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In 2020, app store sales amount to $60 billion. 30% of that is pocketed by Apple. That is not a pittance. And this is growing in double digit percentages every year. I am not saying apple doesn't deserve to earn money of the iOS platform. But they are not fighting this fight for mere "control".
"That is not a pittance."

To them it is a pittance. I'm not saying Apple doesn't like money, either. Obviously they DO. I just think for this product, control is the overriding concern.

More importantly, Apple has had more than a decade to charge developers an extra fee for side loading applications as you initially suggested (I think it was you).

They haven't done it, and you know they've thought of it, because Apple likes money enough to think of EVERY WAY to monetize its platforms.

What does that tell you? Apple cares more about control than the money in this instance. It's that simple.
 
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Ok. Sideloading advocate here:

I legit have a hard time understanding how anyone can align with Apple on this. I’m going to list my reasons why and I want some to refute each piece by piece.

Why does offering a choice to install apps sideloaded “destroy” security on iPhone for you given that:
- if you feel unsafe sideloading, you don’t have to use it.
- If you worry it will become the only option on some choice apps forcing you to use sideloading:
A - if said apps were so compelling to want to side-load then where is the malware coming from? Was it secretly injected when the developer wasn’t looking? Note this can happen but it’s pretty rare and there are ways to protect against it even with side-loading. The only seeming advantage Apple has in its favour is the ability to review the code directly as opposed to compiled instructions…. But really virus detection is a complex beast and software is often thousands upon thousands of lines of interwoven detailed code. Trying to comb through another developers code to find a virus is like looking for a needle in a haystack. If you think Apple Code Reviewers looks at code manually… scanning everything before approval… you would be extremely disappointed. In truth they run automated scans and if something is detected might review the code. This might seem more secure on the surface than scanning compiled code which is impossible to read at the human level…. But it’s actually quite sophisticated and in many ways looks at code in a more arbitrary sense than a human looking for the words “I am haxorz” written in the bylines.

B - that last argument went so off the rails I doubt you care about part b anymore.

C - sideloading will realistically always be relegated to a niche almost no-one uses except.

- if you worry about grandma sideloading and getting hacked…. I mean that’s probably the only legit argument I can think of since grandma is always getting hacked and frankly I’m tired of trying to teach her how to detect when someone is trying to steal her money. That said, grandma knows she doesn’t know how to use a computer and kind of hates them and calls me every time she thinks she has a virus (which is ironically usually just a dialog she saw telling her she had a virus she saw online that lied to her and tried to get her to install a virus as a result) and knows to run away from such things and never install stuff when stuff like that happens after years of being trained by the leet hackers of the world to not trust anyone.

- Android has a cool method where they bury sideloading in some weird subpage where you pray to the sun gods and enter the Konami code in order to enable sideloading that’s so out of sight/hidden grandma would need to be on the phone to get the hackers walking her through the process step by step to enable it. Or maybe that was for rooting. I don’t remember anymore. Do that Apple. I mean, sure those same people are just gonna accuse you of abusing your power by burying the sideloading feature you didn’t want into some blackhole of hell but frankly: they were going to do that anyway. And I should know cause I’m one of them.
It's their platform, that's why. If you don't like it, there is another product for you. Cleary users love this because they stay with Apple.

I'm amazed that people still try to tell people what to do with their own platform. Don't like Apple's stance on side loading? They're a great Google Pixel with your name on. It's calling you. Will you answer the call?
 
What stuff I get where?
I’m trying to explain what this seemingly weird removal of choice quote comes from, not taking sides here, another way:

Someone wants a 3 wheeled car, not a four wheeled car, not a two wheeled car, not a 3 one with the option to be 4 one day or 2 wheels mode another day. Three and only three with no switches.

Suddenly the government passes a law that says all cars need to be 3 wheels with a fourth one always accesible behind a switch.
The people looking for the most constrained hard-3 version now can’t choose it.

We can discuss why would someone not want the seemingly better 3 (4) flexible version, why be looking for constrains.
Some people like less switches, others like more, others like it simple, others just don’t like change, some people find that switches break.
Also why THIS specific switch between all the hundreds others is the controversial one, maybe because of the impact.
We can also discuss if this is all an Apple power play to drive people their way.

None of which I got a clue of, just hunches and biased hypotheses… however, just in this thread, there’s definitely people wanting it to be like it has been, the “three wheeled and nothing else car” option.
I'm not sure how your use of the government is relevant to this situation. Can you clarify?
 
