Apple Executive Greg Joswiak Dismisses Planned Obsolescence as 'Craziest Thinking in the World'

[MauiPa]

Oh boy, would love to have him explain to me why installing iOS 11 utterly ****ed my iPhone 6 by intentionally throttling it for no reason, then I was unable to downgrade back to 10. And for that matter, 10 was slower than 9 and 8.

Still, they do better than the Android world. Zero major OS updates is far worse and is downright scary and irresponsible. I'll bet the majority of botnet power comes from Android devices.

"iPhone 6 by intentionally throttling it for no reason". as in old battery being no reason. Not sure why you couldn't downgrade, there are usually instructions available. Did you wait too long (aka, you weren't really experiencing problems).

I have used iPhones since the 3. You are telling me as fact that the 8 was faster than 9 which was faster than 10, which was faster than 11. That is not my experience at all. I even ran Geekbench on my phones and came to the opposite conclusion. I even ran my 5s up through all the upgrades in public beta and was always pleased with performance.

Not to call you a liar, but simply would like to see some evidence of your claim. No one I know has experienced that issue with perpetual slowdowns.
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I do too; however that new stuff is building up waste in other countries and polluting land and water. And causing health and other issues for people worldwide. This isn't ecology bull, it's the truth and at some point everyone, in particular the privileged, need to take this into consideration. We need to develop a more sustainable business model, particularly in the IT industry and I would hope Apple would take the lead (as they have in so many areas like privacy). There are only so many TV's a person needs in their possession, and the same for computers, smartphones, etc. Everyone person having 10 models + of each of these items in a lifetime, with little to no recycling, and that for the majority of the people on the planet is not sustainable.

Good thing Apple built that recycling robot!

 

[ChrisChaval]

I have not run Windows 10 a 7-year-old PC, but I have run Linux Mint on an 11-year-old iMac, and it's surprising how nicely it runs with support for the majority of modern Linux applications.

Yes, throw away is an exaggeration, which I think should be apparent to anyone. But considering it takes Apple only a few months to stop supporting prior MacOS releases with Xcode, iWork, etc., and not being able to run the latest version of those apps causes problems which can only be solved (at least officially) by upgrading your hardware, it has some basis in fact.

I am running Windows 10 on a 10 year old PC, today.

Yes, this year it turns 10. intel core 2 quad 9300 cpu, 8Gb of DDR2 RAM, nice fast Samsung SSD, radeon 7850 HD graphics card ..

why would I want to throw it away
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I would like to know that Apple will support its various OS with security updates for at least 10 years, simply because their hardware lasts longer than that by 25-100%, and it is shame to retire a working expensive device. Their hardware-software integration is still the best.

This way, Apple can expand its base of users as the newer devices are bought by new users, not just people re-upping their 4-5 year old ones. The old devices do not need to run the latest OS, they need only security updates. The newer users should be drawn to their eco by the reputation of how well Apple is supporting its products for such long periods, justifying their initial high price, the infamous "Apple Tax"!

Too many people on earth still not using Apple products.

this is a very good point

 

[chris1958]

1. It will still get security updates for a couple more years.

Couple of years: exactly 2 years. Apple only updates the two previous versions. At least as long I'm using Apple computers.

 

[bbednarz]

I just wanted one more year too, im planning on buying a new 27" this fall/winter when Apple makes the 2018 iMac.

Mojave doesn't get released until this fall so it looks like you are in luck.

 

[redheeler]

You're not understanding at all what I'm saying. A future release of OSX is getting rid of OpenGL and switching to Metal. This is obviously to enhance performance as OpenGL has a lot of legacy nonsense that it drags with it. When Apple strips OpenGL, they're doing it for good because it's unrealistic to keep two version of an OS, one with Metal controlling the graphics drawing, and one with OpenGL doing the graphics drawing.

Currently Apple isn't there yet, they're not fully Metal which is why both are coexisting at the moment. Coexisting has a lot of drawbacks. In the future, once everything is re-written from OpenGL to Metal, OpenGL goes away because it would be foolish to try and support two full OSs with different under the hood graphics drawing.

One more year of OpenGL support before next year's MacOS release goes Metal-only is not an unreasonable request. As I said earlier in this thread, one more year can make a big difference.

 

[bbednarz]

Couple of years: exactly 2 years. Apple only updates the two previous versions. At least as long I'm using Apple computers.

