Apple Expected to Adopt Keyboard With Scissor Mechanism for Upcoming 16-inch MacBook Pro

[cult hero]

What fetish for adapters? They want everyone to use USB-C or wireless. They don’t want you using adapters.

Also, adapters are a thing when you’re consistently pushing new connector types. For better and worse, Apple goes all or nothing on new connector types with some regularity.

In the late 90s I dealt with plenty of legacy port to USB-A adapters—serial, parallel, and PS/2. Video has been an issue forever everywhere. We STILL need VGA adapters for plenty of things in the age of DisplayPort.

What I don’t get is the constant whining over adapters like it’s a big deal. With USB-C I can carry one small port replicator that is customized for me needs. Need a lot of USB? Need multiple video outs? Need multiple Ethernet ports? Need eSATA and FireWire?

Instead of being stuck with what the manufacturer thought I needed, I can bring as many or as few ports as I need. And in most cases I can do so with one multiport adapter. With the constant moaning you would think people were carrying bags of adapters the size of hiking packs. If you’re already carrying a charger, you have the bag space.

I see things all the time like, “Well I need Ethernet!” Okay. So. Bring Ethernet. I still regularly need serial and FireWire. I have no asinine expectation that the port must be a physical part of the computer. When I need FireWire I use an adapter (two actually). My spine hasn’t collapsed under the stress yet.

 

[cult hero]

Then why does the king of the adaptors not make a mag safe adapter that inserts between the usb c port and the usb c cable?

I actually mentioned this before and I agree with the sentiment. I had two spare MagSafe chargers when I got my 2016 MBP. I would have rather paid for an overpriced adapter than had to get a spare even more overpriced charger.

This adapter would have allowed people to use the charger plugs on Thunderbolt and LED Cinema displays. They made MagSafe 1 to MagSafe 2 adapters for that very purpose!

I have no good answer either. I find Apple’s “commitment” to the environment to stop whenever they can squeeze the consumer. It’s pretty two-faced. Why let me reuse a charger when you can make me buy a new one!

 

[cmaier]

Ok, this wording makes sense to me now.

I don’t think Apple care about people using adapters or not. It is completely up to user to strangle a MacBook Pro with three docks and a ton of “legacy” devices or use a MacBook Pro without connecting to anything but charging cable.

And, based on how Apple provides third party cable solutions, they want people move to use more USB-C devices rather than old ports (including not so old USB-A port). USB-C to USB-A cable is sold by Belkin for example.

Precisely.

 

[Analog Kid]

Your logic is flawed! The YouTubers came to the same conclusion the butterfly keyboards just weren't holding up! The move they where pushing was going back to the older scissor keyboard which had a better track record!

Thats whats coming! A variation of the older scissor keyboard. Now did they mess that up? Only time will tell!

Oh, the YouTubers spoke. You should have told me that from the beginning. If it's on YouTube, it has to be true...

Not sure what that has to do with your original line of reasoning about the warranty, but I'm sure someone on YouTube could explain it to me...

 

[smirking]

Why a smaller trackpad? I have seen a lot of people mention that but I have literally never found myself saying, "Wow, it's inconvenient to have a large trackpad." Maybe my dinky hands never bump it?

I've owned a 2016 and 2018 model and I'm still having problems with that trackpad. I have very fleshy hands and it's pretty much not possible for me to keep my palms off of the trackpad.

The palm rejection works, but it also results in actual attempts to use the trackpad getting supressed for me. It sometimes takes me two or three tries to get two finger scrolling to work because I don't realize that part of my other palm is in contact with the trackpad. It's an annoyance and not a deal breaker. I automatically lift my hands slightly when I need to use the trackpad most of the time, but sometimes I forget.

