Apple Engineers Explain New Mac Pro's Innovative Cooling Features

[shplock]

that fin density is weak looking,
View attachment 882359

comparing to

Are you planning on using it or swinging from it? Lol

 

[gnasher729]

With the amount of emphasis and design philosophy structured towards avoiding LOUD NOISE at all cost...couldn't Apple have went towards liquid cooling? I'll never understand Apple's love for silence at the cost of adequate/bad cooling in all of their machines.a

You didn't read the article, did you? They didn't optimise the _amount_ of noise, they optimised how bad it sounds so it doesn't get on the user's nerves.

PS. If you want to cool > 1,000 Watt using liquid cooling, you better install that Mac in the kitchen or near your washing machine where you have a good water supply.

 

[zYxMa]

Some of you clearly have no idea what liquid cooking is.

I’ve been using custom built liquid cooling in my PCs for over 10 years now, often 24/7. Never failed once and it’s still running right this second.
Yes fans are used, but not only they don’t have to be used, they’re usually on the lowest setting. Only enough to create the air movement.

the water pump, sensors, fans, fittings nothing ever failed.

 

[scalvin1994]

You know... I love Apple products. But Apple doesn't always make the wisest decisions. I want a Mac. I want a modular Mac I can update and play with just like I can do with a Windows-based machine. However $10k for a computer and monitor is bonkers! Yes, I know they're going for the "professional market" because there are millions on those people <Laughs loudly>. How about one that costs $2500-$5000? I'd pay something like that for an Apple design and ease of use. Apple still shows how tone deaf they are to the PC enthusiast/gamer market. Sad really!!!

 

[shplock]

there is no way that "cheese grater" front will help prevent any dust from entering. even the dust filter mesh on my gaming pc has some dust on the cooler behind the dust filter.

Then clean it and there is no problem. Some people seem intent on moaning about anything rather than coMe up with simple solutions and having a coke and a smile

 

[zYxMa]

A liquid cooling system makes it more difficult to upgrade or swap out components. And the systems ability to be upgraded by the user was one of Apples selling points for the MP.

When you’re building a PC with liquid cooling, it’s usually high end and upgrades are not required for many years.

 

[Mr. Awesome]

there is no way that "cheese grater" front will help prevent any dust from entering. even the dust filter mesh on my gaming pc has some dust on the cooler behind the dust filter.

It won't prevent ANY dust from entering, but it helps keep some dust out, instead of just having regular holes leading into the machine. Plus, most people who use this machine aren't using it in a particularly dusty, dirty environment.

 

[iLilana]

As a sound engineer I applaud the design. As a sound engineer who thinks its overpriced I could have come up with a cheaper solution.

 

[Mr. Awesome]

You know... I love Apple products. But Apple doesn't always make the wisest decisions. I want a Mac. I want a modular Mac I can update and play with just like I can do with a Windows-based machine. However $10k for a computer and monitor is bonkers! Yes, I know they're going for the "professional market" because there are millions on those people <Laughs loudly>. How about one that costs $2500-$5000? I'd pay something like that for an Apple design and ease of use. Apple still shows how tone deaf they are to the PC enthusiast/gamer market. Sad really!!!

Dude, just get a Mac mini. Seriously.

 

[cmaier]

When you’re building a PC with liquid cooling, it’s usually high end and upgrades are not required for many years.

Can;t have it both ways. For years people complained that Apple wouldn’t give them a high end system they can upgrade. Now they complain that apple didn’t give them liquid cooling, because, after all, they aren’t going to ACTUALLY upgrade it...

 

[ilikewhey]

Are you planning on using it or swinging from it? Lol

lol makes a great defense weapon

 

[Digital Skunk]

Not sure what config you’re referencing, but a single Xeon system with the Mac Pro’s specs clocks in at almost $90k, though with the 30% discount they’re offering it’s available for the low, low price of $62k.

That’s 25% more expensive than Apple—with a slower CPU (2.5/3.8GHz vs 2.5/4.4), slower memory (2666 vs 2933), a less powerful GPU and a much slower SATA SSD.

