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No several are targeted apple is just the biggest and has benefited the most and longest.

And the act itself is not illegal that is correct, its just that perhaps at the time when apple was strugling when it got first to ireland it was justified (80's) now it isnt any more and its pure gov subdidies for apple. Something that isnt legal.


Hence no fines, apple just needs to pay the back owned taxes .

80's Apple was doing well, the 90's was hard times.

The tax law changes will have to go across the board to work.
Even then, I doubt any government could recover any back taxes.

Could you image if the law suite against Apple to succeed? Tens of thousands of companies would now be liable to pay taxes for what was then an "acceptable" practice.
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Might take several years in the courts but Apple will have to pay up in the end. :D

Doubt it, read above.
 
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Oh happy day. I love it when the big bad greedy corporate bastards get their comeuppance.
Even when they still might not get their comeuppance? And even if they do, it will have no material effect on the corporation?

Oh no! Somebody took a few scraps from that pile of cash that I'm not doing anything with! And when I finally do want to use the money, the scraps will be a tax write off. Woe is me. :cool:
 
80's Apple was doing well, the 90's was hard times.
The tax law changes will have to go across the board to work.
Even then, I doubt any government could recover any back taxes.
No no tax changes are needed, the normal rate in ireland is 12.5%, apple simply has to pay that for those years.


Could you image if the law suite against Apple to succeed? Tens of thousands of companies would now be liable to pay taxes for what was then an "acceptable" practice.

I dont think ireland has tens of thousands of companies it gives tax exceptions to, let alone basicly let them pay close to no taxes . The very vast mayority of irish companies pay that 12.5%, they dont recieve special "subsidies" like apple does.
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I am not going to argue with you about an obvious fact. I suggest you view the CNBC videos of the Ireland Finance Minister, and Treasury Secretary, and the President's spokesman comments, themselves.
You should actually rewatch those, the case the EU has against apple is for unrightfull aid. EU doesnt want to set irish taxes it marely states that the tax exeption apple gets is an illegal aid to apple, a company that has plenty of profit and doesnt need help.

This falls clearly under the jurisdiction of the EU and was signed by ireland.

Yes the irish minister talks about something completly different, either he doesnt know (doubtfull) or he knows and just uses this as an excuse.

In the event this survives appeals and political posturing, the monies Apple pays is deducted from their tax due for the corresponding years so it is a direct reach thru to US taxpayers (Treasury) by EU on behalf of Ireland, which if they receive it MUST use it for deficit reduction, not current budgets.
Its not, this has nothing to do with US taxpayers.

Apple should have paid taxes on this profit, it keeps this money abroad of the US.

If the precedent survives they will certainly do this for many other companies in this and other countries, as a means to reduce European deficits at the expense of United States of America citizens. :(
Total BS, this has nothing to with the US.

There were already several simular cases against starbucks & fiat ,apple by far isnt the first.

In both cases appeal was filed or will be filed, I dont know of any such cases that ever got dismissed.
 
No no tax changes are needed, the normal rate in ireland is 12.5%, apple simply has to pay that for those years.


I dont think ireland has tens of thousands of companies it gives tax exceptions to, let alone basicly let them pay close to no taxes . The very vast mayority of irish companies pay that 12.5%, they dont recieve special "subsidies" like apple does.

First: Apple was charged a tax rate by Irish government (.005 effective). Apple was in compliance with those laws and agreements. Apple is not at fault.

Second: it is reported by business news it is a popular method of paying lower taxes, not just in Ireland. It is also reported to be widely used by businesses. Even if a few hundred companies do this, it will still be a significant impart to world business if those companies have to retroactively pay those taxes.

Third: The US will end up paying this $14 million bill, because US tax law will allow this charge to be written at a loss. Any company could do this, not just Apple.

Forth: Ireland is leading the defense against this charge. It is fight among countries and agencies.


and
Fifth: I HATE the fact companies can do this muck. It is not Apple's fault, they are only doing what everyone else does.
In fact, if Apple did not take advantage of these incentives they could probably be sued by share holders!

The need for tax reform is vital, world wide, and non-too-soon!

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Oh happy day. I love it when the big bad greedy corporate bastards get their comeuppance.

Its not a "big bad greedy corporate bastards ", its a political corruption that allowed such backroom deals and loopholes to be made in first place. Apple is doing what hundreds of others have done, and theirs is a drop in the bucket when you look at all the others.

