Apple Explains Why It Terminated Epic's Latest Developer Account

[bsolar]

So? It is a dispute between two US companies. EU law does not apply to Apple's developer agreement (contract). The case was brought in the appropriate venue, the courts ruled that Epic violated the agreement on purpose, and that Apple could refuse to go into another agreement with them. Nothing to do with the DMA. It's all US contract law.

Apple terminated Epic's developer account in Sweden though. I don't think US courts have any jurisdiction on that contractual agreement.

The DMA requires Apple to provide access to the platform. How Apple intends to do that is Apple's problem from the point of view of the DMA.

Basically, Apple not wanting to enter a business relationship with Epic does not invalidate the DMA requirement for them to allow Epic access to the platform unless Apple can justify disallowing access due to "strictly necessary and proportionate" measures to ensure the platform's security.

 

[duffman9000]

That's exactly the problem. Apple made it so that any and all business agreements (ie. app and IAP sales) must go through them, and that includes third-party app stores. If that weren't the case, then this wouldn't be an issue.

I think what Epic really wanted is a way to completely cut out Apple from the picture. I think the only way to do that is to allow installs of unsigned apps.

 

[mrochester]

I mean, I personally couldn't care less about Epic games specifically, but it's not a good look for Apple to be able to basically block everyone from doing business with a company even outside of them, on their own devices.

Apple isn’t stopping you from doing business with epic. If you and epic decide you want to install a different os and epic games on your iPhone that’s entirely for you to agree.

 

[Samplasion]

I think what Epic really wanted is a way to completely cut out Apple from the picture. I think the only way to do that is to allow installs of unsigned apps.

Yes, that's true – but the reason why this is even a discussion is entirely because of Apple's tantum-throwing.

 

[ksj1]

Apple terminated Epic's developer account in Sweden though. I don't think US courts have any jurisdiction on that contractual agreement.

The DMA requires Apple to provide access to the platform. How Apple intends to do that is Apple's problem from the point of view of the DMA.

Basically, Apple not wanting to enter a business relationship with Epic does not invalidate the DMA requirement for them to allow Epic access to the platform unless Apple can justify disallowing access due to "strictly necessary and proportionate" measures to ensure the platform's security.

It doesn't work that way. Epic is a US company. They can't skirt this by using their wholly owned EU subsidiary. International law would be a farce if that was allowed.

 

[Samplasion]

Apple isn’t stopping you from doing business with epic

Apple prevents me from enjoying Epic's content on my phone.

 

[Will Co]

So? It is a dispute between two US companies. EU law does not apply to Apple's developer agreement (contract). The case was brought in the appropriate venue, the courts ruled that Epic violated the agreement on purpose, and that Apple could refuse to go into another agreement with them. Nothing to do with the DMA. It's all US contract law.

All correct.

Epic needs a developer account to place apps on iOS, even in an alternative AppStore in the EU. Epic/EU might try to argue that under the provisions of the “gatekeeper” clauses, Apple must not restrict access to its platform in this way. It must not abuse its position as a gatekeeper. It’s essentially what the DMA aims to achieve. If that turns out to be valid and legally enforceable, then Apple might be required to allow Epic to deploy apps on iOS within the EU with or without an developer account.

But for the rest of the world, your argument holds.

 

[j26]

Lots of people making legal pronouncements here.

I'm a lawyer, but this is not my specific area of expertise, so I'm holding off on pronouncing judgment. However I do know the the issues involved here are MUCH more complex than most posters seem to believe.

Don't be too entrenched in your view - this could easily go either way. Apple doesn't have full freedom of contract as it's a gatekeeper, and as such is limited in how it can treat business partners. Epic was about to launch a store, but can't now. On the other hand, it's behaviours hasn't been a shining example of good practice. On the other side of the equation, the EU has new rules that it will be keen to show it's serious about.

It will be really interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[Snake111]

Sorry but **** EPIC

 

[Gasu E.]

Also stated they terminated it because of Tim Sweeney’s criticism of Apple’s implementation of DMA rules. Which doesn’t sit right.

What doesn't sit right? Epic claiming this was the reason? You're right. It isn't credible that Apple would terminate their account just because the CEO said some stuff.

 

[Mousse]

You dont see how it could be worse if apple is forced to NOT vet devs?