I’d say Elon musk but don’t think he’s got the time… Another one of Apples big mistakes was not buying Tesla, I can imagine Apple being a multi trillion dollar company right now if they had bought Tesla.
Not that Apple had or has the option to buy it
You are calling Android's vast dominance of the WW(world wide) smartphone OS market rhetoric? Really?

Worldwide Smartphone Shipment OS Market Share Forecast​

Highlights: Android 84.3%, iOS 15.6%, other (rounding to a tenth of a percent is 0)

That may be closer to 6 in 7 (I said 5 in 6). Regardless, let's say it was 5 in 6, or less at 4 in 5. How about a lower 3 in 4? What level of dominance of the smartphone OS market does Android have to have to make the argument: the vast majority loudly insisting the VERY clear minority must do it the dominant way is utter nonsense. That on its face Android's vast (and factual) dominance anecdotally means they (and by extension you) have absolutely no business telling Apple and Apple users what their eco must do. Certainly your side's appeal to authority in the face of Android's dominance is ludicrous.
This wall of nothing addressed just that, nothing, please provide proof that 5 out of 6 are DEMANDING Apple to do anything, you can’t and it’s not true 🙄 You and others are so overly dramatic for no reason other than to defend Apple 🙄
 
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Not that Apple had or has the option to buy it

This wall of nothing addressed just that, nothing, please provide proof that 5 out of 6 are DEMANDING Apple to do anything, you can’t and it’s not true 🙄 You and others are so overly dramatic for no reason other than to defend Apple 🙄
It had its chance… and failed to recognise innovation..

 
According to Apple, 500 reviewers scrutinize 100,000 new and updated apps a week. That works out to 200 apps per reviewer per week, five apps per hour, or one app per 12 minutes, assuming a 40-hour work week and 100 per cent worker efficiency. This is the oversight that Apple provides and is the "rigorous" process that Apple subjects the apps to in the approval process. I am sure Developer Kosta Eleftheriou would disagree with Erik Neuenschwander. Lol!
 
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That's what it'll come to. The various world authorities will legislate to force Apple to open up and, in an effort to protect the public which those governments are supposed to be doing, not Apple, Apple will offer 2 options on iOS new device setup. 1) Status Quo. Locked and App Store only. 2) open to do as you like.
I'll guarantee it'll be something close to 99% who pick (1) and the other 1% will be hackers, geeks and those looking for ways to exploit holes in (1) for nefarious reasons.
The public has 2 power plays. One is in the voting booth. The other is in their wallet. We've had a taste of secure iOS, virtually no one is going to want to give that up now.
Apple could just remove their proprietary security hardware from the device ship a version with no OS and say that’s the one folks should buy if they want openness. ;) Put on whatever store ya want!
 
Give users a choice. That "then switch to Android" crap is just nonsense.
It’s not nonsense, though, it’s the way the world works. IF ALL the folks that wanted sideloading were to stop buying iPhones and ONLY buy Android products, the sales would dictate Apple’s actions.

The majority that wants it only “kinnnnda” wants it, but are still willing to support Apple’s closed system in the interim. If, like large screened phones, it was REALLY important to those people, they’d buy the phone that does what they like and Apple would follow fairly quickly :)
 
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They aren't willing to support it.
Yup, developers aren’t willing to support it.
 
Because most of the people click “i agree” without even reading! So apps will ask you to do these steps to install their app and most of the users will do that without thinking or reading!

Then when problems will start guess who they are going to blame … not XXXCasino for sure!
Imagine the calendar event spam people accept from sites also installing apps on your phone
 
It's their platform, that's why. If you don't like it, there is another product for you. Cleary users love this because they stay with Apple.

I'm amazed that people still try to tell people what to do with their own platform. Don't like Apple's stance on side loading? They're a great Google Pixel with your name on. It's calling you. Will you answer the call?
I know right?

It’s those d$%# developers. They don’t want to develop for Android because they can’t make any money over there. But they want the best of both worlds on iOS. I’m freakin’ sick of iOS developers.

Sorry, but the spotlight needs to be on greedy iOS developers.
 
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The Apple Epic battle was not really about sideloading apps but rather more about Apple trying to dominate the app market by forcing developers to put their apps in the App Store and expecting developers to take a huge cut of their profits to give to Apple while they did nothing to contribute to the development of the app. I think it's just asking for Apple to be fair. Either let developers manage their own payment system and side load apps or need to take less cut from the developers profits.

