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Apple Expected to Use TSMC's Advanced 5nm+ and 4nm Technologies for Future iPhone Chips, Likely Macs Too

Are we going to have Quantum processor after we hit dead end?? Seems like we progress too fast tho

www.gizchina.com

TSMC 2nm process makes a significant breakthrough

TSMC 2nm process makes a significant breakthrough. The company is optimistic that its risk trial production yield in the second half of 2023 can reach 90%.
www.gizchina.com www.gizchina.com

Apple might go 2nm processors at 2024? What comes after that?
 
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acorntoy said:
And to think some of my friends were absolutely chuffed and happy with the 6 before they passed.

Life is truly amazing. We will always progress . By the time silicons limits are reached we will have a new platform. If history has taught us anything it’s to never expect humans to simply stagnate.
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That sounds nice, but you forget that there are limits. Physics limits. Quantum mechanics limits. We cannot violate that. That is nature. For instance, we will never travel beyond the speed of light. And we are reaching limits in many technologies now. Not until now, but in the future…
 
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pjoh7 said:
This is revolutionary. The reason 5 nm took so long is because traditional 193 nm ArFi DUV lithography (the process by which light is used to pattern wafers using photoresist) needed multiple patterning to achieve 10 nm. Now that EUV, which has been in development by ASML for over 25 years is finally ready, we can finally scale down to sub 7 nm, without the need for multiple patterning. Even more exciting is when ASML will release their high-NA EUV tools next year, we'll be seeing bigger jumps and node shrinks.

ASML is one of the most important companies on planet earth now, and few even know it exists.
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Crystal clear!
 
cmaier said:
Yes, they can go sub-nanometer. They can keep going until quantum effects prevent the ability to shut of the transistor gate. As they get smaller they will modify the gate geometries (which they’ve already done once, when they moved to FINFETs instead of MOSFETs) in order to provide a stronger electrical field to shut off the gate. At some point they may have to go to vertical transistors, like bipolar devices, where the layer thicknesses are the critical dimensions (since those are easier to control). At the point where they can finally go no further, they may have to switch to semiconductors with heterojunctions (e.g. GaAs or InP) in order to increase carrier mobility without shrinking the gates further. Or they can use bandgap engineering with silicon (which already occurs - most process now use germanium to modify the bandgap).

It will be quite awhile before things hit a dead end.
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I understood nothing from this, but thank you! :)
 
SpiritSoul1008 said:
That would be physically impossible as the size of an atom of silicon is .2nm. But we can surely see some wafers which are less than 3nm. You would have to move on to another element, or go quantum.
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Isn’t that where we’re headed any way? Quantum computing? We will eventually run in to the physical size constraints with silicon, and then another atom, and so on. Might nor be for some time but quantum computing seems an inevitability.

As far as the article, sounds like Apple is just going to further leap frog the competition. I would hate to be stuck on Windows in an era where Apple has their own computers and processors.
 
Internet Enzyme said:
I’m curious, how far can they go with shrinking nodes? Is sub-nanometer a thing? If it isn’t, how does the industry move on from silicon?
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TSMC has a roadmap down to 0.8nm in 2020. And we still have some ideas to go further below that. So technically we still have another 10+ years to go.

Whether the unit economics will be able to sustain this development is another question though.

Note: Node naming ( 7nm , 5nm ... 0.8nm ) has nothing to do with its features size. Think of it as an improvement over previous node.

It is interesting the rumours points to 4nm rather than 3nm in 2022. We will know more in the next TSMC investor meetings.
 
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=Alb= said:
I remember many years ago, when maybe they where at 120nm, that the physical limit was supposed to be around 8-10nm. I don't know what to believe today. A silicon atom is 0.2 nm.
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Apple will make new, smaller atoms in 2025. For all of the elements of the periodic table.

This will allow manufacturing chips built on the 1-picometer process.
 
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sw1tcher said:
Was to be expected. There's no other company that's as advanced as TSMC.

Even Intel will start using TSMC's foundries soon.
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No, TSMC is not advanced. It just secured a deal to buy the best lithography machines. They did not develop anything in house. There are very few companies in the world that manufacture these machines and the production is limited. If you are not their client, you cant make 5nm chips. That is what happend with Intel. They thought they could copy the process internally and failed. TSMC instead decided to buy all the machines and left nothing for its competitors. As a result, AMD and Apple that put some much money into TSMC are top clients and Intel and Nvidia are left behind.
 
matrix07 said:
Don’t put your entire saving into it. Taiwan is not safe.
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If we're gonna get all Jim Cramer in this thread - there are many reasons why putting all your savings into one singular thing is a bad idea, beyond geopolitical issues.

Back on topic - I am very curious to see how Apple will mete out processor upgrades vs. form factor changes on As devices. Apple have sortof conditioned us with the phones to expect a new Ax SoC every year, but I don't know if that's viable for laptops etc. That would be a LOT of chip design over time. Would love to see their so-called roadmap.
 
SuperCachetes said:
If we're gonna get all Jim Cramer in this thread - there are many reasons why putting all your savings into one singular thing is a bad idea, beyond geopolitical issues.
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I put my entire retirement saving into Apple in 2007 though. 😉
(and I was a PC user at the time, with no iPod 😳)
 
matrix07 said:
I put my entire retirement saving into Apple in 2007 though. 😉
(and I was a PC user at the time, with no iPod 😳)
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I bought a fair bit of Apple in 2007 and 2008 myself and am obviously "very pleased" with the results. If I'd put everything I had into it at the time, I likely would've retired this year - over a decade early. Doesn't mean it would've been a wise move, though... just "fortunate." Congratulations nonetheless. ;)
 
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neuropsychguy said:
Intel also gave up years ago: https://www.technologyreview.com/20...dmit-transistors-are-about-to-stop-shrinking/

Attitudes like that are part of why Apple switched to their own processors.

What’s interesting is AMD was part of this group saying that by 2021 it wasn’t worth the costs to go smaller. Well, TSMC is still going smaller (as is AMD...Intel pretends they still are).
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From my understanding, AMD doesn't have their own Fab now, either. They're doing the same as Apple, which is exactly how they made their sudden inroads in performance, lately. That's not intended to belittle their architectural advancements, mind you.
 
I see the A15 hitting either the same scores and performance as the M1 Macbook next year. This will further the lead of the A-series chip in relation to Exynos, Kirin, and SnapDragon.
 
cmaier said:
It’s not a matter of the name of the process. And “5nm” is just a name, it’s not the size of the transistor gate. They can get quite a bit smaller before they get stuck. Changing the gate structure so that the electric field can be applied from all sides will help.

We already worry about quantum effects - we have been dealing with them for at least 10 years. It’s part of why we have static leakage current even when devices are shut off.
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Have you been able to see Ant Man?? I know he's down there somewhere.....
 
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