. I spend significantly less time and money on public transport. For me that works out to two additional hours I can spend on something I actually enjoy.

Our productivity did not go down over the pandemic, but that's not to say that there aren't things that work better in person. Ideally you want the flexibility to go in when needed, and work from home when you don't. Instead it often seems the push back to work is driven by a desire to not waste the corporate lease.

I think this post hits the nail on the head.

It appears to be a return to office for the sake of it rather than any actual benefit of it. When something is required or would work better for you to be in the office then go in and in some weeks that may be more than others depending on the work you’re doing at the time but to have a mandatory amount of days for the sake of it just seems illogical to me.

 

[stocklen]

I agree, but think Apple could increase WFH to 3 days. I feel that for a tech company, 2 days WFH isn’t particular generous. Apple literally creates products that enable online meeting and collaborative work. 🤪 Believe in your people, as well as your product.

Some people say WFH “productivity” has gone up, which was supposedly true at the very beginning of WFH, but may not be true anymore as WFH continued. Either way, there are aspects of project and team work that may be decreasing in quality over time that would be hard to measure at this point.

Are there mental health issues, especially for new employees and graduates who may never feel like part of the company, or part of a team? Does this reduce retention, physical health, or mental health? Sick days? Other things?

Is it “productive” that you can work on a “team” with someone, right now and for many years into the future, but not know anything about them as humans?

Would productivity improve if you KNEW and LIKED others on your team?

I doubt WFH affects teamwork in financial settings as much as it does in engineering settings. I work in a hospital, and WFH would absolutely work for many people if it was 3 days per week, but in-person for 2.

I find it genuinely fascinating how many have both liked, and disliked my original comment.

I didnt comment to be controversial, more that I didnt understand the depth of resentment at having to return to the way you were working when you took on the role in the first place.

Also, as ive also mentioned... I suspect that many who are reluctant to return to the office have maybe been in the job for a long time....
But again consider this... a new member of staff just starting out.... what will be waiting for them at the office... nothing? nobody? who will train them... how will they develop a sense of belonging at the company without forging relationships with their co-workers...who is on-hand when they need some help and advice... Are they expected to be part of a team? - how will this this work? How will this new starter feel if nobody else wants to be there to help them out and welcome them to the job and environment...
I can see this being catastrophically destructive to the workplace as we know it.
As it is, the new starter will be on their own for 2 days a week!

Of course, there are some office jobs where the "go into the office for the workday" paradigm is outdated, and with connectivity and technology as it is now, this is more the case than ever... but to me there are very few roles where this can be effective - such as call centre roles where they dont really collaborate or socialise with colleagues through the work day - but even then Im sure im not alone when I say that some call centre experiences have been rather sub par - i have had several with hard to hear call handlers who are then apologising as their dog is barking in the background or a child is making a lot of noise - hardly a professional image for the company.

Whereas I can see how some who have had a taste of working from home desperately want to keep it - but also I very much see how the companies themselves have their own idea of how they want their staff to work and collaborate, and the impression they want to project as a company, and frankly its the employer's decision.

Right now, we aren't even talking about 5 days a week!! they are kicking off about having to do 3... which is FAR better than they had pre-covid. We will see many companies stop this softly softly approach soon and its going to be like it or lump it - you took on the role as an office based role with a commute 5 days a week and that what it is...

 

[mikethemartian]

Obviously working from home is not getting Apple leadership the results they want. And it cannot. This is the world’s most valuable company. I think the policy is dictated downward in companies. If people don’t want to work there given the company policies, they should resign effective immediately.

Working is a privilege not a right. I believe too many people are twisted in that thinking. If working from home worked so well, Apple would definitely keep that arrangement. It hasn’t worked. The whole nature of business is to work in teams.

I would say if Apple could benefit from hiring these people as private contractors and terminate employment agreements, that would benefit Apple as they no longer would be required to carry health care, give 401K/stock, and pay employer’s portion of taxes.

So these people should want to go to the office or perhaps just lose all their benefits. But they’re all free to go work anywhere else they want to. And if that results in 65% of employees walking out, maybe Apple changes direction or more likely they just hire employees who will abide by corporate rules.

Although I agree that working isn’t a right it is also not a privilege. It is just a business arrangement. They can go with contractors but they will be paying significantly more per hour for a contractor for the same work to compensate them for the lack of benefits so it isn’t going to be any cheaper. The main value of hiring contractors is that it is easier to let them go at the end of the contract but the disadvantage is those contractors are ready to jump ship at the end of the contract if better opportunities arise.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

If i lived close by, I'd go 7 times a week. Problem is, when it's an hour and a half drive, working from home is a better option. Or provide housing to avoid the commute. With gas prices, it's actually very expensive to work on-site.

Apple provides free shuttle services

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

Personally, I prefer being in an office with other people, but I can totally understand that there are people who don’t work as well in that environment.