Everyone going on about Android allowing side loading has nothing to do with this. Android provides the choice and they provide warnings in the operating system if you siled a nap. It's an individual's Choice whether they choose to do that or not and the company is not held responsible or liable.

I hope the courts rule in Epic's favor. Apple shouldn't be allowed to bully by indicating how much cut they take from a developer's profit and saying if you don't like it you don't have to be in our app store. If everyone remembers back to the first iPhone and how it only had Apple exclusive apps and wasn't successful enough until their App Store came out. The iPhone is only as good as it's huge library of apps in its store without that it wouldn't be anything.
 
According to Apple, 500 reviewers scrutinize 100,000 new and updated apps a week. That works out to 200 apps per reviewer per week, five apps per hour, or one app per 12 minutes, assuming a 40-hour work week and 100 per cent worker efficiency. This is the oversight that Apple provides and is the "rigorous" process that Apple subjects the apps to in the approval process. I am sure Developer Kosta Eleftheriou would disagree with Erik Neuenschwander. Lol!
Yep, because I'm 100% sure it is a totally manual process and they don't use any ML-powered automation whatsoever as part of the process to focus their efforts. 🙄
I am by no means stating that automation is flawless - plenty has fallen through the cracks - but it is disingenuous to try to imply that it is a labor-intensive process with a respectable, if imperfect, track record.
 
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I'm not sure how your use of the government is relevant to this situation. Can you clarify?
For the car’s wheels analogy it is what made sense, I think.
For the Apple’s case, don’t know, an ant-trust verdict, a company lawsuit, Epic, Facebook et al party, who knows.

I’m no expert on this, my point is specifically about what the seemingly backwards “side loading means less choice” can be read as.
 
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First line, all I need to hear. You have zero idea what I do and/or who I support. Good bye.

Typical. Why not EXPLAIN instead of “ You don’t know me BYE!” That just makes you look worse you know. Like you DONT actually have something to back up your statement.
 
if you feel unsafe sideloading, you don’t have to use it.

Can you ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE 100% that NO apps will be removed from the App Store? Those saying you won’t be forced to are not thinking clearly. If I want Fortnite, I will have NO CHOICE but to side load.
 
It’s not nonsense, though, it’s the way the world works. IF ALL the folks that wanted sideloading were to stop buying iPhones and ONLY buy Android products, the sales would dictate Apple’s actions.

The majority that wants it only “kinnnnda” wants it, but are still willing to support Apple’s closed system in the interim. If, like large screened phones, it was REALLY important to those people, they’d buy the phone that does what they like and Apple would follow fairly quickly :)

I agree. If the market requires this, Apple will change or just let the iPhone die. I don’t think forcing Apple to do this is appropriate. Let the market decide.
 
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You are calling Android's vast dominance of the WW(world wide) smartphone OS market rhetoric? Really?

Worldwide Smartphone Shipment OS Market Share Forecast​

Highlights: Android 84.3%, iOS 15.6%, other (rounding to a tenth of a percent is 0)

That may be closer to 6 in 7 (I said 5 in 6). Regardless, let's say it was 5 in 6, or less at 4 in 5. How about a lower 3 in 4? What level of dominance of the smartphone OS market does Android have to have to make the argument: the vast majority loudly insisting the VERY clear minority must do it the dominant way is utter nonsense. That on its face Android's vast (and factual) dominance anecdotally means they (and by extension you) have absolutely no business telling Apple and Apple users what their eco must do. Certainly your side's appeal to authority in the face of Android's dominance is ludicrous.

Not what I said. Kindly stop playing it out of context.
On the other hand thanks for the link to the idc article. What I am reading is that you are using data (incorrectly) from it to support an opinion (yours) claim.
 
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If everyone remembers back to the first iPhone and how it only had Apple exclusive apps and wasn't successful enough until their App Store came out. The iPhone is only as good as it's huge library of apps in its store without that it wouldn't be anything.
Wasn’t successful enough? It was WILDLY successful from day one. It was SO successful that the Android we have today owes a LOT to the vision that Apple brought forward. I mean, really, every smartphone sold today is just some version of iPhone. :)

non-Apple apps was the icing on the cake, but don’t ever be fooled that those early generation fart apps were what drove the iPhone. ;)
 
Nope it’s not, because if I decide to invent a smartphone to compete with Apple, the marketshare of other Androids won’t help me to achieve that goal.

