Apple Executives Discuss M2 Chips, Gaming on Mac, Intel and More

[ilikewhey]

Yeah for me on my gaming PC, it was every other for GPU and every 3rd or 4th for CPU. I just gave my son my gaming PC, 11700k, 3070, 64gig of DDR4 3200. Had I kept it, I would have probably gotten a 5070 at some point and maybe a new CPU at the same time.

definitely, plus used gpu market is just as fluid as say used iphone market, so much so that swappa even added a section just for gpu sales.

there are some very misinformed comments on here stipulating that upgrading pc is like upgrading macs, where you throw the baby out with the bath water when new gen comes out. however as you and i both know on the pc building side, there are so many components that can be carried over without sacrificing performance.

 

[AgeOfSpiracles]

that is no way true, on my previous i7 960 nehalem i was able to upgrade from 7800gtx > gtx 970 > gtx 1070, thats 3 iterations of gpu on one chipset, and when you game on 4k resolution the cpu plays a very small part. in fact on ryzen, you can pretty much stick to one chipset for longer since newer ryzen cpu are backwards compatible up to a point.

As someone who also still has a functioning socket 1366 machine, I can tell you that the CPU absolutely became the bottleneck well right around that time (nvidia 10-series, amd R9). Which is fine-ish. 6 years is a decent run, but it wasn't cheap to build initially, and GPU upgrades weren't cheap either (back then, resale value was a fraction of today's). While there's a little bit more you can squeak out of that chipset (a couple of Xeon server chips that were compatible, cheap on ebay, and a slight performance bump versus a 950 or 960), once about 2016 rolled around, you were SOL, because 1366 was dead after one generation.

 

[ilikewhey]

As someone who also still has a functioning socket 1366 machine, I can tell you that the CPU absolutely became the bottleneck well right around that time (nvidia 10-series, amd R9). Which is fine-ish. 6 years is a decent run, but it wasn't cheap to build initially, and GPU upgrades weren't cheap either (back then, resale value was a fraction of today's). While there's a little bit more you can squeak out of that chipset (a couple of Xeon server chips that were compatible, cheap on ebay, and a slight performance bump versus a 950 or 960), once about 2016 rolled around, you were SOL, because 1366 was dead after one generation.

i admit the 1366 was a pretty piss poor example for longevity, the sandybridge gen would be a much better example, but thats what i got so i'm going to use it for my anecdotal 😂

however, regardless that the 1366 was a piss poor example, the fact that it carried my gaming needs from 2009 all the way to 2018 when i finally upgraded to the 8600k. and i was able to haul it from a 8800 series all the way up to the gtx 1000 series, without seeing significant bottleneck from the cpu side for 1440p to 4k gaming, is a real testament to the fact that you don't need to overhaul your entire build for every new gen of intel or amd that comes out. the cpu just progresses so much slower than the gpu side and thats a known facts for the past 2 decades.

 

[AustinIllini]

Sure if all you do is web browsing and reading mail, once you start doing anything related to 3D or video postproduction, the mac doesn't stand a chance.

If you do web browsing and reading email, most PCs have a measly 3 hour battery life.

I do a lot of video editing, too.

 

[Manuel010180]

What I forgo to say is, look at Nintendo and Switch. The games aren’t so look great like an Uncharted, Horizon Zero Dawn etc. But the games are successful. I believe it doesn’t matter if the game looks unbelievabl, when the rest of the game is boring. What I want to say is, Apple only need to bring games the people love. Not why the world looks like The real world, or you have to do a lot of things (they are redundant). The games must be…..when you look at the clock and thing „oh f…. the time is running to fast. I played really 4 hours? Hmmmm sh… I have to sleep but the next day I will beat it“

 

[sam_dean]

If you do web browsing and reading email, most PCs have a measly 3 hour battery life.

I do a lot of video editing, too.

Many have outdate information.

Performance and Efficiency cores make all the difference.

Such tech is new with Intel and AMD relative to Apple chips.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

Apple needs to work with Valve to get Proton to macOS.

It's getting pretty absurd how Linux is now in a position where it can almost completely replace Windows for gaming purposes thanks to Proton, while macOS is being completely left out of that major breakthrough.

And even as far as native Mac games goes, things are only getting worse. The rapid-fire combination of throwing away 32-bit support, the migration to ARM, and the notarization requirements have completely alienated many game developers who used to support Macs but now don't want to bother anymore.

And as this interview shows, Apple is still completely oblivious to these issues, continuing to talk about Metal, which absolutely NOBODY in the game industry wants to even look at. Support Vulkan as a native-tier API or shut up!!

Sigh...

Honestly at this point if you're a Mac user, just buy a Steam Deck to use as your gaming device. It costs as much as a PS5 and is portable. I know a lot of PC gamers who use Macbooks they stopped using their main rig to exclusively use a Steam Deck because of how convenient it is.