Reading the official EU synopsis: (a radio interview here as well with Commissioner Margrethe Vestager)
This selective tax treatment of Apple in Ireland is illegal under EU state aid rules, because it gives Apple a significant advantage over other businesses that are subject to the same national taxation rules. The Commission can order recovery of illegal state aid for a ten-year period preceding the Commission's first request for information in 2013. Ireland must now recover the unpaid taxes in Ireland from Apple for the years 2003 to 2014 of up to €13 billion, plus interest.

In fact, the tax treatment in Ireland enabled Apple to avoid taxation on almost all profits generated by sales of Apple products in the entire EU Single Market. This is due to Apple's decision to record all sales in Ireland rather than in the countries where the products were sold. This structure is however outside the remit of EU state aid control. If other countries were to require Apple to pay more tax on profits of the two companies over the same period under their national taxation rules, this would reduce the amount to be recovered by Ireland.

Notice that Ireland must go after Apple, which they currently refuse to do.
And if other countries go after Apple for sales, that reduces what Ireland will get, which will further reduce the incentive to go after them.

In effect Ireland will have to air its dirty laundry, and then everyone will see how many companies have these deals.
This will surely make Ireland very uncomfortable with the situation and EU oversight (and ironically US is not happy either), maybe decide being in EU is not worth it?

And you, Shawn UK, knows very well why UK decided to leave.


Yes, this IS very nasty, crooked, and the whole lot of them are tosh, but the problem is those loopholes and secret agreements, in this case created by Irish government.
 
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First: Apple was charged a tax rate by Irish government (.005 effective). Apple was in compliance with those laws and agreements. Apple is not at fault.
EU or me never said apple is at fault, this isnt the issue.

Second: it is reported by business news it is a popular method of paying lower taxes, not just in Ireland. It is also reported to be widely used by businesses. Even if a few hundred companies do this, it will still be a significant impart to world business if those companies have to retroactively pay those taxes.
I doubt hundreds of companies have this regime in ireland, the EU as far as I can see has about a dozen cases, this isnt to change irish law or to have some general rule.

Third: The US will end up paying this $14 million bill, because US tax law will allow this charge to be written at a loss. Any company could do this, not just Apple.
This money as far as I can see isnt in the US, and is kept outside of the US. I doubt apple can deduct its taxes abroad on different coorporate entitys as an expense in the US. If it was this simple apple would just pay the taxes and deduct in the US. All companies would do this.

Do you have any credible source that explains how this would work?

Forth: Ireland is leading the defense against this charge. It is fight among countries and agencies.
yes

and
Fifth: I HATE the fact companies can do this muck. It is not Apple's fault, they are only doing what everyone else does.
In fact, if Apple did not take advantage of these incentives they could probably be sued by share holders!

Thats BS , give me one example where this actually happened when a company as paying 12% on its profits.


Second no apple isnt doing what everybody else is doing, everybody else is paying 12% or close to it, apple pays almost 0 .

I for one dont believe a second ireland just happen to lower just apple's rates out of the goodness of their hearts. Apple demanded and apple got what it wanted.


The need for tax reform is vital, world wide, and non-too-soon!
not going to happen.


This will surely make Ireland very uncomfortable with the situation and EU oversight (and ironically US is not happy either), maybe decide being in EU is not worth it?
Ireland still gets hundreds f millions a year from the EU. Doubt thet want to give that up for apple his couple of million in taxes if they would move that entity.
 
EU or me never said apple is at fault, this isnt the issue.
...
I doubt hundreds of companies have this regime in ireland, the EU as far as I can see has about a dozen cases, this isnt to change irish law or to have some general rule.
...
This money as far as I can see isnt in the US, and is kept outside of the US. I doubt apple can deduct its taxes abroad on different coorporate entitys as an expense in the US. If it was this simple apple would just pay the taxes and deduct in the US. All companies would do this.
...
Do you have any credible source that explains how this would work?


yes

I have read and heard in past of companies have shell companies do hide income, or losses (think Enron, Worldcom)

Basic tax law 101, find any and all ways to claim a loss do you don't have to pay.

Supporting source here.