I see how much worse it can be. I see lots of scam apps, spyware apps (Facebook, Tiktok😕) on the PlayStore. That doesn't mean I would download them. Google doesn't tell me, "Yeah. These apps have been weighed on balances, and not found wanting. They're safe to install, buddy." Apple keeps claiming they carefully curate the apps on the Appstore. Looks safe.😉

The problem with Apple approach is that they think they can fool proof their ecosystem. That's impossible. Never underestimate the ingenuity of a fool.😏

 

[bsolar]

It doesn't work that way. Epic is a US company. They can't skirt this by using their wholly owned EU subsidiary. International law would be a farce if that was allowed.

Are you arguing that an US company doing business in the EU and entering a contract in the EU is subject to US law instead of EU law?

 

[jz0309]

Epic's "previous behaviour" was a violation of a contractual term which is very likely now illegal under the DMA. I expect that the EU will be asking Apple to explain exactly what part of the developer agreement Epic violated in the past, and will also expect Apple to provide an argument as to how that part of the agreement complies with the DMA. If Apple cannot provide a valid explanation, then it will probably find that pointing to "past behaviour" isn't going to be a valid legal justification for terminating Epic's account.

Epic lost their case in the US court system, part of that was a ruling that said Apple has the right to terminate all Epic developer accounts.
The EU is very aware of this and I highly doubt that the EU will invalidate a US ruling, and yes, I know US laws don't apply in the EU nor vice versa ...
Now if Epic files a lawsuit in the EU - that'll turn into another yearlong battle with unknown outcome ...

 

[poseidondev]

It’s amazing how Epic can pull stunts like this, play the victim, and have people gobble it up like without a hint of critical thinking.

Epic was kicked out of the Developer Program for breaching the contract by pulling the stunt they pulled with Fortnite.

Court said that this was fair and square and that Apple was free to refuse to do business with them and end any ties with Epic's affiliates.

DMA comes around with the option for alternative marketplaces. Epic, of course, wants in. This was what they were after in the US after all.

Any rational human being would think Epic would thus reach out to Apple corporate and ask if they would be welcome to come back.

Epic instead of doing this, creates a new European subsidiary and uses that subsidiary to create a new developer account through the semi-automated process on Apple's website.

Only after that account was successfully created did they reach out to Apple executives. Not to ask if they're welcome, but to straight up, matter of factly, tell Craig Federighi that they're back and that they want an invite to talk about setting up their alternative marketplace, as if nothing happened.

At the same time of sending this email, they announce on social media that they "received [their] Apple Developer Account" and that they're back in business.

Again, mind you, Apple is unaware of their "return" at the time they make this public announcement. Basically an entirely new blindsiding by Epic.

Apple, rightfully so, points out that Epic admitted that they wilfully broke the previous contract and that they did so in a purposeful malicious way to trigger the court case.
Apple doesn't outright says this, but keep in mind that this was Epic blindsiding Apple, because Epic hadn't openly complained about the terms of the contract before pulling that stunt.
What Apple does say, however, in that same email is that Epic now is loudly and publicly indicating that they don't like the terms of the contract they're seeking to enter in with Apple, so Apple, rightfully so, asks why they should trust Sweeny this time around.

Epic essentially replies with a "Just trust me, bro" and Apple('s lawyers) basically reply with an "LOL, no."

Here we are, Epic playing the victim with the same grace and useless arguments as a shoplifter that was banned from Walmart. One that argues that the doors automatically opened for him and that he was greeted when walking in, so that must mean that he was welcome to come back.

With the way they worded their announcement on February 16 I figured this was what was going on, and sure enough, it was exactly as I thought. Not only that, but they're arrogant enough to post the emails that prove this timeline and people are eating it up.

Tune in next time for the next stunt by Epic.

 

[turbineseaplane]

There are no smaller guys, this is Goliath vs Goliath. Tencent is definitely not an “underdog”

Relative size and leverage matter a lot -- and there is a massive disparity here

There is a Goliath here -- it's Apple and it's not close

 

[j26]

Now if Epic files a lawsuit in the EU - that'll turn into another yearlong battle with unknown outcome ...

Highly likely, unless the EU regulators jump in and decide against Apple, in which case it'll be Apple taking a lawsuit.

 

[jz0309]

Wait until you hear how Apple behaves!

what is that supposed to mean?
this discussion is about Epic getting their developer count revoked, and the US court system has ruled that Apple has the right to do so

 

[bsolar]

Relative size and leverage matter a lot -- and there is a massive disparity here

There is a Goliath here -- it's Apple and it's not close

Which company is bigger has zero relevance on the merits of the issue though.

Take Amazon vs. Apple in the eBooks antitrust case: Apple was found in violation of antitrust regulations against Amazon even though Amazon was definitely the much bigger player.

