Apple Executive Says Users Who Want App Sideloading Already Have That Option With Other Platforms

[dk001]

It’s not nonsense, though, it’s the way the world works. IF ALL the folks that wanted sideloading were to stop buying iPhones and ONLY buy Android products, the sales would dictate Apple’s actions.

The majority that wants it only “kinnnnda” wants it, but are still willing to support Apple’s closed system in the interim. If, like large screened phones, it was REALLY important to those people, they’d buy the phone that does what they like and Apple would follow fairly quickly

I hear what you are saying but consumers are not buying iOS vs Android on the ability to sideload. If it is on their list at all I suspect it is more of a footnote.

Be a great Jay Leno piece; "Hey, I see you use a smartphone. Can you tell me what sideloading is?" 😆

 

[mngdew]

btw, my Android has far less "switches" when it comes to settings than my iPhone.

Agree 100%.

Can you ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE 100% that NO apps will be removed from the App Store? Those saying you won’t be forced to are not thinking clearly. If I want Fortnite, I will have NO CHOICE but to side load.

Even Apple doesn't absolutely guarantee 100% no apps will be removed from the app store without the sideloading.
When I had an Android phone it actually gave me options to sideload older versions of apps if the current version gave me problems.

 

[spinedoc77]

Alright, if that’s a fair price then I will stop putting words in your mouth. And it may be too much or too little, who knows.

As the poster below this says, users do not pay for privacy. And that is pretty much the truth, consumers will not pay extra for it, but if its built into the purchase price they will.

Just to be clear I was being quite sarcastic about the whole thing. I do think the internet is a fair analogy, but it's definitely far fetched with the amount of websites out there. My point mainly being that the internet itself, email, text messages, facetime, etc are all inherently insecure to an extent to begin with. If Apple can walk the line between educating consumers and implementing security/privacy safeguards without actually resorting to a model restricted only to their vetted websites, contacts, etc then I don't see the issue with Apple doing the same for the app store. I think the privacy and security stances are great and are what I like about Apple, but I don't kid myself for a single second that the motivation is pure profit and exactly 0.00% altruism.

Also note the sarcasm around curation, I think everything will eventually be curated with a monthly sub. Apple users love them some monthly subs.

 

[rrl]

People aren't buying an iPhone because "it cannot sideload".

It can sideload. It just can't sideload for free. And that's why plenty of us don't buy iPhones. We keep our phones for a long time and we don't want to pay a subscription price to develop on them.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I hear what you are saying but consumers are not buying iOS vs Android on the ability to sideload. If it is on their list at all I suspect it is more of a footnote.

Be a great Jay Leno piece; "Hey, I see you use a smartphone. Can you tell me what sideloading is?" 😆

So, in truth, SOME are buying iOS vs Android based on the ability to sideload. But it’s VERY true that the majority doesn’t care about sideloading.

 

[One2Grift]

Not what I said. Kindly stop playing it out of context.
On the other hand thanks for the link to the idc article. What I am reading is that you are using data (incorrectly) from it to support an opinion (yours) claim.

Fact 1: Android is the vastly dominant smartphone OS WW despite semantics about the precise number. Fact 2: you called that rhetoric. Fact 3: this and your past posting is to be commended. You take your Anti Apple posting here on this Apple board very enthusiastically. Fact 4: welcome to ignore...

 

[Seoras]

Apple could just remove their proprietary security hardware from the device ship a version with no OS and say that’s the one folks should buy if they want openness. Put on whatever store ya want!

I don't think you, nor most people, realise just how valuable to the developers and the end users benefit Apple's security and security hardware is.

I'm a developer and I've been working on a very cool technology that uses machine learning.
The problem we've run up against is that we need to keep the AI in the Cloud even though customers say it would be so much better if done on device.
But we can't, because if we load our AI models on device then there's a real risk of them being stolen, rebundled in another app, and sold by many others.
This is why so many Apps using AI are still done in the Cloud, the Cloud is a secure location.
Yes Apple's already started implementing encrypted models in their ML as of WWDC2020 but it only covers model methods Apple supports and if you remove the security hardware then it doesn't work at all.

See the problem here with progress and innovation being stifled by the stupidity in these demands for cracking open iOS?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I don't think you, nor most people, realise just how valuable to the developers and the end users benefit Apple's security and security hardware is.

Oh, I realize it. However, those that, for whatever reason, want an Apple device BUT also want to sideload, they would get it.

 

[dk001]

So, in truth, SOME are buying iOS vs Android based on the ability to sideload. But it’s VERY true that the majority doesn’t care about sideloading.