Thats BS , give me one example where this actually happened when a company as paying 12% on its profits.
Second no apple isnt doing what everybody else is doing, everybody else is paying 12% or close to it, apple pays almost 0 .
I for one dont believe a second ireland just happen to lower just apple's rates out of the goodness of their hearts. Apple demanded and apple got what it wanted.
.....

not going to happen.

Ireland still gets hundreds f millions a year from the EU. Doubt thet want to give that up for apple his couple of million in taxes if they would move that entity.

One example?
How about two.
Both companies I have worked for did that (using off shore branches), don't have any direct proof but evidence by some of the things they did.
...

Yes, Ireland lowered their tax rate to snag a powerful company. How many others?

Check out this list of top 1000 companies in Ireland.

Apple is #10.
How many of the previous 9 have those favorable tax rates?
Dell? Allergen? Medtronic? Google?
Maybe Microsoft???

Want to bet one of those had effect rate (at one time) well below 1%?

Look at how Ireland ranks in EU, they are one of the lowest of top countries, only better than mostly former Soviet Block states. Ireland is not a financial or industrial powerhouse for such powerful global corporations to normally care about, except for that super low negotiated rate.


YES, I agree these rules will not change overnight, or even over years, but hopefully it will, one day.
Hopefully.
 
I hope as a european consumer I'll get back some Apple tax :p

Apple really knew very well what it was doing. Looks like Ireland was the Kayman islands of Europe. You can't sell iPhones in Apple stores in Italy or Germany without paying taxes and say you sold it from their office in Ireland.

It smells like fraud and Apple really knows this when they set up that construction. I wish they'd put the same time and energy in their product development which seems stagnant for years.
 
I hope as a european consumer I'll get back some Apple tax :p

Apple really knew very well what it was doing. Looks like Ireland was the Kayman islands of Europe. You can't sell iPhones in Apple stores in Italy or Germany without paying taxes and say you sold it from their office in Ireland.

It smells like fraud and Apple really knows this when they set up that construction. I wish they'd put the same time and energy in their product development which seems stagnant for years.

Thats nothing to do with Ireland - thats how the Eurozone works. If you are a German company selling goods/services in Ireland you pay German tax. If you are a Dutch company selling goods/services in Malta, you pay Dutch tax. Etc. Apple set it up that way that there European subsidiary was an Irish company. Then they took advantage of another loophole of Irish law that lets 'stateless' companies exist allowing the so called double-irish tax arrangement to happen. Of course there were similar mechanisms in Belgium, The Netherlands and Luxembourg - Apple just chose Ireland. What the current row is about is whether the Irish government by agreement let them funnel profits this way in addition to the usual tricks, that other companies were not allowed to do - thus making it an anti-competitive issue. This is what the EU commission is calling 'illegal state aid' from the Irish government to Apple. So whether other countries were to get a slice of the €13billion or not is a whole other question - but most likely not because this is not how it works for any other company iin the EU.
 
I have read and heard in past of companies have shell companies do hide income, or losses (think Enron, Worldcom)
Basic tax law 101, find any and all ways to claim a loss do you don't have to pay.
Supporting source here.
Thats to hide from stockowners/media not to deduct taxes inanother country.


One example?
How about two.
Both companies I have worked for did that (using off shore branches), don't have any direct proof but evidence by some of the things they did.
They did what? Again the problems isnt that apple has centralised all its foreign revenue in low taxaton country. Thats perfectly legal.

Again give me an example where they actuall sued ceo/bod because they didnt get a lower tax rate then 12% on its profits. The effective tax rate in the US is something like 25% so that means most shareholders could sue . This argument is used often to defend a whole lot but when has this actually been done?


Yes, Ireland lowered their tax rate to snag a powerful company. How many others?
Check out this list of top 1000 companies in Ireland.
Apple is #10.
How many of the previous 9 have those favorable tax rates?
Dell? Allergen? Medtronic? Google?
Maybe Microsoft???
Want to bet one of those had effect rate (at one time) well below 1%?

Possible and if so then its possible the EU deems this illegal state aid.

As they should apple has no reason to get a 0% tax rate as others have to pay 12% .

The problem is you seem to have no numbers to back anything up, and remember the statement wathis could hurt a lot of companies.

Look at how Ireland ranks in EU, they are one of the lowest of top countries, only better than mostly former Soviet Block states. Ireland is not a financial or industrial powerhouse for such powerful global corporations to normally care about, except for that super low negotiated rate.