It would be just me with my Smartphone(@0%) vs Apple. You can’t simply group non related companies , just because Android is being licensed to them. The only “real” Android Phone is Google Pixel.

Anyway Google is also being sued for enforcing shady anticompetitive licensing practices to manufacturers.
The current smartphone market is not about device vs device, though. It's one os vs. another, ios vs android.
 
What stuff I get where?
I’m trying to explain what this seemingly weird removal of choice quote comes from, not taking sides here, another way:

Someone wants a 3 wheeled car, not a four wheeled car, not a two wheeled car, not a 3 one with the option to be 4 one day or 2 wheels mode another day. Three and only three with no switches.

Suddenly the government passes a law that says all cars need to be 3 wheels with a fourth one always accesible behind a switch.
The people looking for the most constrained hard-3 version now can’t choose it.

We can discuss why would someone not want the seemingly better 3 (4) flexible version, why be looking for constrains.
Some people like less switches, others like more, others like it simple, others just don’t like change, some people find that switches break.
Also why THIS specific switch between all the hundreds others is the controversial one, maybe because of the impact.
We can also discuss if this is all an Apple power play to drive people their way.

None of which I got a clue of, just hunches and biased hypotheses… however, just in this thread, there’s definitely people wanting it to be like it has been, the “three wheeled and nothing else car” option.

People aren't buying an iPhone because "it cannot sideload". I think I get what you are trying to say however I am not corelating that to why buy iOS or Android, from a consumer perspective. IMO this whole "Danger Will Robinson! Danger!" that is being bandied about by Apple and others regarding iOS sideloading is more of a marketing play than an actual issue. I can imagine that Apple wishes it would just fade away.

btw, my Android has far less "switches" when it comes to settings than my iPhone. ;)
 
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Ok. Sideloading advocate here:

I legit have a hard time understanding how anyone can align with Apple on this. I’m going to list my reasons why and I want some to refute each piece by piece.

Why does offering a choice to install apps sideloaded “destroy” security on iPhone for you given that:
- if you feel unsafe sideloading, you don’t have to use it.
- If you worry it will become the only option on some choice apps forcing you to use sideloading:
A - if said apps were so compelling to want to side-load then where is the malware coming from? Was it secretly injected when the developer wasn’t looking? Note this can happen but it’s pretty rare and there are ways to protect against it even with side-loading. The only seeming advantage Apple has in its favour is the ability to review the code directly as opposed to compiled instructions…. But really virus detection is a complex beast and software is often thousands upon thousands of lines of interwoven detailed code. Trying to comb through another developers code to find a virus is like looking for a needle in a haystack. If you think Apple Code Reviewers looks at code manually… scanning everything before approval… you would be extremely disappointed. In truth they run automated scans and if something is detected might review the code. This might seem more secure on the surface than scanning compiled code which is impossible to read at the human level…. But it’s actually quite sophisticated and in many ways looks at code in a more arbitrary sense than a human looking for the words “I am haxorz” written in the bylines.

B - that last argument went so off the rails I doubt you care about part b anymore.

C - sideloading will realistically always be relegated to a niche almost no-one uses except.

- if you worry about grandma sideloading and getting hacked…. I mean that’s probably the only legit argument I can think of since grandma is always getting hacked and frankly I’m tired of trying to teach her how to detect when someone is trying to steal her money. That said, grandma knows she doesn’t know how to use a computer and kind of hates them and calls me every time she thinks she has a virus (which is ironically usually just a dialog she saw telling her she had a virus she saw online that lied to her and tried to get her to install a virus as a result) and knows to run away from such things and never install stuff when stuff like that happens after years of being trained by the leet hackers of the world to not trust anyone.

- Android has a cool method where they bury sideloading in some weird subpage where you pray to the sun gods and enter the Konami code in order to enable sideloading that’s so out of sight/hidden grandma would need to be on the phone to get the hackers walking her through the process step by step to enable it. Or maybe that was for rooting. I don’t remember anymore. Do that Apple. I mean, sure those same people are just gonna accuse you of abusing your power by burying the sideloading feature you didn’t want into some blackhole of hell but frankly: they were going to do that anyway. And I should know cause I’m one of them.
Firstly, and someone has already beaten me to my reply but I’ll re-iterate. You should be very pleased that you are a technophile who knows exactly what they are doing and wants ultimate flexibility from the Apple platform to side load apps - but you don’t explain what apps they are - what you do with them and why you can’t get that app on the Android platform which is well served by Google and Samsung to name but two vendors.