Base. Just the dual 28C cpu is more than a fully spec'd MacPro.

Some of you clearly have no idea what liquid cooking is.

I’ve been using custom built liquid cooling in my PCs for over 10 years now, often 24/7. Never failed once and it’s still running right this second.
Yes fans are used, but not only they don’t have to be used, they’re usually on the lowest setting. Only enough to create the air movement.

the water pump, sensors, fans, fittings nothing ever failed.

I am going ot assume we're all talking about Apple's attempt at the liquid cooled G5 Quad from years ago. Those things failed quite consistently all things considered.

 

[LordVic]

I think that depends on whether you are comparing it with one that has similar specs but no headroom to grow or one with similar potential.



It also decreases if one considers upgrading over time and therefore one wants the headroom (not necessity arguing for this, I am not sure that makes sense in most cases, just pointing it out).



It is related to the whole machine. They have built a box with a tremendous amount of headroom. Users at the lowest end will pay a penalty for that growth potential.



As someone else has explained on here, it is not the cost of the motherboard or power supply (although there is some of both of those), it is the cost of designing the full system.

yes
THat is the point I'm making. That the baseline lower end Mac Pros are ridiculously overpriced because Apple has gone with a "one size fits all" approach for certain components.

While that's excellent from an upgradability standpoint and "future proofing" there is a cost loss to the user. especially on the lower tiers that do not make up for that price difference

Especially considering that standard ATX components are far less costly and offer almost identical upgrade paths as this new motherboard.

Apple to bring the costs down of the lower tiered Mac Pro probably would have been better served by having a cheaper internals option for those additional components.

I'm doing this just cause it's something I always do comparing performance, parts and price. Just wanted to see at the low end specs, could I build a computer with similar specs and performance to the Mac pro. What would it cost. And what would the differences be.

my build here is based on two requirements: Performance must be equal, or better than the Mac Pro. There's no point claiming something to be "Cheaper" if it doesn't perform the same. Feature set must be similar. There's no point in pricing out non-ECC RAM for example, because it's not a like to like comparison.

however, Here's the numbers, based on the bare minimum speced Mac Pro with only the CPU upgraded due to hard to find benchmarks on the w3223 (can find the 3235 benchmarks so far):

The Mac Pro for comparisons:
CPU: Xeon W-3235 (12 core, 24 Thread)
RAM: DDR4 32gb (4 x 8) ECC at 2666mhz.
Graphics: Radeon Pro 580x w/ 8gb VRAM
Storage: 256GB NVME SSD
Networking: Built in AC Wifi: 2 x 10gb Ethernet, bluetooth 5
Peripherals: ThunderBolt 3.1
Price: 7,999.00


A custom built PC computer that offers better performance, but similar featuresets
CPU: AMD Ryzen 3 R9 3950x (16 core, 32thread, faster in all benchmarks, mixxing intel quicksync as a feature if required, but adds PCI-4.0 support)
RAM: DDR4 32gb (4 x 8) ECC at 2666mhz.
Graphics: Radeon R5700xt 8gb (faster than 580x pro and newer)
Motherboard: ASRock x570 AQUA... why? Because all the features faster Wifi although only one 10gbps ethernet. better audio. Support for up to 4x GPU's. 8x SATA. 2 x NVME PCIE x 4 interfaces
Storage: 1TB of PCI-E 4 storage at 5gbps
Case: Dune's highest end Mac Pro knock off case cause we want it to look the same
Total Price - $2,980


I love what Apple has sone with the new Mac Pro. it's going to be fast and quiet and cool. I think a premium from Apple is appropriate... but in this particular case, the lowest tiers of the Mac Pro are coming in at nearly a 2.5x premium price point for performance and features because of the over-engineering that they've put in to support the highest tiers.

 

[MarciaFunebre]

I call utter ******** on this. It has long been proven that you can build powerful workstations without any fans or moving parts. In Germany Deltatronic is one of the companies that are proving this.
Also, noise issues aside, has anybody thought of the amount of dust that will accumulate through the big holes on the cheese grater? People who have been around electronics for a long time know what dust does to electronic parts over time.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Not sure what config you’re referencing, but a single Xeon system with the Mac Pro’s specs clocks in at almost $90k, though with the 30% discount they’re offering it’s available for the low, low price of $62k.