 

[ITCentralPoint]

Maybe 2020 will be the time where we will see the first Apple Hybrid. Where we could have an iPad and a MacBook Pro in one device. The iPad would be the screen, and it could attach to a keyboard and mouse as Surface Book 2. This way we dont have to buy 2 separate devices while having the best of the two worlds in one.
In the end Apple will charge us the same as buying both devices in one, so they wont worry about that

 

[Shirasaki]

Maybe 2020 will be the time where we will see the first Apple Hybrid. Where we could have an iPad and a MacBook Pro in one device. The iPad would be the screen, and it could attach to a keyboard and mouse as Surface Book 2. This way we dont have to buy 2 separate devices while having the best of the two worlds in one.
In the end Apple will charge us the same as buying both devices in one, so they wont worry about that

Assuming this hybrid is a device with 256GB storage. The price of a 12.9” iPad Pro 2018 is A$1969, and MacBook Pro 2019 with four USB-C port (256GB) costs A$2699. So, Apple can easily charge this hybrid device with 1969+2699 which is A$4668 in total. Hmm, sounds a bit stretched, but for a hybrid it might worth it as we have a detachable screen running iOS and a dock running macOS. Might as well just be a fantastic experience to use such device.

 

[Hanson Eigilson]

In a previous note, Kuo said that the scissor mechanism that Apple will use will improve the typing experience by offering longer key travel and better durability by adopting a glass fiber for a reinforced structure. A keyboard with a scissor mechanism will be thicker than the butterfly keyboard, but Kuo believes that most users won't be able to tell the difference.

Is glass fiber reinforced plastic actually a good material to use for a sliding parts such a keyboard leavers ?
Seems like such an unnecessarily compromised materials choice, they might coat it I don't know, but looking at closeups of previous butterfly leavers it doesn't look like it to me, did anyone do a scratch test on it ?

 

[gnipgnop]

Your logic is flawed! The YouTubers came to the same conclusion the butterfly keyboards just weren't holding up! The move they where pushing was going back to the older scissor keyboard which had a better track record!

Nobody can provide a reliability track record for either the older scissor models or the newer butterfly models or for PC laptops that use scissor mechanisms. There aren't any hard numbers, just anecdotes. Nobody really knows what the industry standard for keyboard "reliability" actually is either. Are the butterfly repair numbers really significantly worse than the scissor for Apple? Are Apple's butterfly repair numbers worse than scissor PC laptops? What percentage of repairs or failures would fall within an acceptable industry standard for the keyboard? Nobody can answer those questions.

 

[Jcxa]

What fetish for adapters? They want everyone to use USB-C or wireless. They don’t want you using adapters.

Hmmm, My lessor point that Apple does indeed has a dongle fetish can be debated 'until the cows come home.'
My main point was to suggest a way to bring back Mag Safe functionally without permanently losing a USB C port.

 

[DanBig]

Nobody can provide a reliability track record for either the older scissor models or the newer butterfly models or for PC laptops that use scissor mechanisms. There aren't any hard numbers, just anecdotes. Nobody really knows what the industry standard for keyboard "reliability" actually is either. Are the butterfly repair numbers really significantly worse than the scissor for Apple? Are Apple's butterfly repair numbers worse than scissor PC laptops? What percentage of repairs or failures would fall within an acceptable industry standard for the keyboard? Nobody can answer those questions.

As Apple does not disclose its repair data for any issue you just can't get concrete data to work off of.

But! You can ask independent repair houses and get an idea from them. If you look at the questions asked on forums you'll find quite a few cases which clearly point to a defect in the butterfly design.

Is the scissor design better? The kind of failures you mostly find with them is liquid damage, you just don't find many discrete key failures to the extent you find in the butterfly keyboards. The more often used keys like A,E, S, R, Shift & space bar are the common ones that fail. This is not the case with the scissor design.

So it doesn't take much effort to conclude the design is weak.

My personal experience also come in here as I had three systems all of which failed with keyboard issues. I don't eat or drink near my systems so it wasn't crumbs or dirt messing them up and two had the exact same keys fail. I went back to my older 2015 after wasting time and money with the 2016 & 2017 models. I also found the keyboard was just not comfortable and the touchpad palm rejection got in the way and sensitivity was not as good.