No that super low normal rate, 12% is among the least in the world. The very vast mayority of companies were and are atracted because of that.

YES, I agree these rules will not change overnight, or even over years, but hopefully it will, one day.
Hopefully.
The rules dont need to change, either ireland gives everyone 0.005% or everyone 12% and just helps companies that actually need it. As per EU regulations.
 
This would only effect taxes to be paid in the US if Apple were to repatriate those earning.
Somthing they clearly have no intent in doing unless their is a tax holiday.

3 ways this can end (ignoring another sweetheart deal):

1) Apple/Ireland prooves that this kind of taxaitipn was available for any given company -> no back payment
2) Apple prooves that they wete so naive that they didn't know the deal was against EU rules -> back payment up from the day they have been notified of the investigation
3) Apple knew from day one that they were in dubious waters -> back payment on the level suggested
 
Even when they still might not get their comeuppance? And even if they do, it will have no material effect on the corporation?

Oh no! Somebody took a few scraps from that pile of cash that I'm not doing anything with! And when I finally do want to use the money, the scraps will be a tax write off. Woe is me. :cool:

€13bn might be small change to Apple but it's a start and if it pisses off Cook then that makes me happy.

If the Irish government doesn't want the money they should donate it to the millions of starving people around the world.
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If you are a German company selling goods/services in Ireland you pay German tax. If you are a Dutch company selling goods/services in Malta, you pay Dutch tax. Etc.

One of the many reasons I voted to leave the EU. Apple is going to get a shock when the UK tax man demands they pay tax in the UK not in Ireland.
 
One of the many reasons I voted to leave the EU. Apple is going to get a shock when the UK tax man demands they pay tax in the UK not in Ireland.

Well you will also lose out the tax from goods/services of companies that were selling to Europe from the UK - many of whom will now up sticks and leave (who knows - maybe they will relocate to an indepedent Scotland inside the EU ??). Which number works out bigger - the gain or the loss ? Nobody knows. But those with expertise predict the loss will be greater.
 
€13bn might be small change to Apple but it's a start and if it pisses off Cook then that makes me happy..
Spite aside, it wouldn't cost Apple a penny. It would simply be deducted from their tax liability when the money is repatriated. This is about which country gets the taxes and when. Not about the amount. Apple is eventually paying the same amount either way.
 
One of the many reasons I voted to leave the EU. Apple is going to get a shock when the UK tax man demands they pay tax in the UK not in Ireland.

Well let's hope you don't come to regret that decision if you end up in a queue at your local job centre.
 
Spite aside, it wouldn't cost Apple a penny. It would simply be deducted from their tax liability when the money is repatriated. This is about which country gets the taxes and when. Not about the amount. Apple is eventually paying the same amount either way.
Thats not possible, you cannot deduct taxes you pay abroad.

Where would they deduct this?
 
And countries like Australia (where the money was actually spent due to this supposed loophole) will get NOTHING. While Ireland (a broke European country) will get billions for free despite the fact they actively allowed this to happen!!! What bollocks!!! Subject to appeal I know (and will probably end up more of a token amount, if anything) but still...

The European Union is just a bunch of corrupt, protectionist countries banding together in order to get more power/influence than they are worth. I can totally see why there was the Brexit.
Populist gut-inspired tin-foil hat behavior. As expected ;)
 
Thats to hide from stockowners/media not to deduct taxes inanother country.

They did what? Again the problems isnt that apple has centralised all its foreign revenue in low taxaton country. Thats perfectly legal.

Again give me an example where they actuall sued ceo/bod because they didnt get a lower tax rate then 12% on its profits. The effective tax rate in the US is something like 25% so that means most shareholders could sue . This argument is used often to defend a whole lot but when has this actually been done?

Possible and if so then its possible the EU deems this illegal state aid.

As they should apple has no reason to get a 0% tax rate as others have to pay 12% .

The problem is you seem to have no numbers to back anything up, and remember the statement wathis could hurt a lot of companies.

No that super low normal rate, 12% is among the least in the world. The very vast mayority of companies were and are atracted because of that.

The rules dont need to change, either ireland gives everyone 0.005% or everyone 12% and just helps companies that actually need it. As per EU regulations.

Yes, you are right, Enron and Worldcom his losses, terrible example, my bad.