Meaning a 2010 Mac is supported until 2020. Ten years seems long enough to offer updates. If my 2014 MacBook is supported until 2024 I will be one happy camper.

 

[Detektiv-Pinky]

Oh, MacRumors wrote a bad word.


So, you want indefinite free OS support for older Macs?

No, I am perfectly fine to pay for it. They do not need to give it away for free.
I just don't want to throw away a very fine and still very, very workable computer, just because Apple stops offering security updates for these boxes in 24 months.

 

[44267547]

Fact: Apple add new features to older devices, which are (arguably) not optimised for those older devices, which result in slower user experience for those devices.

So, in order words, older phones get slower as a result of software updates. (It doesn't matter if it's intentional or not.).

So, you’re expecting older devices not to slow down naturally as technology progresses? That doesn’t really make any sense. Also, along with the software updates includes security patches. It would be behoove the user to upgrade if they have the availability to do so to protect their information from concerns like Spectre and Meltdown.

 

[RickInHouston]

Crazy like a Fox!

Happened to me. Voted with my wallet. Buh bye.

 

[oneMadRssn]

iOS: We care about your older devices.

MacOS: Please throw away your MacBook (Late 2009), MacBook (Mid 2010), MacBook Pro (Mid 2010), MacBook Pro (Early 2011), MacBook Pro (Late 2011), iMac (Late 2009), iMac (Mid 2010), iMac (Mid 2011), Mac mini (Mid 2010), or Mac mini (Mid 2011).

What a great company...

(Sorry for the repost, but this is definitely relevant here.)

Microsoft supporting ancient hardware forever, bogging down their newest OSes with tons of bloat for legacy support, is exactly why most people hate Windows.

 

[Rogifan]

To determine if it’s planned or not, intent does matter. Also, sales would be terrible if they intentionally slowed down phones.

The operative word here is intent. For anyone to say Apple engaged in planned obsolescence is that their intent and purpose is to make older hardware suck to get people to buy new hardware. Again that’s ridiculous. To believe that you have to believe people who use Apple products are lemmings or sheep who will keep buying no matter the experience. Also there is a difference between so-called planned obsolescence and upselling. Apple definitely does the latter but it’s certainly not unique to Apple. It’s basically marketing 101.

 

[Detektiv-Pinky]

Meaning a 2010 Mac is supported until 2020. Ten years seems long enough to offer updates. If my 2014 MacBook is supported until 2024 I will be one happy camper.

Not everybody bought on the day of HW-release. So while it might be the year-x model, it might actually be manufactured at year-x+y

 

[FrenchRoasted]

Spot off. If you don't want a new device from Apple, MS, Dell, ASUS, don't get one. How many 8-11 year old devices are out there? It seems from the complaints a lot of Apples anyway. Thats a good thing, right?

This "if you don't like it, don't buy it!" nonsense has got to stop. Many of want certain features from Apple (like upgradeable laptops), that is not whining.

 

[ChrisChaval]

The operative word here is intent. For anyone to say Apple engaged in planned obsolescence is that their intent and purpose is to make older hardware suck to get people to buy new hardware. Again that’s ridiculous. To believe that you have to believe people who use Apple products are lemmings or sheep who will keep buying no matter the experience. Also there is a difference between so-called planned obsolescence and upselling. Apple definitely does the latter but it’s certainly not unique to Apple. It’s basically marketing 101.

remember battery / throttling gate?

we caught them red handed

and they indirectly admitted to it by introducing the battery performance switches in the latest ios releases

that ain't upselling, no way

 

[trifid]

I'd like to know how soldering RAM on mac mini, and removing RAM door on iMacs isn't planned obsolescence.

 

[Gregg Thurman]

iOS: We care about your older devices.

MacOS: Please throw away your MacBook (Late 2009), MacBook (Mid 2010), MacBook Pro (Mid 2010), MacBook Pro (Early 2011), MacBook Pro (Late 2011), iMac (Late 2009), iMac (Mid 2010), iMac (Mid 2011), Mac mini (Mid 2010), or Mac mini (Mid 2011).

What a great company...

(Sorry for the repost, but this is definitely relevant here.)

The NEWEST on your list is SEVEN years old.

An Android is obsolete after one year due to its inability to upgrade existing handsets.
A Wintel is obsolete after 5 years because the hardware can't handle the newest OS.

And your argument is that Apple fails to support its hardware long enough to suit you? Get a life.