 

[jimbobb24]

Macs will never be great gaming platforms unless they fix the pricing. For half the price you can always get Windows machines with much better graphics.

(Yes, 96GB of VRAM sounds attractive, but the truth is most people will get the 8/16GB configuration and there will be so few people gaming with 96GB VRAM that game developers will probably ignore them.)

The Apple TV could be great. Even as a game streaming device it could be great.

 

[antibolo]

Honestly at this point if you're a Mac user, just buy a Steam Deck to use as your gaming device. It costs as much as a PS5 and is portable. I know a lot of PC gamers who use Macbooks they stopped using their main rig to exclusively use a Steam Deck because of how convenient it is.

I don't care enough about video games anymore to buy a dedicated gaming device. In any case, the point isn't about me, it's about how Apple is being stupid with everything video games, as usual. Everything the Steam Deck does thanks to Proton should also be on Mac, but it isn't, and that's a massive wasted opportunity.

 

[timber]

sure, my 8600k was 199, mobo was 120ish, ram was 200 cause i wanted 64gb of ram, gtx 1080 costed me 600 at the time, sold it for 650 during the mining boom, then got the rtx 2080 for 800, and most recently got a 3080 for 800, threw the 2080 into a media box for living room. all in all with case(50 bucks) psu(60 bucks) samsung 980 nvme 1tb (80 bucks)and other miscellaneous parts i would say around 600 bucks without GPU, reason i'm leaving gpu out of equation cause i wanna give a base figure that does not need to be replaced anytime soon, now if you factor in gpu cost that literally doubles in performance every generation. the overall cost is around 2k for the past 6 years.

since we are discussing gaming here, i'm going to use gaming as the applied method of usage.

upgrading to the next generation everytime a new platform comes out is not a more viable solution, in fact the opposite, if you swap platform every new gen comes out you have to reinstall windows, rip out the entire board, re-doing the wiring harness. all that for marginal 10-15% marginal gain on the ipc. the way you handle upgrading your pc is definitely not the norm in the pc building community.

People that don't build their PC have no idea how cost effective it is.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

I don't care enough about video games anymore to buy a dedicated gaming device. In any case, the point isn't about me, it's about how Apple is being stupid with everything video games, as usual. Everything the Steam Deck does thanks to Proton should also be on Mac, but it isn't, and that's a massive wasted opportunity.

You can use the Steam Deck for more than just gaming you know, since it is a full PC in a handheld form factor. There's a DJ using a Steam Deck to control their DJ rig.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1617431346569412609

Even cooler, UCLA is using a Steam Deck to control their new robots.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1611885932202033155

 

[InuNacho]

Adding new cards may seem useful, but its not always as cost effective as some suggest. You have to then add that cost to the cost of the original kit, and with advances in technology its often not as viable as it seems.

Tell that to the folks with 2010 Mac Pros.

 

[GFLPraxis]

Unreal Engine 5.1 provides experimental support for M1/M2

Running Unreal Engine 5.1 On Apple M1/M2 Hardware –

As of Unreal Engine 5.1, UE has support for the Apple Silicon (M1/M2 chips). Unfortunately you have to build from source to test it yourself.

gamefromscratch.com

It is not 100% there yet, for example the nanite system is quite unstable. But it is heading in the right direction.

Now Apple needs to add built-in ray tracing and other advanced features to the GPU (rumors have some of that planned for M3).

But I agree with what others have commented: Apple needs to buy one of the bigger game studios, like EA.

I think Apple would run into regulator issues. Apple buying EA to force all their titles into being MacOS exclusive would reduce competition. Regulators are already likely to block Microsoft’s Activision acquisition attempt.

The better move would be for Apple to pay EA money to make all of their titles MacOS compatible for the next five years, and make some games MacOS first. Once sufficient critical mass of user base and tooling is established, it will continue on naturally.

 

[antibolo]

You can use the Steam Deck for more than just gaming you know, since it is a full PC in a handheld form factor.

Yeah I know that, I still have no need for one.

 

[TheMacDaddy1]

Quest 2 has sold 30 million units in the span of two years. There are as many Quest 2s as there are PS5s. There's money in VR lmao.

And the PS5 will go on to sell 80-100 million if not more.

 

[dgdosen]

The Apple TV could be great. Even as a game streaming device it could be great.

Won't streaming be much more an option with ubiquitous WiFi 6E starting to roll out?

That could make a case for a gaming focused Apple Studio-like device - streaming to laptops, tvs, handhelds, headsets?