I heard of various threats about shareholder lawsuits over what the board/CEO does, but come to think of it you may be right, no actual suite went forward.
Not the same, but example of activist shareholder (back room CEO wannabe)
http://www.startribune.com/medtronic-argues-supreme-court-should-boot-shareholder-lawsuit/371124821/

BTW, "wathis "???

I don't have proof, just a hunch given what I have heard about Ireland over the years is the very attractive incentives Ireland used to attract many of the biggest companies in the world to a country that had little too offer.

How many of those businesses received a tax rate less than 12.5% (or 12%)?
Would Apple, who by 1991 (when office setup to Ireland) was being crushed by IBM clones, have received such a sweet deal?

Or Google that seems to manage 0% (IIRC)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...ple-uncle-tom-cobbleigh-and-all/#61dab0a66a79

Or Microsoft saving 0.5 billion a year?
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB113132761685289706

This article suggest MS might have paid even less than Apple
http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-microsoft-avoids-taxes-loopholes-irs-2013-1


My bottom line, the issue is rampant, Ireland looks to be most responsible, but the EC Commission going after only Apple is disingenuous to the scope of the issue, they should have gone after several players if they really wanted to break this system and bring honest justice.
 
I heard of various threats about shareholder lawsuits over what the board/CEO does, but come to think of it you may be right, no actual suite went forward.
Not the same, but example of activist shareholder (back room CEO wannabe)
http://www.startribune.com/medtronic-argues-supreme-court-should-boot-shareholder-lawsuit/371124821/
I always believed the same until I saw an article on the myth of the shareholder lawsuits. Its sees its nothing more then something mainly made up to justify just about anything .


I don't have proof, just a hunch given what I have heard about Ireland over the years is the very attractive incentives Ireland used to attract many of the biggest companies in the world to a country that had little too offer.

How many of those businesses received a tax rate less than 12.5% (or 12%)?
Would Apple, who by 1991 (when office setup to Ireland) was being crushed by IBM clones, have received such a sweet deal?
Its possible that if indeed apple was still in trouble EU would not have had a problem with this. And yes ireland has been atractive to companies with one of the lowest tax rates for companys in the OECD .

Or Google that seems to manage 0% (IIRC)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...ple-uncle-tom-cobbleigh-and-all/#61dab0a66a79

Or Microsoft saving 0.5 billion a year?
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB113132761685289706

This article suggest MS might have paid even less than Apple
http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-microsoft-avoids-taxes-loopholes-irs-2013-1


My bottom line, the issue is rampant, Ireland looks to be most responsible, but the EC Commission going after only Apple is disingenuous to the scope of the issue, they should have gone after several players if they really wanted to break this system and bring honest justice.
EU is not going after just apple, it has already issues simular verdicts for starbucks and fiat I believe and more will follow. This isnt something against the US or apple.
 
I always believed the same until I saw an article on the myth of the shareholder lawsuits. Its sees its nothing more then something mainly made up to justify just about anything .

Its possible that if indeed apple was still in trouble EU would not have had a problem with this. And yes ireland has been atractive to companies with one of the lowest tax rates for companys in the OECD .

EU is not going after just apple, it has already issues simular verdicts for starbucks and fiat I believe and more will follow. This isnt something against the US or apple.

I heard about the Fiat and Starbucks investigations. The only commonality is tax evasion, but used other means, and different countries and may been specific to just them (and the schemes seem more complex).

With Ireland, it seems many more than just Apple used the same scheme.
 
I heard about the Fiat and Starbucks investigations. The only commonality is tax evasion, but used other means, and different countries and may been specific to just them (and the schemes seem more complex).

With Ireland, it seems many more than just Apple used the same scheme.


No its the same: EU countries that gave tax breaks to companys that are deemed illegal state aid by the EU.

"The European Commission has decided that Luxembourg and the Netherlands have granted selective tax advantages to Fiat Finance and Trade and Starbucks, respectively. These are illegal under EU state aid rules."
 
No its the same: EU countries that gave tax breaks to companys that are deemed illegal state aid by the EU.

"The European Commission has decided that Luxembourg and the Netherlands have granted selective tax advantages to Fiat Finance and Trade and Starbucks, respectively. These are illegal under EU state aid rules."

I meant illegal tax breaks.
How is different, country is different, company is different, just illegal tax breaks is only thing that seems common.
 
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