Very very small minority but I'll give you that.

 

[dk001]

Fact 1: Android is the vastly dominant smartphone OS WW despite semantics about the precise number. Fact 2: you called that rhetoric. Fact 3: this and your past posting is to be commended. You take your Anti Apple posting here on this Apple board very enthusiastically. Fact 4: welcome to ignore...

Once again out of context. Kindly stop taking specific items and treating it as a whole.
Term: Vocally. Remember that from your original post I commented on?

Anti Apple? Nice assumption on your side.

 

[Coluch]

Honestly Microsoft would of never got away with this ...

Someone hasn’t heard of the Xbox. How about the PlayStation store? Nintendo eShop? Why are consoles allowed gatekeeping power over their platforms, explicitly to protect licensing profits, and content?

This is only an issue because Android has set the bar so low for system security, that people expect all similar platforms to be as open.

No matter the ecosystem (computing, gaming, mobile) there are different models available depending on the company. Nobody who chooses a platform is suddenly surprised by their choice’s options. If you want something different, get something different. Apple has every right to control their platform, just as other businesses do. You want a free market? It’s right there, in your choice of ecosystem.

 

[Ethosik]

Someone hasn’t heard of the Xbox. How about the PlayStation store? Nintendo eShop? Why are consoles allowed gatekeeping power over their platforms, explicitly to protect licensing profits, and content?

This is only an issue because Android has set the bar so low for system security, that people expect all similar platforms to be as open.

No matter the ecosystem (computing, gaming, mobile) there are different models available depending on the company. Nobody who chooses a platform is suddenly surprised by their choice’s options. If you want something different, get something different. Apple has every right to control their platform, just as other businesses do. You want a free market? It’s right there, in your choice of ecosystem.

Agreed. I have stated this same thing before, but people commented stating that a "smartphone is a necessity to live where a game console is not!" which is completely false. My grandparents have flip phone Jitterbugs. They are living just fine.

 

[Beautyspin]

Yep, because I'm 100% sure it is a totally manual process and they don't use any ML-powered automation whatsoever as part of the process to focus their efforts. 🙄
I am by no means stating that automation is flawless - plenty has fallen through the cracks - but it is disingenuous to try to imply that it is a labor-intensive process with a respectable, if imperfect, track record.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. You are assuming there is an ML-powered automation. Is it even possible for app approval process to be automated? Certain parts of it, yes. Can it be totally done? I doubt it. We would not have so many scam apps if that were the case. Just one iOS developer has come out with millions of dollars worth of app scams. Many are not complaining because they do not want to sour their relationship with Apple. Once Apple is split up and Appstore is divested from Apple or Apple is forced to allow multiple App Stores, developers will come forward to expose more of the scams.

 

[Lolhaxsor]

Someone hasn’t heard of the Xbox. How about the PlayStation store? Nintendo eShop? Why are consoles allowed gatekeeping power over their platforms, explicitly to protect licensing profits, and content?

This is only an issue because Android has set the bar so low for system security, that people expect all similar platforms to be as open.

No matter the ecosystem (computing, gaming, mobile) there are different models available depending on the company. Nobody who chooses a platform is suddenly surprised by their choice’s options. If you want something different, get something different. Apple has every right to control their platform, just as other businesses do. You want a free market? It’s right there, in your choice of ecosystem.

True, however gaming consoles make their profit solely on the software/games Or at least very small profit on the console unit itself. once the DMA come in mid 2022, all companies will have to open their monopolistic walled gardens.
Mac OS has always allowed 3rd party apps, are we now saying that Mac OS has little system security? This doesn’t need to be allowed as default it can be hidden under advance settings this wouldn’t effect any system security.
I can currently can sideload apps but Apple are constantly making this harder, saying when you buy your device your making your choice on ecosystem this idea needs to change people can join this ecosystem then apple changes its beliefs then people are stuck with the changes Apple made. All devices need to be open and to be able to run what ever software the user requires. Really hopping people can keep an open mind on this and not just buy into the Apple propaganda.

 

[Lolhaxsor]

And? That just says they made a bid, regardless of that, it doesn’t mean they had any chance of acquiring Tesla.

If there was talks then this means that Tesla was open to the idea, Elon musk even said that Tim Cook refused to speak to him at one point about a purchase…

https://twitter.com/x/status/1341485211209637889

 

[Lolhaxsor]

I don't think you, nor most people, realise just how valuable to the developers and the end users benefit Apple's security and security hardware is.