First, do not inject actual facts into this conversation. It makes you look like an apologist! 🙃

That’s 25% more expensive than Apple—with a slower CPU (2.5/3.8GHz vs 2.5/4.4), slower memory (2666 vs 2933), a less powerful GPU and a much slower SATA SSD.

The CPU also has about half the cache. The machine has fewer Thunderbolt 3 buses, and inferior networking.

It does have the option to add a second equivalent CPU for about $13,000 more.

Oh, and it does not come with macOS.

 

[Naraxus]

Of course you have the usual snarky comments, but this is just a small glimpse into the thought and engineering that goes into Apple products.

I have to say this is a pretty impressive machine. I'm nowhere NEAR the target market for it but I'd still love to have one

 

[ilikewhey]

Then clean it and there is no problem. Some people seem intent on moaning about anything rather than coMe up with simple solutions and having a coke and a smile

its alot easier to clean if there is a mesh panel you can just remove and wipe, vs no filter and you have to get in there with a can of compressed air and work from all angles.
[automerge]1576173822[/automerge]

It won't prevent ANY dust from entering, but it helps keep some dust out, instead of just having regular holes leading into the machine. Plus, most people who use this machine aren't using it in a particularly dusty, dirty environment.

with holes that big its not preventing anything but sticking your fingers into the fan.

you dont know what the environment is going to be like. a buddy of mine ordered this and his setup is in his basement with a layer of dust on his couch table.

 

[Spock]

Go with the 58 core model, it will handle Netflix at 8K and stream some tunes to another room without buffer issues.

I got the 28 core, but I only got 768GB of memory. I did do the Vega II Duo so I can run 4K all around my house. It’s going to be crazy. 😆

 

[PickUrPoison]

I call utter ******** on this. It has long been proven that you can build powerful workstations without any fans or moving parts. In Germany Deltatronic is one of the companies that are proving this.
Also, noise issues aside, has anybody thought of the amount of dust that will accumulate through the big holes on the cheese grater? People who have been around electronics for a long time know what dust does to electronic parts over time.

Lots of concern in this thread about dust lol. Where did you guys get this talking point?

PCs have been around for 40+ years and now today, almost the year 2020, our working environment has suddenly become so filthy that this is an actual concern?

You guys need to ask for a new talking point. This one is making for a lot of foolish posts.

 

[tolsen718]

This is why there is an apple tax. Happy to pay a little extra to get a powerful machine that is also quiet.

 

[Alan Wynn]

yes
THat is the point I'm making. That the baseline lower end Mac Pros are ridiculously overpriced because Apple has gone with a "one size fits all" approach for certain components.

While that's excellent from an upgradability standpoint and "future proofing" there is a cost loss to the user. especially on the lower tiers that do not make up for that price difference

Especially considering that standard ATX components are far less costly and offer almost identical upgrade paths as this new motherboard.

Apple has never and would never ship a standard ATX motherboard designed by someone else. Once you get past that, you have to understand that cost of the components is trivial compared to the cost of the design. Cut the DIMM slots to 4 you save $5-10. Go to 3 PCIe slots from 8, saves $5. Cut the size of the power supply and you get $300 back. Design a second lower spec motherboard for the even smaller niche market and you add way more cost back.

Apple to bring the costs down of the lower tiered Mac Pro probably would have been better served by having a cheaper internals option for those additional components.

What components would you expect to use that would save $3,000 and not add $5,000 in new design cost?