 

[Squirrel]

Daring Fireball writer John Gruber sat down with Apple's VP of marketing Greg Joswiak and VP of AR/VR engineering Mike Rockwell at the California Theatre on Tuesday for a live recording of his The Talk Show podcast.

MacRumors was in attendance during the interview, which reflected on a wide range of topics, including augmented reality, privacy, the latest software updates, and other announcements from the WWDC keynote on Monday. A replay of the event is also available on YouTube, starting around the 29:40 mark.

One of those announcements, revealed by software engineering chief Craig Federighi, was that iOS 12 more quickly ramps up peak performance when needed for a faster and more responsive experience on all supported devices, going all the way back to the iPhone 5s and iPad Air, both released in 2013.

On an iPhone 6 Plus running iOS 12, for example, Apple says the keyboard appears up to 50 percent faster, apps launch up to twice as fast under heavy load, and the camera opens up to 70 percent faster from the lock screen.

Gruber expressed that part of Apple's emphasis on those performance improvements on stage must be to counter the notion of planned obsolescence, or the idea that it deliberately slows down older iPhones with software updates to drive customers to upgrade to the latest and greatest models.

Joswiak quickly dismissed the idea as "about the craziest thinking in the world," and talked up iOS 12 as a "really good update."

"Which is about the craziest thinking in the world, where I give you a ****** experience so you go buy our new product," quipped Joswiak. "But, to your point, there's been so much that people forgot about how great software updates are. First of all, we have a 95 percent customer satisfaction rate with iOS 11... it's great. We have delivered through the years amazing features, from the App Store to iMessage."

"Software updates are super important," he added. "You have got to remember, we're supporting devices that were introduced in 2013. Devices that are more recently introduced... iPhone X... are a lot faster than those, just by the nature of how fast our chips have gotten. We've got the fastest chips in the business. Our chips last year are faster than theirs this year."

Joswiak said Apple wanted to pay "special attention" to older devices that may be experiencing "slowdowns" under heavy workloads.

"Craig was making a point of showing, look, we did a lot of engineering, and a lot of testing... to show that we're going to double the performance for those people on iOS 12," he said. "iOS 12 supports the same set of devices that iOS 11 did, again going all the way back to 2013... all the way back to the iPhone 5s, and it's going to be a really good update for those people."

"If we only wanted you to buy new hardware, we would only have updates that support like six percent of our users," he joked.

The first beta of iOS 12 was seeded to registered Apple developers on Monday, and a public beta should follow in the coming weeks, ahead of an official release in September. The software update is compatible with the iPhone 5s and newer, iPad Air and newer, and the sixth-generation iPod touch.

Article Link: Apple Executive Greg Joswiak Dismisses Planned Obsolescence as 'Craziest Thinking in the World'

 

[fairuz]

"iPhone 6 by intentionally throttling it for no reason". as in old battery being no reason. Not sure why you couldn't downgrade, there are usually instructions available. Did you wait too long (aka, you weren't really experiencing problems).

I have used iPhones since the 3. You are telling me as fact that the 8 was faster than 9 which was faster than 10, which was faster than 11. That is not my experience at all. I even ran Geekbench on my phones and came to the opposite conclusion. I even ran my 5s up through all the upgrades in public beta and was always pleased with performance.

Not to call you a liar, but simply would like to see some evidence of your claim. No one I know has experienced that issue with perpetual slowdowns.

I installed the update late, after they had stopped signing iOS 10. My battery was not degraded, as evidenced by iOS 11.3 un-throttling it later on and showing in that new settings page that it's running at max speed. It's a lot faster now.

Geekbench is a benchmark for hardware (actually only CPU, unless they've updated it now). It doesn't tell you anything about the resource consumption of the OS and other factors relating to it. If Geekbench gave you different results for different iOS versions, it would not be a good benchmark. There's no good way to test it; it's just obvious that when I open Safari or my alarms, I should not have to wait 5 seconds. I should be able to type faster than 1 keypress per second.

I've been using iPhones since the original. My og iPhone was faster than my 6 once the 6 had been updated. Everyone complains about their iPhones getting slower when they update. It's been that way since ~ iOS 4 (I never heard complaints about 3 and earlier).

Also, if your claim that iOS never gets heavier were true, because iPhones get faster each year, you'd also expect every new iPhone to be much faster with the default OS than your iPhone 3G is with its default OS, which isn't the case. They're about the same.