 

[Tdude96]

🙄 Yeah yeah pricing blabla same ol thing that you just can't wait to parrot out again like pavlov's dog at the ring of a bell. There are users of highly specced macs who want to game on the same machine without having to buy another giganto tower. There are people with lower end machines who'd seriously consider paying to upgrade because it's cheaper than buying another computer almost solely for gaming. Portability is aweome on these devices. The GPU is pretty damn powerful at this point if only people would write games on it. There windows users who'd switch to a mac if gaming is great there, despite the higher cost of entry. There's money to be made for sure, just gotta fix the chicken/egg thing. Users/devs first. Seems like their user base is growing (albeit slowly) if you look at number of computes shipped.

I agree. I'd engage in more games if they were available for Mac.

I used to do MS exclusively, then eventually it became just for gaming, but I came to despise everything about it and stopped that too. Everything else (except having a broad choice of games) is better on Macs.

About half my friends are in the same boat, but not willing to take that last step yet. They hang onto a MS machine just for games. Only one has gone the same route as me so far. The other half haven't tried a Mac.

 

[MallardDuck]

Gaming on the mac will remain second class until apple either ports DirectX, buys a gaming studio, or funds ports. It doesn't matter how good the chip is (and it's still well behind discrete GPU cards), or how amazing Metal is, if there simply isn't enough market share and demand to justify the investment by the studios.

eGPU support is table-stakes for serious gaming.

Although cloud-gaming may very well superseed a substantial portion of on-machine gaming. That's the wild card - Apple could launch a new paid service, fund ports of games to it, as a future offering. That'd be a (pun intended) game changer.

 

[MallardDuck]

Quest 2 has sold 30 million units in the span of two years. There are as many Quest 2s as there are PS5s. There's money in VR lmao.

I saw a stat recently that something like 50% of them were used for about 30 days then go back in the box.

There is zero chance that a $3K apple AR headset makes any headway as a gaming device.

 

[MallardDuck]

I agree. I'd engage in more games if they were available for Mac.

I used to do MS exclusively, then eventually it became just for gaming, but I came to despise everything about it and stopped that too. Everything else (except having a broad choice of games) is better on Macs.

About half my friends are in the same boat, but not willing to take that last step yet. They hang onto a MS machine just for games. Only one has gone the same route as me so far. The other half haven't tried a Mac.

This is why I got a shadow.tech account. best of both worlds. It's not cheap, but it's cheaper than trying to build and keep a gaming pc current.

 

[WLSON]

When are we getting bootcamp? I'm not buying one until that's available.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

I saw a stat recently that something like 50% of them were used for about 30 days then go back in the box.

Citation needed as the Quest 2 is the most dominant PCVR headset with over 50% of all VR headsets on PC being Quest 2s, and that's just Quest 2s. When you add Meta's older headsets that number jumps to over 70%. Their dominance has become such a problem that a lot of VR devs are skipping supporting other HMDs and focusing on just the Quest 2 since that's where the money is, and it's gonna stay that way unless PSVR 2 delivers, or the Valve Deckard comes out.

There is zero chance that a $3K apple AR headset makes any headway as a gaming device.

Probably because the Apple Reality Pro isn't a gaming device, they're marketing it towards developers and enterprise first hence the big price tag. The consumer Apple HMD isn't gonna be for a while.

 

[MallardDuck]

When are we getting bootcamp? I'm not buying one until that's available.

Ask Microsoft. Until they license windows 11 on ARM Macs, there's nothing Apple can do.

Even then, it's questionable if the Mac GPU would have all the features that high-end DirectX games expect/need.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

When are we getting bootcamp? I'm not buying one until that's available.

Ask Microsoft as they're the reason Bootcamp is gone. They have an exclusivity deal for Windows for ARM with Qualcomm so until Microsoft decides to bring Windows for ARM to the new Macs, Bootcamp stays gone.

Alternatively, just wait for Asahi Linux to finish GPU Acceleration and just dualboot that so you can get access to Steam Proton.

 

[MallardDuck]

Citation needed as the Quest 2 is the most dominant PCVR headset with over 50% of all VR headsets on PC being Quest 2s, and that's just Quest 2s. When you add Meta's older headsets that number gets higher. Their dominance has become such a problem that a lot of VR devs are skipping supporting other HMDs and focusing on just the Quest 2 since that's where the money is, and it's gonna stay that way until PSVR 2 comes out or the Valve Deckard.



Probably because the Apple Reality Pro isn't a gaming device, they're marketing it towards developers and enterprise first hence the big price tag. The consumer Apple HMD isn't gonna be for a while.

Yeah, I can't remember where I heard it...wish I could. And fair point on the consumer headset, but it still comes down to content/software, and unless Apple pays for ports, we'll get iOS games, but not AAA games. If there's no apps/games, there's no hardware sales. I wonder about what use cases they're targeting that 3k unit for....still haven't figured out where it fits in the market.