None of my systems from 2011 onward to the 2015 had issues with there keyboards that's over 7 systems and I use them hard! In fact my still working 2012 uni is still running without a single key failure.

 

[DanBig]

Oh, the YouTubers spoke. You should have told me that from the beginning. If it's on YouTube, it has to be true...

Not sure what that has to do with your original line of reasoning about the warranty, but I'm sure someone on YouTube could explain it to me...

Ha! There are good ones and bad ones! I don't disagree!

The issue was more on how Apple see's them and the people who follow them. Bad reviews always take a bite. The shear number of people effected is the root issue here. Apple will of course stay only a small number are effected, they can't openly say they have a bigger problem.

All they can do is try to reduce the risks. The membrane was a good idea! At least it prevented junk from getting too deep under the key. But the real issue is the constant flexing of the butterfly mechanism its self. The dimensions are so tight for the butterfly to work properly, overtime the part just fatigues! In addition the dome switch element has a tendency to bounce which causes the repeating, hopefully the new shape will reduce that.

The truth is the number of key strikes your keyboard gets and which keys are the most used is whats at the heart of the matter.

Someone who is a lightweight user will likely not find any problems with their system! Someone who is hammering on their keyboard hours a day are the ones that are encountering the failures. Sure food and other junk getting caught under the key is a factor too as well as liquid spills.

 

[cmaier]

Ha! There are good ones and bad ones! I don't disagree!

The issue was more on how Apple see's them and the people who follow them. Bad reviews always take a bite. The shear number of people effected is the root issue here. Apple will of course stay only a small number are effected, they can't openly say they have a bigger problem.

All they can do is try to reduce the risks. The membrane was a good idea! At least it prevented junk from getting too deep under the key. But the real issue is the constant flexing of the butterfly mechanism its self. The dimensions are so tight for the butterfly to work properly, overtime the part just fatigues! In addition the dome switch element has a tendency to bounce which causes the repeating, hopefully the new shape will reduce that.

The truth is the number of key strikes your keyboard gets and which keys are the most used is whats at the heart of the matter.

Someone who is a lightweight user will likely not find any problems with their system! Someone who is hammering on their keyboard hours a day are the ones that are encountering the failures. Sure food and other junk getting caught under the key is a factor too as well as liquid spills.

Nah. On our machines the B key, the 4 key, and the space bar died. There have been a ton of reports about the b key and keys in that area. It’s not so much which keys you use the most. Also, many reports that keys intermittently fail when the machine is hot - possibly due to flexing of the overall structure. It’s just a mess.

 

[majorsl]

You need to be wearing a full Hazmat suit and make sure you only use the keyboard in a Laminar Flow Cabinet except for the three times a day when you hold your laptop upside down and blast it with compressed air.

Excellent advice. I knew I was missing something. So, basically, "you're typing on it wrong."

 

[Peperino]

I have no good answer either. I find Apple’s “commitment” to the environment to stop whenever they can squeeze the consumer. It’s pretty two-faced. Why let me reuse a charger when you can make me buy a new one!

Apple stopped caring about the environment long time ago in favor of creating more revenue from its users.

- That is why they switched the entire line up of Macbooks to all soldering components making them disposable appliances rather than "Pro" laptops. Not only if a basic component fails, you need to incur in super-expensive repairs, that you might as well have to trash the computer and buy a new one.

Look at how long took Apple to create a new Mac Pro that is upgradable (but unaffordable for the common user).
Six years!!
Look at how long took Apple to stop using a lame keyboard butterfly design that if a single key fails you need to change the entire keyboard and possibly the motherboard as well.
4 generations.

That is how much they care about the environment.

 

[cmaier]

Apple stopped caring about the environment long time ago in favor of creating more revenue from its users.

- That is why they switched the entire line up of Macbooks to all soldering components making them disposable appliances rather than "Pro" laptops. Not only if a basic component fails, you need to incur in super-expensive repairs, that you might as well have to trash the computer and buy a new one.