 

[Sogeman]

Apple should just ban every account then no one can create alt app stores or apps for them. They probably thought about that at some point. Whiney babies

 

[turbineseaplane]

Which company is bigger has zero relevance on the merits of the issue though.

Not on the merits perhaps, but on the resources and potential leverage, which is what I was getting at.

Additionally, one of these is an entrenched and monopolistic position

My overarching point is "don't be rooting for the platform vendor who is trying to use their power to quell competition or extract rents"

Many disagree - obviously
We have folks here that would vote against "free water" if Apple said "free water is bad -- buy water from us instead"

 

[Will Co]

Lots of people making legal pronouncements here.

I'm a lawyer, but this is not my specific area of expertise, so I'm holding off on pronouncing judgment. However I do know the the issues involved here are MUCH more complex than most posters seem to believe.

Don't be too entrenched in your view - this could easily go either way. Apple doesn't have full freedom of contract as it's a gatekeeper, and as such is limited in how it can treat business partners. Epic was about to launch a store, but can't now. On the other hand, it's behaviours hasn't been a shining example of good practice. On the other side of the equation, the EU has new rules that it will be keen to show it's serious about.

It will be really interesting to see how this plays out.

I think it’s one of the most interesting things I’ve seen so far in the evolution of the digital marketplace.

 

[jz0309]

Relative size and leverage matter a lot -- and there is a massive disparity here

There is a Goliath here -- it's Apple and it's not close

so the "little guy" who went through the US court system and lost should be supported?
that just doesn't make any sense ...

 

[Viale Montanane]

It’s Apple’s platform, they built it, so why should Apple be obliged to make any concessions of any kind to some other party who wants to take advantage of it ? This us just tyrannical on the part of the EU.

 

[j26]

I think it’s one of the most interesting things I’ve seen so far in the evolution of the digital marketplace.

Agreed. And if the EU tries to intervene and fails, it could result in a whole new DMA (Mark II)

 

[rkuo]

It’s amazing how Epic can pull stunts like this, play the victim, and have people gobble it up like without a hint of critical thinking.

Epic was kicked out of the Developer Program for breaching the contract by pulling the stunt they pulled with Fortnite.

Court said that this was fair and square and that Apple was free to refuse to do business with them and end any ties with Epic's affiliates.

DMA comes around with the option for alternative marketplaces. Epic, of course, wants in. This was what they were after in the US after all.

Any rational human being would think Epic would thus reach out to Apple corporate and ask if they would be welcome to come back.

Epic instead of doing this, creates a new European subsidiary and uses that subsidiary to create a new developer account through the semi-automated process on Apple's website.

Only after that account was successfully created did they reach out to Apple executives. Not to ask if they're welcome, but to straight up, matter of factly, tell Craig Federighi that they're back and that they want an invite to talk about setting up their alternative marketplace, as if nothing happened.

At the same time of sending this email, they announce on social media that they "received [their] Apple Developer Account" and that they're back in business.

Again, mind you, Apple is unaware of their "return" at the time they make this public announcement. Basically an entirely new blindsiding by Epic.

Apple, rightfully so, points out that Epic admitted that they wilfully broke the previous contract and that they did so in a purposeful malicious way to trigger the court case.
Apple doesn't outright says this, but keep in mind that this was Epic blindsiding Apple, because Epic hadn't openly complained about the terms of the contract before pulling that stunt.
What Apple does say, however, in that same email is that Epic now is loudly and publicly indicating that they don't like the terms of the contract they're seeking to enter in with Apple, so Apple, rightfully so, asks why they should trust Sweeny this time around.

Epic essentially replies with a "Just trust me, bro" and Apple('s lawyers) basically reply with an "LOL, no."

Here we are, Epic playing the victim with the same grace and useless arguments as a shoplifter that was banned from Walmart. One that argues that the doors automatically opened for him and that he was greeted when walking in, so that must mean that he was welcome to come back.

With the way they worded their announcement on February 16 I figured this was what was going on, and sure enough, it was exactly as I thought. Not only that, but they're arrogant enough to post the emails that prove this timeline and people are eating it up.

Tune in next time for the next stunt by Epic.

Please look up the concept of "standing" in law. It would be a real catch-22 by your standards for the choices to be:

1. Epic accepts Apple's terms of service, some of which they believe to be illegal. But Epic accepted them so tough ****.
2. Epic never accepts Apple's terms of service, never launches anything on the App Store. Now Epic has no standing in court because they aren't party to any sort of damage from Apple. Epic isn't allowed to sue for relief in court.

This is not how the legal system works. Choice 1 is only way forward for corrective action.