A custom built PC computer that offers better performance, but similar feature sets
CPU: AMD Ryzen 3 R9 3950x (16 core, 32thread, faster in all benchmarks, mixxing intel quicksync as a feature if required, but adds PCI-4.0 support)
RAM: DDR4 32gb (4 x 8) ECC at 2666mhz.
Graphics: Radeon R5700xt 8gb (faster than 580x pro and newer)
Motherboard: ASRock x570 AQUA... why? Because all the features faster Wifi although only one 10gbps ethernet. better audio. Support for up to 4x GPU's. 8x SATA. 2 x NVME PCIE x 4 interfaces
Storage: 1TB of PCI-E 4 storage at 5gbps
Case: Dune's highest end Mac Pro knock off case cause we want it to look the same
Total Price - $2,980

While switching to AMD would give you a better option at the moment, given that Apple had no design experience with those processors, it would have added time and cost. It would also mean that it would be a totally different machine and again, almost all the cost savings from having 5

I love what Apple has sone with the new Mac Pro. it's going to be fast and quiet and cool. I think a premium from Apple is appropriate... but in this particular case, the lowest tiers of the Mac Pro are coming in at nearly a 2.5x premium price point for performance and features because of the over-engineering that they've put in to support the highest tiers.

Again, were Apple to have 2 SKUs, the lower spec version would have to cost about the same, given the cost of design for a second low volume system.

 

[AxiomaticRubric]

The article states: "According to Apple, the reworked "cheese grater" look achieves around 20 percent more airflow compared to the Power Mac G5 that preceded it"

I'm confused, or am I reading that wrong? The cheese grater style system that directly preceded this was an intel xeon system, released in 2012. Not the G5.

The original “cheese grater” chassis was introduced with the G5 Power Mac in 2003. The outward design never changed much until it was finally sacked in 2012.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Some of you clearly have no idea what liquid cooking is.

I’ve been using custom built liquid cooling in my PCs for over 10 years now, often 24/7. Never failed once and it’s still running right this second.
Yes fans are used, but not only they don’t have to be used, they’re usually on the lowest setting. Only enough to create the air movement.

the water pump, sensors, fans, fittings nothing ever failed.

Are you talking about removing the total heat the system creates (1,200W+) or just the couple hundred Watts from the CPU?

 

[LordVic]

Apple has never and would never ship a standard ATX motherboard designed by someone else. Once you get past that, you have to understand that cost of the components is trivial compared to the cost of the design. Cut the DIMM slots to 4 you save $5-10. Go to 3 PCIe slots from 8, saves $5. Cut the size of the power supply and you get $300 back. Design a second lower spec motherboard for the even smaller niche market and you add way more cost back.



What components would you expect to use that would save $3,000 and not add $5,000 in new design cost?



While switching to AMD would give you a better option at the moment, given that Apple had no design experience with those processors, it would have added time and cost. It would also mean that it would be a totally different machine and again, almost all the cost savings from having 5



Again, were Apple to have 2 SKUs, the lower spec version would have to cost about the same, given the cost of design for a second low volume system.

not sure why you're trying to argue with me here as I am in agreeance with what you are saying

I'm just evidencing that their current strategy has some gaps in it at the lower end.

if you're looking for a workstation at the lower/mid tiers, than Apple's offering is ridiculously priced for the performance and features.

it's only once you get into the higher end performance optiosn that the pricing starts to be more reasonably in line with performance in comparison to the rest of the market.


Just pointing that out, and explaining why that would be.

What I think would actually make more sense for Apple and customers is o split the "mac pro" line in 1/2.

bringin in the mythical Mac X. a consumer focused mid-ranger that hits a much more appropriate price to performance ratio for the non-workstation class market.

that said, I've said it in all my posts. the new Mac Pro is the workstation machine that workstations users are looking for and brings the features, expansion capabilities, and performance levels that many do need.

 

[PickUrPoison]

You know... I love Apple products. But Apple doesn't always make the wisest decisions. I want a Mac. I want a modular Mac I can update and play with just like I can do with a Windows-based machine. However $10k for a computer and monitor is bonkers! Yes, I know they're going for the "professional market" because there are millions on those people <Laughs loudly>. How about one that costs $2500-$5000? I'd pay something like that for an Apple design and ease of use. Apple still shows how tone deaf they are to the PC enthusiast/gamer market. Sad really!!!

Gamers are better served by less expensive PCs running Windows; it’s just not an important market for Apple.