Too bad they couldn't keep the OS the same and downclock new hardware instead of making it faster to keep up. Then we'd have insanely long battery life.
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The NEWEST on your list is SEVEN years old.

An Android is obsolete after one year due to its inability to upgrade existing handsets.
A Wintel is obsolete after 5 years because the hardware can't handle the newest OS.

And your argument is that Apple fails to support its hardware long enough to suit you? Get a life.

All true except for the Wintel part. Windows has stayed light (except Vista), and you can comfortably run Windows 7 (or 10 if for some reason you want that) on hardware that came out when Macs still used PPC. But yeah, not a big deal. I think Apple's macOS support is good enough. Realistically your Mac is only really toast after 10 years, at which point the hardware is trash anyway.

 

[Squirrel]

"Craziest thinking in the world"?? Your absolutely right Mr. Joswiak.... May I present to you "The Crazy Ones" spoken by Steve Jobs himself. I wouldn't put 'planned obsolescence' past any of the top minds at Apple.

 

[LovingTeddy]

so says the person that doesn't;t own any Apple devices. Must be an expert. Actually security and other updates do get made on older OS's. high Sierra will be supported for years. I guess as you don't own any apple devices you can be excused for not knowing how it works, but why comments?

How do you know I don't have Apple products? I have iPhone, iPad, MacBook Air, Mac Mini. Though... Last time I used them was half year ago for maintainess purpose. God knows how long I have not turn on my MacBook Air... I should use it more often, because this still great on running Windows 10. Oh, yea... I remember I can still run Windows 10 on my machine dates back to 2010.

 

[Gregg Thurman]

I have come to the conclusion that all these people are one of five camps.

#1 Super cheap *******s. A new car cost about $30K (vs $1800 for a new iMac). But they replace that new car every 5 years.

#2 Trolls that need something to complain about that the rest of the universe finds inconsequential.

#3 Anti anything Apple trolls that have never, and will never, own anything Apple.

#4 Pimple faced teenage geeks looking to rile their elders in every forum possible

#5. All of the above

 

[Detektiv-Pinky]

How's not getting an OS update to the 8-year-old devices telling users to throw them away? They still run fine with High Sierra right?

Until the day when the security updates stop coming and then you better pack up.
My 27' 2011-model iMac was manufactured in 2012, so it is technically only 6 years old.

 

[Gregg Thurman]

I have come to the conclusion that all these people are one of five camps.

#1 Super cheap *******s. A new car cost about $30K (vs $1800 for a new iMac). But they replace that new car every 5 years.

#2 Trolls that need something to complain about that the rest of the universe finds inconsequential.

#3 Anti anything Apple trolls that have never, and will never, own anything Apple.

#4 Pimple faced teenage geeks looking to rile their elders in every forum possible

#5. All of the above

Then comes the response that proves most of the above: He/she lists their hardware as follows:

Huawei Mate 10, P10, Nova 2 and 2S, P10 Lite, Nova Plus, Honor 8, Xiaomi Mi A1, Redmi Note 4, Xiaomi Mi Max 2 and All other Android goodies. ThinkPad is my daily PC.

 

[Detektiv-Pinky]

I have come to the conclusion that all these people are one of five camps.

#1 Super cheap *******s. A new car cost about $30K (vs $1800 for a new iMac). But they replace that new car every 5 years.

#2 Trolls that need something to complain about that the rest of the universe finds inconsequential.

#3 Anti anything Apple trolls that have never, and will never, own anything Apple.

#4 Pimple faced teenage geeks looking to rile their elders in every forum possible

#5. All of the above

Sure man, you drive your 5-year old car straight to the dumpster. Same with all your furniture, fridge, washing machine, you name it.

For some of us computers have become a commodity and not a novelty fad that one is eager to replace at the first notion of a product update.

 

[ChrisChaval]

I have come to the conclusion that all these people are one of five camps.

#1 Super cheap *******s. A new car cost about $30K (vs $1800 for a new iMac). But they replace that new car every 5 years.

#2 Trolls that need something to complain about that the rest of the universe finds inconsequential.

#3 Anti anything Apple trolls that have never, and will never, own anything Apple.

#4 Pimple faced teenage geeks looking to rile their elders in every forum possible

#5. All of the above

I am voicing my opinion on this forum because I care

I do like Apple and own many Apple products and I am mostly happy with them

mostly

If I would not care, I would not be wasting my time here posting but would have moved on long ago instead