I'm a developer and I've been working on a very cool technology that uses machine learning.
The problem we've run up against is that we need to keep the AI in the Cloud even though customers say it would be so much better if done on device.
But we can't, because if we load our AI models on device then there's a real risk of them being stolen, rebundled in another app, and sold by many others.
This is why so many Apps using AI are still done in the Cloud, the Cloud is a secure location.
Yes Apple's already started implementing encrypted models in their ML as of WWDC2020 but it only covers model methods Apple supports and if you remove the security hardware then it doesn't work at all.

See the problem here with progress and innovation being stifled by the stupidity in these demands for cracking open iOS?

Isn't It the job of the developer to develop and innovative better methods of security? If IOS became a public resource/ open source then this would require better security as well as been open, if one developer cant handle this another will.

 

[hans1972]

Such bs macOS has been doing fine for years. This is just fear mongering to protect their billion dollar cash cow.

The macOS security model on the iPhone would be a disaster.

Apple has been tightening macOS for years now, making it more and more inconvenient to install software which Apple has not signed.

 

[hans1972]

I want to point out sideloading is not just an issue of security it’s also about who owns the device I am the owner of the device I should be able to make the decision on what applications I can install on my device. Anyone siting sideloading will compromise their iPhones security is simply misunderstanding what this is actually about.

We aren't misunderstanding at all. We simply believe that you shouldn't be allowed to install the apps you want even if it is your device.

The tight control from Apple is a feature of the iOS ecosystem.

 

[hans1972]

It’s perfectly safe and secure provided you know what you’re installing and from where!

That's the problem.

iOS even provides pretty good protection for those who don't know and don't care and want to be reckless.

 

[hans1972]

If iOS is supposedly a very very secure platform then why is Apple worried about secuirty and privacy. Surely if someone was intent on doing mischief to the point of trying to exploit iOS, surely iOS should prevent such attempts from happening.

The App Store is part of iOS!

Also, security is multi-layered. The App Store is one kind of layered defence.

Nothing is 100% secure and it would be stupid to just relay on the security of sandboxing and the operating system.

 

[iHorseHead]

Looking at these comments, it's as if people feel like Android doesn't exist, that iOS has to be forced to accept sideloading.

Are you sure you're the smart one?

He's smarter, I feel.

 

[iHorseHead]

🤣 iOS users don't need to sideload apps to get tricked or duped and get led into some dark alley.

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Those articles that you posted have never happened, because Apple is perfect and very secure.
Xcode Ghost did not happen either. Apple is the best and very secure. Android is the very opposite. Even Phone app on Android is filled with malware and viruses.

 

[hans1972]

I don’t think that is a real issue. I would imagine that every app is still sandboxed within Apple’s API ecosystem with the exception you can do payments thru 3rd party.

The real issue is that Apple loses control of how they monetize off apps. However believe it or not, most app devs are not malicious

It's the issue for us who wants just one store to get everything.

Also the vetting of Apple provides a first line of defence for stopping almost all of the most obvious bad apps. Hundreds of thousands of them.

A sandbox isn't 100% closed. It can use all the services provided by the operating system including access to contacts, photos, location, files, mail, network, clipboard and even communicate with other apps.

The real issue is that Apple loses control of how they monetize off apps.

Which is fine. Apple taking money from developers isn't my problem.

However believe it or not, most app devs are not malicious

Enough of them are. Millions of them. Many of them will do a lot to make more money.

 

[hans1972]

This anti-sideloading argument by Apple is total BS. They could easily implement a toggle to allow sideloading in a way that only power-users could enable it. If IOS is as trustworthy as Apple says, if a user doesn't allow sideloading (or the default setting is 'off') then why wouldn't that system/user preference still be trusted as well? Funny how other user/system preferences are respected just fine by the OS and don't seem to be hackable.....

It helps with social engineering attacks.

Scenario 1: App in App Store
App ask for access to contacts
User approves
App sends all the contacts to a server
The owners sell the contacts data
Times goes on
Someone discovers this
Apple revokes the app

Scenario 2: App side loaded
App ask for access to contacts
User approves
App sends all the contacts to a server
The owners sell the contacts data
Times goes on
Someone discovers this
????


Or should Apple be allowed to remove a side loaded app? When and under what criteria?
What happens if the developer just makes a new version of the app?

 

[hans1972]

The thing is being able to sideload, wouldn't make your device less secure since you wouldn't sideload.

If popular apps are just available through side loading, you would have to make a tough choice.

Today, you don't have to since most developers are compelled to provide the app in the App Store.