Look at how long took Apple to create a new Mac Pro that is upgradable (but unaffordable for the common user).
Six years!!
Look at how long took Apple to stop using a lame keyboard butterfly design that if a single key fails you need to change the entire keyboard and possibly the motherboard as well.
4 generations.

That is how much they care about the environment.

Instead of “trashing” the computer give it back to them and they will reuse and recycle as appropriate.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Please offer a version with no touchbar.

 

[kreasonos]

How about they get rid of the bezels on the 13” for you, and they keep the 15” footprint for me?

Nah, 13" is too small as it is now. 15" without bezels would be a good foot print. Or just got to a 14"

 

[throAU]

Things that I find nice to have on a premium pro laptop:

1. Connect to a 5K monitor with a single cable.
2. Connect to an eGPU or other PCIe devices.
3. Connect to an SSD RAID array.
4. Connect to multiple 10G Ethernet adapters.
5. Connect to true docking stations.
6. Connect to PCIe breakout boxes that give me access on my laptop to desktop hardware.

All of these seem vastly superior to having it slightly easier to plug in a charger.

AS do i. Though i would also argue that Apple's portables are too thermally crippled enough to effectively drive any of the above devices anyway. But that's cool - they're meant to be portables. And thus the inbuilt screen/peripherals are far more important. Which makes it even more of a joke that they screwed up the keyboard so bad. But i digress...

You don't need to give up magsafe to have all that via USB-C ports. Except... oh what... yes you do, because Apple killed magsafe.

Also, i think you're confused with me "wanting magsafe back" over USB-C perhaps. I'm sad to see it go but i'd rather have USB-C. My disagreement though is with your "good riddance". It was a great connector, and still is, as far as power delivery goes. It's also not inherently limited to 100 watts, like USB-C is.

 

[gnipgnop]

Is the scissor design better? The kind of failures you mostly find with them is liquid damage, you just don't find many discrete key failures to the extent you find in the butterfly keyboards. The more often used keys like A,E, S, R, Shift & space bar are the common ones that fail. This is not the case with the scissor design.

Scissor keyboards generate all the same complaints as butterfly keyboards. A quick internet search proves that quite easily. They are susceptible to dust/crumbs. They can have non-responsive keys. They can have repeating keys. The entire keyboard can stop working. Sometimes the solution is hardware related and sometimes it's software related. That's true for both PC and Apple scissor keyboards in laptops.

For example, the link below describes a problem with a pre-2016 scissor MBP that was solved through software. However, if you look at the responses to the original article, you'll see numerous people who say the author's software solution didn't work for them. Since the article was posted in 2014, these are all scissor MBP users who are complaining about specific keys or groups of keys not working...just like people in this thread complaining about specific keys or groups of keys not working on their post-2016 MBP with the butterfly mechanism. None of this stuff is new for laptop keyboards.

https://www.webholism.com/blog/sara/macbook-pro-keys-suddenly-stopped-working/

 

[1146331]

Instead of “trashing” the computer give it back to them and they will reuse and recycle as appropriate.

Why in god's name would anybody want to "give" back a computer to a company who overcharged for the damn thing anyway?
[doublepost=1564398501][/doublepost]

Scissor keyboards generate all the same complaints as butterfly keyboards. A quick internet search proves that quite easily. They are susceptible to dust/crumbs. They can have non-responsive keys. They can have repeating keys. The entire keyboard can stop working. Sometimes the solution is hardware related and sometimes it's software related. That's true for both PC and Apple scissor keyboards in laptops.

For example, the link below describes a problem with a pre-2016 scissor MBP that was solved through software. However, if you look at the responses to the original article, you'll see numerous people who say the author's software solution didn't work for them. Since the article was posted in 2014, these are all scissor MBP users who are complaining about specific keys or groups of keys not working...just like people in this thread complaining about specific keys or groups of keys not working on their post-2016 MBP with the butterfly mechanism. None of this stuff is new for laptop keyboards.

https://www.webholism.com/blog/sara/macbook-pro-keys-suddenly-stopped-working/

Scissor keyboards are much more reliable than the butterfly keyboards. If you did an honest comparison [which is unlikely given the number of Apple apologists on these forums] by looking at the percentage of scissor keyboards that fail in the first 2 years compared to the percent of butterfly keyboards that fail in the first two years, Apple really screwed the pooch.