I’d like to throw it back to you - why do you want a side loaded app on iPhone?

I ask as you look like a tech savvy hipster dude who knows his stuff - so why choose Apple and not Samsung Galaxy or Google Pixel? At the top end they apparently have better cameras, more cores, more RAM, bigger screens, more flexibility, USB-C charging, fingerprint sensors AND face sensors, external storage slots, maybe even a replaceable battery - the list goes on…

I’d have thought the tech savvy who like to have control of their own hardware wouldn’t even waste time with the Apple walled garden and be sitting on their Android phone of choice rather than trying to tear down the ’walled garden’.

You point to Apple not going through code line by line for submissions to the App Store. For side loading there’s no checking at all. Apps could get written with all sorts of slackness and lack of adherence to style guides. This will surely introduce more bugs, perhaps adware as well, doesn’t the App Store have a kill switch in case something turns out to be really bad? There’s no such kill switch on side loaded apps. My main point against these is that some badly written programs that drain battery or eat up available RAM wouldn’t get caught either.

The point of the App Store is that Apple take responsibility for the apps on it and the average user is happy with that. Yes, bad stuff can get through - I recall the recent story about some apps built with a dodgy download of XCode - but what are you going to do about apps that run out of control and leave a frustrated iPhone Pro Max user with a 2 hour battery life and space heater in his pocket? Or the ones that eat all the RAM up and end up making other apps on the phone crash?

Imagine if there was the kind of free for all that you see on macOS and Windows where software can be installed with an administrator password to an iPhone, and if various software can get installed much easier - perhaps even without the realisation of the unsuspecting user? This software might be innocuous, but people of all kinds will be looking for the magic routine where software gets installed easier than going to the one App Store.

Imagine what sort of stuff could get installed by unsuspecting users who just ok their way through multitudes of dialogues, and how long will it be before weaponised malware gets through alongside the annoying or badly written programs?

Who gets the blame then? This is reputation control for Apple now because the developer isn’t going to get the blame - it’ll be Apple - just like how Android will get the blame for various software on that platform not playing nice and making the phone crash, slow down, battery last just an hour after just 3 months, I’m sure Apple don’t want any part of that.

This is especially the case because their hardware is specifically optimised for efficiency. When Android phones comparisons were all the rage and people would say some Samsung phone was better because it had more cores, more RAM, and bigger battery - why do you think Apple was able to claim better multitasking, faster performance, and longer WiFi browsing time? It’s the tightly integrated software which helps make this happen.

And then let’s not forget about the long suffering folks who don’t want to spend hours on technical support with ‘grandma’. You mention a grandma but we don’t know if that’s literal or figurative.

I’ll guess you might not be aware that people will be recommending or buying iPhones for family members specifically because they DON’T want to be technical support forever. And not everyone is going to have the benefit of a 20 something hipster tech dude who has the time and inclination to talk them through every single last problem.

And if they do get a call asking about some issue, the fact that the built-in apps are universal is a massive time saver when trying to talk ‘grandma’ through stuff Rather than trying to figure out of they are using Chrome, Firefox, Safari, Opera, or Outlook, Mail, Signal, Telegram, What’s App etc.

If you remove that universality by default you’re potentially dragging Apple’s iOS platform down to the level of Android. Less trust = fewer people buying the iPhone and subsequently because it’s just as slow and buggy as that Android rubbish that no longer gets support after 1-2 years of ownership.

It’s all very well hiding some sort of safety switch deep in the settings, reminds me a bit of the Windows S mode - that’s a one way deal - you can remove it but never put it back on. But seriously, this is just going to add support costs all round.

Perhaps Apple need to evaluate how much it is costing to put annual iOS updates on a phone for 4-7 years rather than 18 months. The end user wont like Apple putting a price on that.

But then these could be the same users whining about not being able to add their own external storage because Apple do ‘rip off’ prices, only to then complain about Android phones being POS because the 10$ 256Gb fake SD card from eBay they slotted in their Android phone caused it to run slowly and crash all the time.

That’s an argument for another thread through - this is software.
 
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