I completely get this, purely on social terms it’s very healthy being around other people if you don’t interact with them. And it helps to segment an individuals work-life balance better if they’re in a different environment with different people.

If Apple has no doubt taken all the measures they can to make Apple Park a safe environment to work in, as all other employers have, then I see no reason why the employees shouldn’t be expected to return to their workplace regardless of how they feel about working from home. That’s a different matter entirely and should be discussed not as an isolated case for large companies or as a result of the pandemic, but as an ongoing project that can benefit everyone in the future.

As it stands now, employees agree to a work contract and an element of that is being present at the workplace. Would we be having the same discussion if people started to work from home without the pandemic happening?…

 

[Jason2000]

The economy is taking a turn. If I were them I would be happy to still have a job at this point. Many companies are starting to lay people off. Bunch of entitled brats.

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

And yet thousand of Apple employees would rather not have to be dragged there. The nightmare of 3 hours of commute is only appealing to a select few.

But that 3 hour commute was no different pre-pandemic, correct?

 

[jlc1978]

WFH is the new work benefit and it’s absolutely free for the company to provide.

It's not really free; there are unresolved issues that haven't been worked out. For example, what happens if an employee injures themselves at home? At work, it's workman's comp. At home, is it covered? If they are full time WFH, whose liable if they get in an accident going to the office for a mandatory meeting?

What if they move to a state where your medical insurance provider does not have coverage? Should they lose their insurance? What workplace laws apply, their location or yours?

If a kid or pet breaks someone's work computer, who pays to fix it?

A lot of things will need ironing out as WFH becomes more common place.

 

[NARadyk]

Oh boy here come the ignorant anti WFH lot, better get the popcorn.

It’s embarrassing. They’ve either never worked from home themselves so are bitter about those that do/have or just outing themselves as “lazy”, deflecting their own lazy work ethic.

I honestly can’t see why people get so enraged about it otherwise.

 

[JM]

Apple provides free shuttle services

*ahem* soon to be Apple Car Shuttle Services. 🤫

 

[vicviper789]

I think it’s absolutely baffling that there’s people who WANT to be forced to go back to the office and WANT less flexibility and control over their work-life balance. I bet they hire dominatrixs

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

Yes they existed and they were ignored because "that's the way it is, it wouldn't work another way." The the pandemic demonstrated it's was bs. I (was) an employee for a worldwide market leader tech company too, until 4 months ago, we worked remotely for over 2 years, everything worked very well, I left because they refused me to continue work that way for a more flexible company, with me hundreds of employees. It's not a bad thing to try and fight for improved conditions i right? It doesn't need to be necessarily something everyone consider "right", companies are not charitable entities that do employees a favour giving them a job, especially in cases like mine or the apple employees in questions, where the job is very specialised and requested.

The way I see it couldn't be more clear: it was always obvious that for certain jobs being in the office, or even in the same country wasn't necessary at all, (in my case once I decided to move to more flexible company I also moved back to my country after several years), asking people for no reasons to renounce to 2 hours of their life without a good reasons it's obnoxious, remember Jobs motivating his employee saying that if they saved seconds on a computer operation they would have saved hundreds of hours of life in total? Eh. Why not save hundreds of my hours per year then?

I don’t deny what you’ve said, but do you not agree that there is a more constructive way of going about this? Blindly refusing to go into work doesn’t help anyone. It’s a discussion that needs to take place on a much broader level and it needs time - certainly not something that can just be agree in a meeting.

 

[tonywalker23]

I think what Jobs said about people running into one another in the lunch room or bathroom has some merit. I'm no programmer, and I may have no clue what I'm talking about… but when the Reminders app in iOS and the app in Mac have entirely different shortcuts for how I interact with it daily, it seems to me that having people in the same location is what would help the "little things" that got me into the Apple ecosystem 19 years ago.

maybe hindsight isn't accurate, but I remember the years of 10.2–10.6 that excited me so much. made there were filled with bugs and I just don’t remember. or maybe the annoyances that I encounter with iCloud syncing still to this day could be helped with some kind of water cooler discussion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

im not in that world. I'm a pastor who is often alone in my office of if I am in town with people it is usually to discuss some kind of trouble, issue, help, support, etc. but as I listened to ATP the other day and Marco (I think it was Marco?) go on a rant about how pitiful it has been for developers to get support from Apple and he only got help because he knew people on the inside, it makes me miss the days when Apple was smaller and perhaps more desperate.

 

[dugbug]

I think it’s absolutely baffling that there’s people who WANT to be forced to go back to the office and WANT less flexibility and control over their work-life balance. I bet they hire dominatrixs

The option to work at home in times of need (helping a sick spouse).... totally understand and a lot of folks are not even able do that (manufacturing jobs for example). To declare you are permanently work from home is a different category IMHO.