Hence, Apple is abandoning the crap butterfly keyboard design but not admitting their fault, as Apple never does. They'll advertise it as something revolutionary.

 

[Granville]

No

Switching it all USB-c was one of the smartest things Apple has done in a very long time. I have an older 2011 17" MBP that is stuck with crappy ports that are no longer very useful like FW800 and USB2. USB-c allows the MBP to adapt to any new future connection technology and prolong the life of an otherwise perfectly good computer.

The CPU and RAM in my 2011 is perfectly fine but the ports and horrifically slow GPU with no support for Metal really kills its usefulness today. If it had all TB3 ports I could have added a eGPU and all the USB 3.1 I could ever want to keep a perfectly good system usable.

You can buy a pair of USB-c to USB3.1 adapters for $6.

USB2 can still be used for many accessoires. Firewire is dead, but does that matter? It's not like your computer is useless. THANKS TO THE MANY PORTS IT IS STILL FUNCTIONING AND WITHOUT F ADAPTERS

Do you really think we will still use TB3 in 2027?? (your timeframe 8 years later)
Than you will have ZERO useful ports...

This must be the most stupidest comment I read in ages..

 

[gnipgnop]

If you did an honest comparison [which is unlikely given the number of Apple apologists on these forums] by looking at the percentage of scissor keyboards that fail in the first 2 years compared to the percent of butterfly keyboards that fail in the first two years, Apple really screwed the pooch.

Looking at the percentages would be ideal, but those numbers don't exist publicly. Apple doesn't provide them and neither do PC laptop brands. There have been attempts at roughly estimating the numbers, but those have never been convincing due to how small/incomplete the data sampled has been.

 

[DanBig]

Scissor keyboards generate all the same complaints as butterfly keyboards. A quick internet search proves that quite easily. They are susceptible to dust/crumbs. They can have non-responsive keys. They can have repeating keys. The entire keyboard can stop working. Sometimes the solution is hardware related and sometimes it's software related. That's true for both PC and Apple scissor keyboards in laptops.

For example, the link below describes a problem with a pre-2016 scissor MBP that was solved through software. However, if you look at the responses to the original article, you'll see numerous people who say the author's software solution didn't work for them. Since the article was posted in 2014, these are all scissor MBP users who are complaining about specific keys or groups of keys not working...just like people in this thread complaining about specific keys or groups of keys not working on their post-2016 MBP with the butterfly mechanism. None of this stuff is new for laptop keyboards.

https://www.webholism.com/blog/sara/macbook-pro-keys-suddenly-stopped-working/

You link pointed to the cause as the person had replaced the keyboard (likely liquid damage) the letters (Y, U, I & O) are related to the scan lines being for a different keyboard, hence a driver issue not a hardware issue.

As for junk in the keys if you spill stuff (food etc...) in, then thats on you. Any keyboard will fail!

The point is the issue of the butterfly keyboard failures are more related to explicit keys Vs generically across any and all keys. The heavily used keys are the ones that fail! Thats not junk thats design.

 

[gnipgnop]

You link pointed to the cause as the person had replaced the keyboard (likely liquid damage) the letters (Y, U, I & O) are related to the scan lines being for a different keyboard, hence a driver issue not a hardware issue.

There's no mention of the author ever having her keyboard physically replaced. She clears a software related glitch with the keys by "adding a new keyboard" through System Preferences. That solution works for many of the people that respond to her article, but not all. For some, the software oriented solution doesn't work. Not unusual, as the typical first steps for troubleshooting any type of keyboard issue is trying software/system oriented changes. If those don't work, then you can move on to potential hardware issues.